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To those seeking God though the bible...

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posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
reply to post by Wonders
 



and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

And what if your "neighbor" was a sinner? What if your neighbor was apt to be hated by God?


To wait till you are on your death bed to save your skin is not the same as cutting off your hand for the sake of a sinless lifestye.

Why should it matter? As long as we find ourselves in the vineyard, be it 9 o'clock in the morning or 6 o'clock in the evening, and aslong as we work, should we get the same pay? That's what Jesus says, any way.


We as believers are to hate that which God hates and to love that which God loves, to have the "mind of Christ", so to speak.

You mean to advocate Religious Communism... So much for free-will.

If God wishes to send me to Hell because he does not love me for loving everyone, even the murderers. Then so be it.

If God does not love me for being his Child, though I have sinned countless times. So be it.

If God can not prove to me that He is the "better man" by turning His cheek and forgiving me. So be it.

I wish not to be in any Kingdom that is subject to the likes of an unforgiving Lord.


My only reason in this thread is to help you, and others, open your minds. If you believe me to be sinful, or misguided, to try and attempt this, that is fine. However, I will stand by this statement until I die (just as you will stand by your Bible), even if it means my eternal damnation.

"God's love is unconditional, He loves all of his children, and He will always forgive them, no matter what."
Open my mind? When it comes to God and His Word, like any sensitive information, it's best to learn from the source. Unfortunately, others aren't so different than you are, I read your post on another thread, the one where you said that the bible is tedious or boring or something of that nature, which is too bad because once you connect the dots the picture comes together, and as the bible says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish" -Proverbs 29:18.
I'd like to know from where you derived your last quote, I hope you're not trying to decieve others into thinking it's directly from the bible.
Jesus was the son of God, he considers those who do God's will as his family, as God's own. Mark 3:35 - For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
And as for loving our neighbors as ourselves:
Luke 10:29 -The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Is there an answer for that? yes, but you'll have to look it up. I'm outta time for now. brb




posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by Wonders
Open my mind? When it comes to God and His Word, like any sensitive information, it's best to learn from the source. Unfortunately, others aren't so different than you are, I read your post on another thread, the one where you said that the bible is tedious or boring or something of that nature, which is too bad because once you connect the dots the picture comes together, and as the bible says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish" -Proverbs 29:18.
I'd like to know from where you derived your last quote, I hope you're not trying to decieve others into thinking it's directly from the bible.
Jesus was the son of God, he considers those who do God's will as his family, as God's own. Mark 3:35 - For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
And as for loving our neighbors as ourselves:
Luke 10:29 -The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Is there an answer for that? yes, but you'll have to look it up. I'm outta time for now. brb


I would like you to quote me where I said The Bible was "tedious or boring or something of that nature" because I never said that. Go ahead, however.

As for that "quote", it was, as I said, a statement. A statement of mine, hence the quotations. And please, I would never want people to associate that statement with the Bible. Then they would assume it came from the same "hateful, wrathful God".

Also, do not assume I know nothing of The Bible:

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Luke 10:36-37 NIV.

Oh, I'm sorry. Does being a "neighbor" mean being "merciful"? Should we advocate mercy? Practice mercy? Just like your Heavenly Father, who be so merciful?

Mercy is a broad term that refers to benevolence, forgiveness and kindness in a variety of ethical, religious, social and legal contexts

I'm sure you know what it means.

Jesus tells him to be like the merciful man, and I'm sure (since that is a teaching of Jesus) that he would tell that to everyone.

Yet God is not merciful, or at least only to those whom he deems worthy. So, why would Jesus tell us to be merciful when God is not? After all, we are created in His image.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by RevelationGeneration
 


There is no duality to God! Heaven forbid. Let's let God solely be God, shall we? We cannot describe God with emotions such as love and hate. God's "love" does not equate to human love. God does not behave as a human behaves. Duality exists in man, but it does not and cannot be attributed to an omniscient God that is suppose to represent the divine perfection we strive towards. God is not perfect if you dualize.

Though we are made in the divine image and likeness, please don't mistake God's eye is in the form of our eyes or the divine hand is like ours. The mind cannot know God directly because the true essence of God cannot be grasped by anything but God. The divine spark, yes is within us. So that when we act in goodness, this spark grows into a flame, and enlightenment brings us closer to ascending when we pass from the material world.

You know before their was the word, there was first thought. When thought attempts to contemplate the true essence of God, you will either become confused or you will cease to be and return to the divine source - God. This is why we attempt to make the intangible, tangible. The unknowable, knowable. When we humanize a concept that is NOT human, this is an attempt to cleave to God. Our soul yearns to return to it's source because it is the perfected state of being. We all fall and are born into this world. We experience sin because this is a dualized existence. Through our experiences and choices between good and bad we learn to rid ourselves of sin. Sin is a part of the experience of our soul trying to ascend back up to where we originate. After all, without sin how would we know what is good?

You know the concept of sin is older than Judaism or Christianity. These concepts grew out of Pagan theologies that spoke of moral ethics and spiritual cleansing. Christianity is not the only religion that is preoccupied with sin. Every religion in the world deals with sin and strives toward ethically strong morals. Evil is not a figment of the imagination. It's apparent in the social justices of the past and today. It is a very real thing. We know that St. John spoke quite a bit about sin. In original Greek the actual translation is "to miss the mark". So when he spoke of sin it is often argued that he meant sin in the broadest sense of the term, not personal sin. He meant disobeying the law. Of course Sin happens. Sin is real, and somewhere along the lines humanity has definitely missed the mark, because we keep killing, amassing wealth greedily, and so on and so forth. We daily sin against Mother Earth when we strip and mine her natural resources committing genocide against not only mankind, but billions of God's other creations.

Even Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, and Atheists would not disagree that there is sin in the world. Even they would not disagree that moral ethics are of utmost importance to humankind. To not acknowledge evil in the world would be to let it run rampant in the streets unconstrained. So even the old belief systems understood the concept of sin. There is no need to feel anyone needs a lesson on human consciousness and depravity. However, we cannot prescribe God with a human consciousness can we? We cannot assign God with depravity without corrupting the very thing that is suppose to be incorruptible.

Note to Pagans - Don't yell at me! I know that many feel a particular sore point with the guilt that Christianity uses to instill fear, by some of it's adherents. But guilt is a natural emotion that helps us distinguish right from wrong. However, pretending that sin or evil is just a Christian notion that has no bearing on Neo-Paganism and Wicca is just asinine. There is evil in the world. People miss the mark of moral behavior all the time! Even pagans. Just as Jesus said "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand," what can be taken away with that is that he was standing up to the sins (evil) of the world during that time and it's established oppressive rule of those times. It's like saying, "Hey wake up! Look at your world and what your are doing to one another." In layman's terms. It was a message meant to garner hope that would motivate people to rise up and fight against tyranny and evil that we commit against one another. After all, even today, someone is going to have to fight for what is right and good. Today, Mother Earth (Goddess) is threatened by our greed and selfishness. As environmental awareness, animal rights, and human equality are the cornerstones of Neo-Paganism and Wicca - we can't afford to ignore how we sin against our own Goddess and her natural laws of existence. Sin and evil is a commonality we all are faced with, and our fight against it is one of the things that should band people of all creeds together. Not separate it.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan

Originally posted by Wonders
Open my mind? When it comes to God and His Word, like any sensitive information, it's best to learn from the source. Unfortunately, others aren't so different than you are, I read your post on another thread, the one where you said that the bible is tedious or boring or something of that nature, which is too bad because once you connect the dots the picture comes together, and as the bible says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish" -Proverbs 29:18.
I'd like to know from where you derived your last quote, I hope you're not trying to decieve others into thinking it's directly from the bible.
Jesus was the son of God, he considers those who do God's will as his family, as God's own. Mark 3:35 - For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
And as for loving our neighbors as ourselves:
Luke 10:29 -The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Is there an answer for that? yes, but you'll have to look it up. I'm outta time for now. brb


I would like you to quote me where I said The Bible was "tedious or boring or something of that nature" because I never said that. Go ahead, however.

As for that "quote", it was, as I said, a statement. A statement of mine, hence the quotations. And please, I would never want people to associate that statement with the Bible. Then they would assume it came from the same "hateful, wrathful God".

Also, do not assume I know nothing of The Bible:

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Luke 10:36-37 NIV.

Oh, I'm sorry. Does being a "neighbor" mean being "merciful"? Should we advocate mercy? Practice mercy? Just like your Heavenly Father, who be so merciful?

Mercy is a broad term that refers to benevolence, forgiveness and kindness in a variety of ethical, religious, social and legal contexts

I'm sure you know what it means.

Jesus tells him to be like the merciful man, and I'm sure (since that is a teaching of Jesus) that he would tell that to everyone.

Yet God is not merciful, or at least only to those whom he deems worthy. So, why would Jesus tell us to be merciful when God is not? After all, we are created in His image.
Well I looked for it but I couldn't find it, oh well. Where did I say that God was not merciful? Belivers of God are told not to expect kind treatment from others, you call yourself a good man, I never boasted of myself, though the way you write, I would hate you be at your mercy.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Wonders
Well I looked for it but I couldn't find it, oh well. Where did I say that God was not merciful? Belivers of God are told not to expect kind treatment from others, you call yourself a good man, I never boasted of myself, though the way you write, I would hate you be at your mercy.


Because if God was merciful, he would turn his cheek to all those who do wrong.

"You have sin and I have forgiven you, and though you have sinned again, I will still forgive you and accept you."

That would be mercy.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan

Originally posted by Wonders
Well I looked for it but I couldn't find it, oh well. Where did I say that God was not merciful? Belivers of God are told not to expect kind treatment from others, you call yourself a good man, I never boasted of myself, though the way you write, I would hate you be at your mercy.


Because if God was merciful, he would turn his cheek to all those who do wrong.

"You have sin and I have forgiven you, and though you have sinned again, I will still forgive you and accept you."

That would be mercy.


Alright well I've got a couple scriptures that come to mind, I think I'll refrain. Thank you for spending time with me here at ATS, this feels like the first time I've been taken seriously on this site. I'm tired but no matter how life seems for me I just can't stay away from the bible. When I was at the beginning stage of reading it, I too felt offended by what I read and there were many things I couldn't wrap my mind around and it frustrated me and annoyed me that I could not understand who what where when and why. What drove me was my past experiences, because I do belive that God and Jesus are real because of what I've been through. I am not by any means through with my obsession with learning about God and life through God's relevant word. Really, I guess deep down I'm just hoping to find hope because there's got to be more than this, life in the wilderness.

And by the way, I've taken the same stance as you for quite some time now, that if I get thrown in hell, so be it. I don't really have hope for heaven because I am not worthy to go there, but I do know that God hasn't seen fit to put me in the ground just yet so there hopefully is some hope.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: to add



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 03:14 AM
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reply to post by Wonders
 


Good luck to you, friend.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 06:05 AM
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Originally posted by RevelationGeneration

There are just as many non-christian sources for the existence of Jesus than the life of julius caesar

And 4 times as many textual sources Jesus life and existence than julius caesar.



But none of it is contemporary. Of course, early Christians are going to write about Jesus, they believe in him and in the stories that were past down from even earlier Christians...

and there is no good reason to believe that the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, were actually written by by them, because this was written long after the time Jesus should have existed, at LEAST 20 years later...

Josephus wrote about Jesus, this is true, but it isn't contemporary because he was writing about Jesus in 93 AD, 93 years after the After Death (of Jesus). So that is not trustworthy, just like a Christian writing about Jesus today wouldn't be trust worthy...

The only good evidence would be contemporary evidence, something that was actually written around the time that Jesus was alive...

There are many historians that lived around the time of Jesus that could've written about him but none of them did. You would think something like walking on water, or feeding many people with 2 fish is something that would make the news and be written about...

And don't use the bible as evidence, because the earliest book of the bible was written at least, 20 years later...



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 06:23 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 



If you believe in the Exodus fable, then you should know that what Yahweh demanded was complete and utter genocide against the inhabitants of Canaan.


The key to understanding that is Genesis 6 with the Nephillim and Rephaim. If one doesn't understand what happened in Genesis 6 they'll never understand most of that narrative later in the Bible. What is interesting to note is the two areas the Hebrews failed to eradicate the Nephillim and Rephaim in their day is the same areas that give them such bitter trouble today:

West Bank and Gaza.


I don't accept the genetically motivated genocidal, tribalistic, obsessed with Jerusalem Yahweh of the Old Testament as the god of the World.


Genesis 6 is your key to that.


edit on 29-3-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical

The key to understanding that is Genesis 6 with the Nephillim and Rephaim. If one doesn't understand what happened in Genesis 6 they'll never understand most of that narrative later in the Bible. What is interesting to note is the two areas the Hebrews failed to eradicate the Nephillim and Rephaim in their day is the same areas that give them such bitter trouble today:

West Bank and Gaza.

So instead of following the OPs advice, to search the New Testament for a possible view of a better, more accepting God, you wallow in doctrines derived from the Books of Enoch.

There are two major interpretations of Genesis 6 mentioned by wikipedia:


Genesis 6 - two interpretations

There are effectively two views[15] regarding the identity of the Nephilim, which follow on from alternative views about the identity of the sons of God:

Offspring of Seth — The Qumran (Dead Sea Scroll) fragment 4Q417 (4QInstruction) contains the earliest known reference to the phrase "children of Seth", stating that God has condemned them for their rebellion. Other early references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain, are found in rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible.
Offspring of angels — A number of early sources refer to the "sons of heaven" as "Angels". The earliest such references[16] seem to be in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Greek, and Aramaic Enochic literature, and in certain Ge'ez manuscripts of 1 Enoch (mss A-Q) and Jubilees[17] used by western scholars in modern editions of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha.[18] Also some Christian apologists shared this opinion, like Tertullian and especially Lactantius. However, "Angels" in this context has sometimes been considered to be a sarcastic epithet for the offspring of Seth who rebelled[citation needed] (see above). The earliest statement in a secondary commentary explicitly interpreting this to mean that angelic beings mated with humans, can be traced to the rabbinical Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, and it has since become especially commonplace in modern-day Christian commentaries.

I grew up in a tradition that held to the first interpretation, and was quite frankly shocked when I learned of the second interpretation.


Personally, I take a view that it refers to such common mythological stories of the gods mating with mortals, such as when Zeus had sex with the mortal woman Alcmene, while disguised as her husband, and thus was conceived Heracles, destined to become "a hero of old, a man of renown " Heracles was not unknown to the areas of Palestine. Even as far back as the Trojan War, Heracles had a major cult shrine very close to what later became the Hittite Empire, just to the North.

Wait a minute! Wasn't Solomon called the "son of God?" Psalm 2:7. Hmm! Solomon son of Bathsheba, former wife of Uriah the Hittite. The Israelites did indeed take on the notions of the "divine right of kings" just like the other nations.
---------------
So you believe in the command


Deuteronomy 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when Yahweh your God has given you rest from all your enemies all around, in the land which Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance to possess it, that you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under the sky; you shall not forget.

Amalek isn't some mysterious demigod monster. He's a descendant of Abraham and Isaac.


Genesis 36:9 This is the history of the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir: 10 these are the names of Esau’s sons: Eliphaz, the son of Adah, the wife of Esau; and Reuel, the son of Basemath, the wife of Esau. 11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz. 12 Timna was concubine to Eliphaz, Esau’s son; and she bore to Eliphaz Amalek. These are the sons of Adah, Esau’s wife.

So do you endorse the genocide of the children of Abraham, as long as you take the militant rabbis as the determiners of ethnic identity, calling Palestinians Amalek, and pronouncing their doom?

Where in the Christian New Testament do you get such notions? Can you quote anything from Jesus to the effect that ongoing genocide by his followers is a command?
edit on 29-3-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Well said Pthena...

Although i didn't actually say "search the scriptures" to find a better God...

I gave the reader the best place to start...




posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by Akragon

I must admit that I was feeling guilty last night after re-reading your OP,


BEWARE of religious people and what they tell you the bible actually says...

Read it for yourself...

I spent hours and hours agonizing about whether I was one of the religious people you mentioned.
Then I decided finally to just risk it, that if you had a problem with what I wrote you'ld let me know.

The reason I posted to this thread, rather than "Christian doctrines vs scripture" by sk0rpi0n is that I approved of your premise more. His premise seemed to be that the whole Bible can be harmonized to reach correct understanding. A theory that destroyed my mind over several years by attempting it.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Akragon

I must admit that I was feeling guilty last night after re-reading your OP,


BEWARE of religious people and what they tell you the bible actually says...

Read it for yourself...

I spent hours and hours agonizing about whether I was one of the religious people you mentioned.
Then I decided finally to just risk it, that if you had a problem with what I wrote you'ld let me know.

The reason I posted to this thread, rather than "Christian doctrines vs scripture" by sk0rpi0n is that I approved of your premise more. His premise seemed to be that the whole Bible can be harmonized to reach correct understanding. A theory that destroyed my mind over several years by attempting it.


No need to stress about that statement my friend... you are not the type i was warning against...

I was refering to those that "condem others to hell" for not following a certian dogmatic view...

More specifically... IF you look at the original post... page 1... You'll see one member Call me a "false teacher"... people like that member are the reason i made that statement... Im not teaching or preaching anything... Im simply giving people an honest suggestion, even a means to understand what the true God in the bible is about...

The one(s) mentioned in the OT are not the same as the one Jesus spoke about... I would like people to see that distinction... there are only hints of the true God in the OT... most of which have to do with prophecy of Jesus.

This thread was not meant to offend... but i expected the fanatics to come flying at me from all directions as i stated in the OP...

I can't change the fact that "christians" will take offence to what i say... its just unfortunate they can't see that im "pro Jesus"... but even he said "people will hate you for my name sake"


edit on 29-3-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 



So instead of following the OPs advice, to search the New Testament for a possible view of a better, more accepting God, you wallow in doctrines derived from the Books of Enoch.


Books of Enoch, no. The ONLY thing the book of Enoch is referred to is to reference what they call the Bene haElohyim. And to also show that phrase is used exclusively for angels. Jesus declared Moses wrote Genesis, and if Jesus is a liar then we're all still dead in our sins.

Every time a huge giant skeleton is found it's whisked away to a museum dungeon never to see the light of day again. RESEARCH that fact. The "lines of Seth" argument was invented because Christians believers were being mocked ridiculously for the angel view of Genesis 6. The LXX translates Genesis 6 as angels in the Greek.



1 of 12



1 of 7



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Have you considered the possibility that Moses was Evil... and under the influence of an "evil" spirit which he considered God?

Numbers 31


15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.





posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


seems like that line of thinking continued all the way up into the Salem witch trials?

We've reformed the Catholic Church when we started nailing reformations on the doors...

Moses was the law giver... they are extremely decent laws.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by SisyphusRide
reply to post by Akragon
 


seems like that line of thinking continued all the way up into the Salem witch trials?

We've reformed the Catholic Church when we started nailing reformations on the doors...

Moses was the law giver... they are extremely decent laws.



There was nothing decent about mosaic/levitical law...

This is why Jesus outed those laws and gave his own... directly from God.




posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Didn't Jesus say that he wasn't removing any of the laws?


Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.





posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by Glass
 


You should probably re-read his words if you believe he didn't abolish most of the levitical laws...

He was speaking of the 10 in that statement... not the law of Moses...

The 10 are subject to the two that he gave... that is what he was talking about...

Not levitical law.

Heres my thread that is related to this issue....

www.abovetopsecret.com...


edit on 30-3-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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well I tell ya... it's not in the Math, that's a bit kinda strange



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