To those seeking God though the bible...

reply to post by ErroneousDylan


God hates sin and loves holiness. He has the ability to love and hate. Humans were made in the image of God and we have feelings of hate and love to don't we?

Among the things God hates are idolatry (Deuteronomy 12:31; 16:22) and those who do evil (Psalm 5:4-6; 11:5). Proverbs 6:16-19 outlines seven things the Lord hates: pride, lying, murder, evil plots, those who love evil, false witness, and troublemakers. Notice that this passage does not include just things that God hates; it includes people as well.

God does not "love everyone all the time no matter what they do," Nothing could be further from the truth. God loves righteousness and holiness and hates sin and evil. If He did not, He would not be God.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan

Originally posted by Wonders
Revelation 3:19 -I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.

Ah, but that is a contradiction. To truly love someone, something even, is to accept them for what they are. If God were to truly love us then he would already view as as perfect because he accepted us, enabling his love.

Unless you are speaking for God in which he is saying: "I love you, but I would love you more if you were this way."

As if love can be measured. :S

Or perhaps God means: "I love you enough to correct in you what I think is wrong."

Which would come off a little OCD to me, but I'm not judging. However, I do think it is erroneous.

It sounds like: "I love you, but I don't accept you, therefore you will be punished. Then I will accept you, even though I would have to accept you in order to love you in the first place. So, I guess, I don't actually love you but after I punish you and correct your ways, I will love you, because then you will be perfect in my eyes and I can finally accept you."

Sounds like a great father to me

God does not discipline and correct everyone, He does not accept everyone, therefore He does not love everyone.

Leviticus 20:23 -And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Psalm 5:5 -The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5 -The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16, 19 -These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Hosea 9:15 -I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings.

Malachi 1:3 -And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13 -As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

1 Samuel 16:7 -But the LORD said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

There is no shock that you believe that God's way is "erronous".
Proverbs 16:2 -All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

God does not accept everyone.
1 Chronicles 28:9 -"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

God does not condone sin.
Proverbs 24:12 -If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?

God is not everyone's father. God is not a sugar daddy come to save you from the consequences of your choices, he's here to give you a choice, and you will get what you deserve based on what you chose, a life of sin, or a life of obedience.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

In genesis 18 God appears with two angels and speaks face to face with Abraham. God the Father is a Spirit and Jesus says in the NT that "no man" had ever seen Him at any time.

So who did Abraham speak to if it wasn't God the Father?

Jesus!

Yuuuup. And I love that interaction, it's hilarious. Jesus tells Abraham Sarah will conceive and bear a child and she over hears them talking from inside the tent, and laughs inside herself.

Jesus: "Why did you laugh?"

Sarah: "I didn't laugh."

Jesus: "I know,.. but you did laugh."

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by AkragonConsidering you're read it twice and still haven't figured out what i said is Crystal Clear... You obviously have some reading comprehension issues...

How about those personal attack comments...? Tit for tat?? I comprehend the above quote just fine - you are down here in the ad hominem with the rest of us.

OK, I took a look at Matthew, chapter 3. Fine, but what difference does it make to start there? You may think you are crystal clear, but I think not.

Thinking more about it, I think you wish to skip over the begats so that you can present a spiritual Jesus of not-human-flesh. You're a Gnostic, right?

No im not Gnostic, or anything else for that matter...

You started with the personal attacks... i simply give what i get...

I suggested people skip the geneology because it does not help you understand him at all...

People could start at Matthew 1... it doesn't matter, as long as that book is the starting place when seeking God through the bible...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Wow that's absurd. Consider what Elijah (Eliyahu) means in Aramaic. He lived long before the Babylonian exile.

Elijah means "Mighty is Yah" or "God is Yah". How do we know when he lived? A post exile book tells us.

You do make a good point though, there's no record of him telling the Northern Kingdom inhabitants that they had to go to Jerusalem only to worship the clan god Yahweh. Evidently, there must have been some place of worship to Yahweh that he recognized as legit.

I Kings 19:
15 Yahweh said to him, “Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus. When you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael to be king over Syria. 16 You shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi to be king over Israel; and you shall anoint Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah to be prophet in your place. 17 It shall happen, that he who escapes from the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and he who escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet will I leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth which has not kissed him.”

Maybe on mount Carmel? But then the later reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah( a work approved by Yahweh), destroying every high place and alter not in Jerusalem, would have also torn down Elijah's alter, and abominated it by burning human bones on it. Odd.

reply to post by Akragon

i simply give what i get

Doesn't Jesus teach to turn the cheek?

I suggested people skip the geneology because it does not help you understand him at all

How is that so? I think if you were to truly love Jesus, i think it is an act of reverence to understand his identity, and that genealogy/history as is that is what provides insight on to God's plan through His Son

reply to post by pthena


Eliyahu means

"My God is YHWH"

/facepalm


Only the groves were on the high places.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by ErroneousDylan

 

God hates sin and loves holiness. He has the ability to love and hate. Humans were made in the image of God and we have feelings of hate and love to don't we?

Among the things God hates are idolatry (Deuteronomy 12:31; 16:22) and those who do evil (Psalm 5:4-6; 11:5). Proverbs 6:16-19 outlines seven things the Lord hates: pride, lying, murder, evil plots, those who love evil, false witness, and troublemakers. Notice that this passage does not include just things that God hates; it includes people as well.

God does not "love everyone all the time no matter what they do," Nothing could be further from the truth. God loves righteousness and holiness and hates sin and evil. If He did not, He would not be God.

Humans were made in the image of God, but we hardly live the image of God. Hatred is such a limiting downfall to Man. The fact that anyone would say God is limited by the same faults as Man is absurd. The all-powerful, all-creating, all-knowing God would really let Himself be limited to such things as hatred?

So, you say Man was created in God's image. Well, hatred is a form of negativity. It begets anger which develops from sorrow. All these negative things do harm to the body of Man. I don't need to cite the studies done to show that negativity does harm to the body but if you require it, I gladly will.

What that would mean is, we are created in God's imagine, and we should do as God does, correct? So, since God hates these people, we should also hate "evil doers" (sounds like a villain in a comic book, no?), as God does? Meaning, God apparently wants us to do harm to our own body?

I think not:
Corinthians 6:19-20
Corinthians 3:16-17
Leviticus 19:28

Surely we shouldn't do harm to our temples by creating such negativity in ourselves.

If God does not love everyone all the time then he is not a father. He is simply a creator, and should not bare the title Father.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

Doesn't Jesus teach to turn the cheek?

I am not Jesus...

I hit back when people attack... something i've always struggled with...

How is that so? I think if you were to truly love Jesus, i think it is an act of reverence to understand his identity, and that genealogy/history as is that is what provides insight on to God's plan through His Son

He identifies himself as "the son of God"... the geneology doesn't drive that fact home... his words do...

If you seek an act of reverence... Do as he asked us to do...

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

since you have obviously deluded yourself into blindly believing some radical claims by atheists without reading it or studying the word for your self.

You assume very much.

1) I've hardly read anything by atheists when compared to what I've read of various believers, about 1 to 40.

2) By "the word", I'm assuming you mean the Bible. I've read that library quite extensively, as evidenced by my quite accurate summation of post exile writings, which is my own summation, and not something borrowed from atheists.

reply to post by Akragon

He identifies himself as "the son of God"... the geneology doesn't drive that fact home... his words do...

Matthew is a Jew writing to Jews, so he begins His genealogy with Abraham, which all Jews care about. John presents Christ as the Son of God so He begins with God. Luke is writing to gentiles and presents Christ as the "Son of Man" so he begins Christ's genealogy with Adam.

Look up what the rabbis call a "remez". You're missing extremely important details that on the surface appear trivial or contradictory.

A remez is basically a sign that reads: "Dig Here"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Only the groves were on the high places.

II Kings 17:
9 The children of Israel did secretly things that were not right against Yahweh their God: and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fortified city; 10 and they set them up pillars and Asherim on every high hill, and under every green tree; 11 and there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the nations whom Yahweh carried away before them; and they worked wicked things to provoke Yahweh to anger;

I'm guessing that a high place built inside a city is something other than a grove, perhaps a ziggurat.

Wait: there's more:

28 So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and lived in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear Yahweh. 29 However every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities in which they lived.
. . .
32 So they feared Yahweh, and made to them from among themselves priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. 33 They feared Yahweh, and served their own gods, after the ways of the nations from among whom they had been carried away.

Then there's an extensive post exile note:

41 So these nations feared Yahweh, and served their engraved images. Their children likewise, and their children’s children, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

The part between vs. 33 and 40 is the inditement against the Samaritans to the effect that they aren't really Israelites since they don't exclusively fear Yahweh.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
Humans were made in the image of God, but we hardly live the image of God. Hatred is such a limiting downfall to Man. The fact that anyone would say God is limited by the same faults as Man is absurd. The all-powerful, all-creating, all-knowing God would really let Himself be limited to such things as hatred?

So, you say Man was created in God's image. Well, hatred is a form of negativity. It begets anger which develops from sorrow. All these negative things do harm to the body of Man. I don't need to cite the studies done to show that negativity does harm to the body but if you require it, I gladly will.

What that would mean is, we are created in God's imagine, and we should do as God does, correct? So, since God hates these people, we should also hate "evil doers" (sounds like a villain in a comic book, no?), as God does? Meaning, God apparently wants us to do harm to our own body?

I think not:
Corinthians 6:19-20
Corinthians 3:16-17
Leviticus 19:28

Surely we shouldn't do harm to our temples by creating such negativity in ourselves.

If God does not love everyone all the time then he is not a father. He is simply a creator, and should not bare the title Father.

edit on 28-3-2012 by ErroneousDylan because: (no reason given)

Matthew 18:6 -But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Matthew 18:8-9 -So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

I have no problem with you referring to God as a Creator, because he is, but you are right. God is not everyone's father. Here Jesus says so himself:
John 8:44 -For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

reply to post by Wonders


Yet in technicality he is everyone's father, since he created us all. He just does not "act" like everyone's father apparently. Any way, count me out. I see no glory in a father that does not love and accept everyone of the children he created.

Of course, this isn't how I view God any way. As for you and the other's beliefs, that's what you can count me out of. Enjoy devoting your life to deity of hate. God, the Hateful.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Only the groves were on the high places.

II Kings 17:
9 The children of Israel did secretly things that were not right against Yahweh their God: and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fortified city; 10 and they set them up pillars and Asherim on every high hill, and under every green tree; 11 and there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the nations whom Yahweh carried away before them; and they worked wicked things to provoke Yahweh to anger;

I'm guessing that a high place built inside a city is something other than a grove, perhaps a ziggurat.

YHWH told them NOT to, they did anyways. Reading the OT it's quite obvious the children of Israel didn't do as they were told. That's why they've been exiled time and time again. The idol worshipers were in the north and they were wiped out.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
reply to post by Wonders

 

Yet in technicality he is everyone's father, since he created us all. He just does not "act" like everyone's father apparently. Any way, count me out. I see no glory in a father that does not love and accept everyone of the children he created.

Of course, this isn't how I view God any way. As for you and the other's beliefs, that's what you can count me out of. Enjoy devoting your life to deity of hate. God, the Hateful.

No one is trying to count you in.

2 Peter 2:21 -It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.

Revelation 3:15 -I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

Mark 14:21 -For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!"

God Gives Grace to the Humble and God Resists the Proud - James 4:6

Ezekiel 18:24 -"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Hebrews 10:26 -If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

There are very many Christians who believe that God means for it to be impossible to stop sinning, they really do believe that they will sin until they die and actually do think that they'll get rewarded with eternal life for it, so long as they believe in Jesus' existance and honor Him with their lips. Untrue. Many are better off having never been born, many deliberately keep on sinning, many betray Jesus with a kiss, too many err because they know not the scriptures nor the power of God. This is one pill you don't want to take on a whim. That is why Jesus said, "Do not begin until you count the cost."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

YHWH told them NOT to, they did anyways. Reading the OT it's quite obvious the children of Israel didn't do as they were told.

If you believe in the Exodus fable, then you should know that what Yahweh demanded was complete and utter genocide against the inhabitants of Canaan. Complete and utter. Or else!!! "I will do to you what I'm telling you to do to them!!!" Of course, that fable was probably invented during Josiah's reforms, and later embellished by post exile writers, to account for the rejection of Samaritan help in building the temple in Jerusalem.

That's why they've been exiled time and time again. The idol worshipers were in the north and they were wiped out.

No, there was an exchange: Some taken to other provinces of the empire and replaced by people from other provinces

I don't accept the genetically motivated genocidal, tribalistic, obsessed with Jerusalem Yahweh of the Old Testament as the god of the World. Evidently the OP doesn't either. Can you at least try to find a better, more universal God? That's the point of the thread, if I understand it correctly.

Originally posted by Wonders

No one is trying to count you in.

2 Peter 2:21 -It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.

Revelation 3:15 -I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

Mark 14:21 -For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!"

God Gives Grace to the Humble and God Resists the Proud - James 4:6

Ezekiel 18:24 -"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Hebrews 10:26 -If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

There are very many Christians who believe that God means for it to be impossible to stop sinning, they really do believe that they will sin until they die and actually do think that they'll get rewarded with eternal life for it, so long as they believe in Jesus' existance and honor Him with their lips. Untrue. Many are better off having never been born, many deliberately keep on sinning, many betray Jesus with a kiss, too many err because they know not the scriptures nor the power of God. This is one pill you don't want to take on a whim. That is why Jesus said, "Do not begin until you count the cost."

Better off never being born, huh? Why where they created then? Too many err because they know not the power of God? And is that their fault? Hm? Is it their fault that they were raised without religion and without anyone teaching them about Jesus? Ando so, since they didn't get the chance on their own to learn about it they will be punished? Shame on you.

What about Matthew 20:1-16? Should we arrive late, we still get the same pay. So, how about we sin our entire life and then at the last second of our life we repent and arrive to the vineyard. Sounds logical to me.

I'm rather ashamed of myself for partaking in this religious babble, as it is usually entirely irrational. However, the lack of sympathy you, your brother's, and the image you have created of God is madness. No God, who created all of this Universe, that houses all his children, who is so mighty and powerful, would stoop to a humanistic level so low as to turn his back on one of his kin. This is absurd. If I had a son, I would love him no matter what wrongdoing he did. No matter what. Because I am a good man. The image of God you cherish is not an image of a good man, it is the image of a wicked man. God is not wicked.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan

Originally posted by Wonders

No one is trying to count you in.

2 Peter 2:21 -It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.

Revelation 3:15 -I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

Mark 14:21 -For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!"

God Gives Grace to the Humble and God Resists the Proud - James 4:6

Ezekiel 18:24 -"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Hebrews 10:26 -If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

There are very many Christians who believe that God means for it to be impossible to stop sinning, they really do believe that they will sin until they die and actually do think that they'll get rewarded with eternal life for it, so long as they believe in Jesus' existance and honor Him with their lips. Untrue. Many are better off having never been born, many deliberately keep on sinning, many betray Jesus with a kiss, too many err because they know not the scriptures nor the power of God. This is one pill you don't want to take on a whim. That is why Jesus said, "Do not begin until you count the cost."

Better off never being born, huh? Why where they created then? Too many err because they know not the power of God? And is that their fault? Hm? Is it their fault that they were raised without religion and without anyone teaching them about Jesus? Ando so, since they didn't get the chance on their own to learn about it they will be punished? Shame on you.

What about Matthew 20:1-16? Should we arrive late, we still get the same pay. So, how about we sin our entire life and then at the last second of our life we repent and arrive to the vineyard. Sounds logical to me.

I'm rather ashamed of myself for partaking in this religious babble, as it is usually entirely irrational. However, the lack of sympathy you, your brother's, and the image you have created of God is madness. No God, who created all of this Universe, that houses all his children, who is so mighty and powerful, would stoop to a humanistic level so low as to turn his back on one of his kin. This is absurd. If I had a son, I would love him no matter what wrongdoing he did. No matter what. Because I am a good man. The image of God you cherish is not an image of a good man, it is the image of a wicked man. God is not wicked.

We were created for good works, to bear good fruit, to do the will of God. Yes, Jesus said that our mistake is not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.
Matthew 2:29 -Jesus replied, "Your mistake is that you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God.

God appoints His followers to lead others to obedience to Him, an axe is laid to the root of EVERY tree, and every tree that does not bear good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire. It is the work of every believer to first count the cost, to be equipped with the necessary knowledge that saves, and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. When we seek to learn we will find it, and when we have found it, pay it forward.

1Corinthians 9:16 -For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

Matthew 9:37-38 -He said to his disciples, "The harvest is great, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."

Matthew 12:30 -He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

Matthew 4:19 -"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

We must be willing to give up our lives for this belief, he who tries to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for righteousness sake will find it. To wait till you are on your death bed to save your skin is not the same as cutting off your hand for the sake of a sinless lifestye. People have asked God to spare their loved ones for more time for the sake of repentance, and God spared them but God knows the condition of their hearts and he will be the one to discern.

There is no sympathy for the devil. God has prepared Satan and his followers eternity, torment. We as believers are to hate that which God hates and to love that which God loves, to have the "mind of Christ", so to speak.

I cherish God as I understand Him, it's no mistake that you are here either.

reply to post by Wonders

and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

And what if your "neighbor" was a sinner? What if your neighbor was apt to be hated by God?

To wait till you are on your death bed to save your skin is not the same as cutting off your hand for the sake of a sinless lifestye.

Why should it matter? As long as we find ourselves in the vineyard, be it 9 o'clock in the morning or 6 o'clock in the evening, and aslong as we work, should we get the same pay? That's what Jesus says, any way.

We as believers are to hate that which God hates and to love that which God loves, to have the "mind of Christ", so to speak.

You mean to advocate Religious Communism... So much for free-will.

If God wishes to send me to Hell because he does not love me for loving everyone, even the murderers. Then so be it.

If God does not love me for being his Child, though I have sinned countless times. So be it.

If God can not prove to me that He is the "better man" by turning His cheek and forgiving me. So be it.

I wish not to be in any Kingdom that is subject to the likes of an unforgiving Lord.


My only reason in this thread is to help you, and others, open your minds. If you believe me to be sinful, or misguided, to try and attempt this, that is fine. However, I will stand by this statement until I die (just as you will stand by your Bible), even if it means my eternal damnation.

"God's love is unconditional, He loves all of his children, and He will always forgive them, no matter what."