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Our chance to do the right thing

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posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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Now that the debates and arguments are all out in the open, between us, between the people everywhere talking about the recent death of Trayvon Martin, and the subsequent investigation, and the attitudes about George Zimmerman, and the efforts of conscientious observers of the "Stand Your Ground" law to get it repealed before more of these killings occurred, we all have a chance to do the right thing, finally, at last.


Let us take it.

Let us agree that vigilantism is wrong. Remember Bernie Goetz, and what it really looks like:

en.wikipedia.org...


Let us remember our manners. Two lives were destroyed in this recent incident, more if one considers the families and friends of these two. Other lives have been lost in very similar situations. That should matter first.
Skipping it makes us guilty when charged with not caring. Let us make sure that we are not.

Let us begin there, with mercy, with empathy, and act as humans, and even animals do, and simply regret, or let us not begin to debate or argue, persuade or philosophize as humans do, if we will not be human.

Beginning in wisdom will end in wisdom.

It is the lack of humane response which continues to skew debate and appear to be what blacks or any minority or indeed any victim of violent crime fears: hardened hearts.

It can never be about technicalities over instinct. It can never be about legalities over consideration.

Such cold-bloodedness is perverting our discussions, our vision, and our efforts at peace.

Let us refrain from allowing the conversations to be mixed freely between circumstances before, actions and responses during, and fears and allegations after.

Only then will our discussions bear good fruit, put out fires that should not be burning, and identify those who really do have racial or anger problems.

There are too many ready, willing, and more than primed to commit violence. All they are waiting for is a reason. Let us ensure that we rise above these primitive states to a place of fairness and a desire for fairness for all, even a hunger that all people feel safe, or at least not in danger because of race.

The fact that some do not, and are vocal, telling us how they feel, is a clear sign that we need to do more, get more involved, and project the goodwill we pat ourselves on the back for having.
It is no good if our fellow humans are not feeling or hearing it. We must make it real for them.

It is a chance to do the right thing.


edit on 27-3-2012 by Copperflower because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by Copperflower
 


"vigilantism is wrong" Hmmmm I'm not so sure about that, How many people have died in police custody? Should we do away with the police then? (I would say yes). I find it way more dangerous for any group to have the monopoly of the use of force.

Personally I think we could do the right thing and just stop these threads.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by Copperflower
 


"vigilantism is wrong" Hmmmm I'm not so sure about that, How many people have died in police custody? Should we do away with the police then? (I would say yes). I find it way more dangerous for any group to have the monopoly of the use of force.

Personally I think we could do the right thing and just stop these threads.
Amen! Self defense is a basic human right. Why should I have to surrender to thuggery? Why should I have to retreat in the face of evil?

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing

That is exactly your proposition. To force good men to do nothing. Do you support the advance of evil? You certainly seem to. You seem to support the position of TPTB. By disarming and further neutering good men, you make TPTB's job of destroying us easier.
Drop your kool aid and step away.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by DarthMuerte
 


There is a difference between defending yourself and property, and disobeying a direct order to not pursue. Had Zimmerman actually seen a crime occur, or had he been threatened by the kid before he called 911 he could claim self defense. But he inserted himself into the situation and escalated it. If a guy with a gun is going to follow me around at night, I too would act like I didn't know he was there, get the drop on him and try to take his gun, which IMHO, is probably what happened. In this case it was Martin who defending himself. Zimmerman was not officially part of the neighborhood watch program, and if he was he would have surely known they do not allow members to carry guns. Defending yourself is one thing, but actively pursuing someone who you deem suspicious when you are not a member of law enforcement is being a vigilante.

So does this mean in Florida I could take someone I hated for no good reason to a secluded area, gun him down, then claim self defense and get away with it? Because that's what it seems like to me.

I also wonder if Zimmerman yelled, "He's coming right for us!" Like in the South Park episode before he shot.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by DarkKnight76
reply to post by DarthMuerte
 


There is a difference between defending yourself and property, and disobeying a direct order to not pursue. Had Zimmerman actually seen a crime occur, or had he been threatened by the kid before he called 911 he could claim self defense. But he inserted himself into the situation and escalated it. If a guy with a gun is going to follow me around at night, I too would act like I didn't know he was there, get the drop on him and try to take his gun, which IMHO, is probably what happened. In this case it was Martin who defending himself. Zimmerman was not officially part of the neighborhood watch program, and if he was he would have surely known they do not allow members to carry guns. Defending yourself is one thing, but actively pursuing someone who you deem suspicious when you are not a member of law enforcement is being a vigilante.

So does this mean in Florida I could take someone I hated for no good reason to a secluded area, gun him down, then claim self defense and get away with it? Because that's what it seems like to me.

I also wonder if Zimmerman yelled, "He's coming right for us!" Like in the South Park episode before he shot.


You are saying that YOU would take the law into your own hands but that zimmerman could not... If you don't believe in vigilantism, why do you advocate it for yourself? If you believe what you say shouldn't you call the cops and tell them that someone is following you with a gun?

How would trayvon know he had a gun? I don't think he did to be honest else he wouldn't of attacked him...

Also if your area had a spate of break ins and the guilty parties kept getting away, wouldn't you want to do something? Wouldn't you want to follow someone that you believed to be suspicious?

All trayvon had to do was ask him what the hell he wanted! That's what I would have done personally. I would of made sure I was behind a car or something then asked the guy what he was doing following me! Then depending on the response act accordingly. Shouldn't violence be the last resort?

What if the person you jumped wasn't actually following you? What if you just made a mistake? Shouldn't you find out first?



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:30 PM
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Thanks, DK, exactly.

Again, start with simple human mercy for needless deaths or stay off the thread. I am no longer interested in dealing with people without emotions, also known as:

en.wikipedia.org...

or without empathy, at least, our finest (and most informative) feature:

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, thanks, DK, for using the two phrases which are not interchangeable. We have them that way for a reason. Bernie Goetz did not get away with what he did. So the law obviously agrees that there is a difference and the dictionary does, too.

As we should, if we wish to remain out of jail and without blood on our hands.

But first comes compassion, empathy, and simple regret. That is what this thread is about. Thanks in advance for not being here if you don't want to.




posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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Nope.I think I'll keep my right to defend myself and my property.Dont see any need to run away.Dont see any need to give up my gun.Nope,think I'll pass on this "right thing"



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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No one mentioning disarming. Please read the OP and respond only to what it says, or be ignored. Thanks again.

If no one wants to begin at the beginning, I leave you to your anger, hard-heartedness, and your will for violence and deliberate misunderstanding.

It is always bad when people are killed. Even Cheney apologized for shooting his friend.

Show some mercy, or show me why ATS is no longer full of curious people, but human-shaped beings shutting down the light in anyone who has a little more to give, or say.

And misquoting me to push gun arguments is also not the topic of this thread. I won an Expert marksmanship badge in high school, grew up in the country, and am from a family of hunters. Don't go there, it is silly, and trawling for a fight I am not having. Gun issues deserve a thread of their own, please do make your gun comments there.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Nope.I think I'll keep my right to defend myself and my property.Dont see any need to run away.Dont see any need to give up my gun.Nope,think I'll pass on this "right thing"



Who mentioned giving up guns? I guess you decided to skip the OP and just spout whatever? Ok then. Be ignored.
And show that you cannot show mercy for anyone at any time. Duly noted.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by mee30
 


Yes, if someone is following me in the dead of night, I have every right to find out why however I need to. And Zimmerman had every right to join the neighborhood watch, or to drive up to the kid in his car and question him. However, Zimmerman had no proof or reasonable suspicion that this guy was the one breaking into homes, none. Like I said before, if Zimmerman came upon him in the act that's one thing, but he didn't, so he wasn't defending anything. As I said, once the 911 operator told him not to follow, he stopped being a defender and became the aggressor.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by Copperflower
 


"vigilantism is wrong" Hmmmm I'm not so sure about that, How many people have died in police custody? Should we do away with the police then? (I would say yes). I find it way more dangerous for any group to have the monopoly of the use of force.

Personally I think we could do the right thing and just stop these threads.


When you are staff, I guess you can censor people all you want. Not a problem, eh?

The law says it is wrong, and it also doesn't consult for opinions to see if it is illegal or not.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

This thread is about mercy, which every hunter should have, and they use guns a lot more than most people. Even slaughtering animals could be done with mercy.

But so far, not much sticking to the topic or showing mercy, just shouting your own agenda. Interesting.
edit on 27-3-2012 by Copperflower because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:40 PM
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Respect for others starts with not making negative assumptions of others. Respecting others and their right to live how they wish as long as they do not harm others. That should be a basic thing for us all to understand.

However, it appears even in this short thread, it is explained that a person should follow instructions from another with whom they are not legally or morally obligated to do so, based upon a negative presumption of the other. Furthermore, that a self-admitted killer's excuse should be acceptable as an unchallenged alibi.

I know no-one actually would expect to live their own life with such constraints, then why should others do what they would not do? Why should others live how they would not live? Why should excuses be given and accepted by others, when those same excuses would not be acceptable should they want answers under similar conditions?

The simple answer is that many people lack empathy, were not taught it, perhaps never experienced it and don't miss it.
edit on 27-3-2012 by spacedog1973 because: none



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:43 PM
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it wasn't vigilantism it was self defense pure and simple. Zimmerman was not looking to punish Martin he was observing him and called police as he should. Martin chose to attack him and he defended himself. Trying to repeal "stand your ground" laws results in idiocy like the 80 year old man being arrested for defending himself in his own home.

Why is it Marxists and idiots want to pass or repeal some law and force it on everyone because of a single incident? How often do neighborhood watch guys have to defend themselves with deadly force? This is the first time I have ever heard of it.

It is obvious government is using this incident to try and implement an agenda. Even if you believe Zimmerman to be at fault here it is still no reason to force something on the rest of the people. Laws do not prevent actions they only punish actions.

If you don't want to defend yourself from violence that is fine but don't tell me I cannot do it and don't try and bring government force to bear to try and force me to submit to violence just cause that is what you would do.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by Copperflower
 


On your opening paragraph you made reference to repealing the stand your ground law .If I misread your intent I apologize but the PTB and our President are attempting to do just that and I see no reason to repeal anything.Again,if I misread your intent I am sorry



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by DarthMuerte
 


bostonherald.com...

2nd

With greater power comes greater responsibility, most of all the ability to exercise judgement, much of which relies on a healthy social understanding of ourselves and others. How do we get it? Partially through the process of empathy, putting ourselves in the shoes of another.

If you can only imagine one scenario, I suggest you break out of that limited thinking.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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As for "our" chance to do the right thing or anything this didn't occur in my jurisdiction.This is up to locals at the site of the event,not some bunch of keyboard commandos on some social site



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by DarkKnight76
 


So you would potentially jump someone that wasn't even following you, just because you think that they might be? Don't you see how that can escalate the situation even more? Wouldn't the better option be to ask? From a safe location of course...

The guy on the phone didn't see what zimmerman did, did he? No-one knows what zimmerman saw but him. Perhaps he saw trayvon looking into houses? Perhaps it looked to him as though there was cause to think he was up to no good?

Do I think he was over zealous? Perhaps, yes. But in my opinion trayvon shouldn't have jumped him without first trying to find out what he wanted.

I don't think that following someone that you deem to be suspicious is being aggressive. Especially as he called the police. I also don't think that the police are the be all and end all. Especially one that is on the phone and can not see what you see... Say a cop turned up and told him face to face he would take over, and zimmerman continued, then I would agree with you.

It's not such an easy case, I think you have to see it from both sides. I would be pissed if I'd not done anything and was being followed. But as I've said, I would still find out what he wanted before acting.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Again, this thread is about mercy.

It is not about guns, no matter how many comments are made like that.

Defend your rights against someone who is actually involved in taking them.

Please, read the OP. There is no mention of guns in it, or gun rights, or gun ownership rights being changed, at all.


I know I have been away a while, but what happened to reading the OP? lol How does one know how to comment without reading the OP.....



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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I posted this thread because none of us were there.

Because there are people around me now, here. There are probably some in your neighborhood, or at least in your life.

Those people have feelings, feelings about the incident, feelings about many types of things it reminds them of. I care for these people.

I cannot change the past. I can, however, look into their faces, or type into my laptop, the other side of the coin, which is very real, as well.

People, some of us, do care, very much. Some of us were born feeling the pain of others. Sometimes the healing words we say to each other fly in the face of all the confusion and questions of "what does it mean?"

So sometimes, it pays to go ahead, start a conversation with a fellow person, and make sure that whatever they think, they had the chance to hear a different truth. Maybe just to hear that what I think or feel is the same as what they think or feel. That truth sounds simple, but it can put the world into perspective when one is afraid that it is against them.

Feeling like the world is against you makes a person have little left to lose. That alone would be able to provoke a Zimmerman, a Martin, or a Goetz, to attack.

We are not in that position. We have the opportunity with every word we say to do something. What will we spend those chances on, if not to cool down fires that should be burnt out by now?

And again, if we care more about ourselves than anyone else, why should anyone care about us?

That kind of thinking leads to a fragmented society. Ringing any bells?

There is no excuse to hate so much, or to care for ourselves so much, that we cannot have a simple conversation about how SAD this all is.

How easily it could have been avoided if ANYONE did the right thing.



posted on Mar, 27 2012 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by Copperflower
 


I said PERSONALLY! It wasn't a demand! There are loads of threads on this topic.

I can give my opinion wherever I choose. I would rather focus on what is right and what is wrong, the "law" gets many things wrong! It is not the be all and end all as you seem to think it is! And even if it is, then you have to accept that zimmerman was in the right as he didn't get charged, no?

So do you think zimmerman was right? Or do you think the police (the ones you hold in high regard) are wrong?

Do I think it is bad that trayvon died? Yeah of course! Do I think he should of attacked zmmerman? No.




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