Justices signal possible trouble for health insurance mandate

reply to post by LittleBlackEagle


Read what you posted. Preventive health services. Evidence shows that red wine has health benefits. Should my insurance cover my ordering 10 cases of Chateau Lafite Rothschild? Or an elctromagentic gizmo I saw on eBay that will get rid of liver spots? There has to be some oversight. Look at all the fraud that runs rampant now. It will only get worse when more people are insured unless someone is holding the reins. Alot different than having a panel deciding which person gets cancer treatment.

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by de Thor

 

I agree, healthcare costs are outrageous right now. But I state emphatically, this is not the correct course!

Then name the course. I know the arguments, but i have yet to see anyone with any other viable solution other to deny people healthcare (which is a horrible thought in itself).

Here is a link to a table of profit margins of industries in the United States.

Industries & their Profit Margin

Healthcare facilities... 20.90%
Drug Manufacturers - Major... 16.70%
Drug Manufacturers - Other... 14.10%
Medical Appliances and Equipment... 13.70%
Medical Instruments and Supplies... 13.60%
Drug Related Products... 9.50%
Specialized Health Services... 9.40%
Accident and Health Insurance... 7.20%
Health Care Plans... 4.50%
Medical Practitioners... 4.30%
Hospitals... 4.30%
Medical Laboratories & Research 0.80%

I think the first thing we should do is inform all the misinformed who believe that the insurance companies are the sole problem in rising healthcare costs.

Also, to put these percentages into perspective, a 4.00% profit margin is considered great.

reply to post by xuenchen


xuenchen... after reading transcipts up thru the first 25 pages of today's, (unless the Liberal judges blatantly interfere and it appears RVG is doing all she can to 'assist' General) I see Obamacare as losing big right now.

Originally posted by OldCurmudgeon
reply to post by xuenchen

 

xuenchen... after reading transcipts up thru the first 25 pages of today's, (unless the Liberal judges blatantly interfere and it appears RVG is doing all she can to 'assist' General) I see Obamacare as losing big right now.

I noticed Ginsburg's comments also.

She seemed to be steering towards the mandate being a tax.

Although the only thing is ...

It's the penalty that could be a tax, not the insurance rates we pay.

They were "smart" and "sneaky" when they "mandated" the IRS to be the enforcers and collectors

reply to post by David9176

There is the history of the mandate....it came from the GOP. Democrats passed Republican healthcare....they all voted against their own idea.

So folks....if this does get destroyed by the Supreme court...WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO????

Seriously, what great plan do you guys have other than to deny people healthcare? Lose your job and your insurance....suddenly have a heart attack? Do you believe we should tell these people to go F themselves and suffer...die???

And just what if ...

what IF ...

The plan all along was to have the "mandate" or even the whole law
thrown out in the first place ?

What better way to be "forced" into an "enhanced" public State by State Medicaid system ?
(make the Medicaid standards fit more people)

I bet the government would start to use insurance companies to underwrite policies at a "Medicaid" level.

And perhaps even Medicare too at a later time.

All the insurance companies and Medicare use private "Pharmacy Benefit Managers" already.
(Medco, Express Scripts, etc)

The Dems and Repubs make it look like the other one set up the other !!
The perfect "can't blame one or the other" dilemma

Originally posted by de Thor

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by de Thor

 

I agree, healthcare costs are outrageous right now. But I state emphatically, this is not the correct course!

Then name the course. I know the arguments, but i have yet to see anyone with any other viable solution other to deny people healthcare (which is a horrible thought in itself).

Here is a link to a table of profit margins of industries in the United States.

Industries & their Profit Margin

Healthcare facilities... 20.90%
Drug Manufacturers - Major... 16.70%
Drug Manufacturers - Other... 14.10%
Medical Appliances and Equipment... 13.70%
Medical Instruments and Supplies... 13.60%
Drug Related Products... 9.50%
Specialized Health Services... 9.40%
Accident and Health Insurance... 7.20%
Health Care Plans... 4.50%
Medical Practitioners... 4.30%
Hospitals... 4.30%
Medical Laboratories & Research 0.80%

I think the first thing we should do is inform all the misinformed who believe that the insurance companies are the sole problem in rising healthcare costs.

edit on 27-3-2012 by de Thor because: Added a couple of industries

Then what is the answer... with millions more sliding into the pit of no health insurance and unable to purchase even the most basic healthcare services every day, and the cost of those basic health care services spirling insanely, it only leaves the uninsured with sitting home and being ill, missing work when they alreadly can't afford to live, and worse yet going to work and contaminating dozens and possibly hundreds of others causing them to have healthcare needs.
Even worse than that, a simple malady which could require a simple antibiotic could now cause one of thousands of people extreme consequences, or worse yet, death...

reply to post by de Thor

Here is a link to a table of profit margins of industries in the United States.

Industries & their Profit Margin

Healthcare facilities... 20.90%
Drug Manufacturers - Major... 16.70%
Drug Manufacturers - Other... 14.10%
Medical Appliances and Equipment... 13.70%
Medical Instruments and Supplies... 13.60%
Drug Related Products... 9.50%
Specialized Health Services... 9.40%
Accident and Health Insurance... 7.20%
Health Care Plans... 4.50%
Medical Practitioners... 4.30%
Hospitals... 4.30%
Medical Laboratories & Research 0.80%

I think the first thing we should do is inform all the misinformed who believe that the insurance companies are the sole problem in rising healthcare costs.

This is a great point all the way !!

The real problem IS the root costs, not so much the "insurance" cost.

Many people refer to "other" countries and their systems.

I wonder what "costs" in those nations are ?

Like Canada for example:

What does the industry there pay people to work ?


Canadians ... can you help us answer some questions ?

reply to post by OldCurmudgeon


Understand what industries we should be attacking. I thought the graphic of the table would paint a clear picture.

Insurance companies are there to reduce the costs so it's affordable to everyone. It's hard to keep the costs down when the rest of the industry is actively participating in price gouging (Case 1, Case 2, Case 3, Case 4).

The point that I'm trying to get across is that private insurance is part of the solution. It's not broken - it works. What is broken is government regulation in other parts of the health care sector, most notably the pharmaceutical companies.

The only reason why everyone believes that insurance companies are the problem is because they have been vilified by the Obama administration and the media.

Originally posted by de Thor
reply to post by OldCurmudgeon

 

Understand what industries we should be attacking. I thought the graphic of the table would paint a clear picture.

Insurance companies are there to reduce the costs so it's affordable to everyone. It's hard to keep the costs down when the rest of the industry is actively participating in price gouging (Case 1, Case 2, Case 3, Case 4).
The point that I'm trying to get across is that private insurance is part of the solution. It's not broken - it works. What is broken is government regulation in other parts of the health care sector, most notably the pharmaceutical companies.

The only reason why everyone believes that insurance companies are the problem is because they have been vilified by the Obama administration and the media.

OK... first forget health insurance as it is worthless to the millions who cannot afford to purchase it.

Also, you obviously are an insider as you appear to be supporting the insurance industry.

If you are, I say good, then back to my question, what do we do as the current system is NOT WORKING, i.e. there are millions without healthcare TODAY and the number of those unable to afford healthcare is growing everyday.

Please listen... IF it were not for medicaid, medicare, triline and some other social type of services, there would be millions and millions more without healthcare than there is today.

Telling me that health insurance is the answer not the problem does not help and does not answer my question.

Those who do not have health care need SHORT TERM help in conjunciton with a long term plan.

Health insurance as it sits today 'is not helping' the failure of the healthcare system as the failure is financial.

Please listen, the millions and millions who cannot now, and could likely not be able to purchase health care in the near future or the next ten years.

Now... what is your suggestion...

Reid: Overturning Obamacare Puts Admin In "Better Position For The Election"

What was that Harry ?

Say That Again Harry !!


Uploaded on Mar 27, 2012
(voice transcript)

SENATE MAJORITY LEADER HARRY REID:

The question is, 'Do I think it will damage the Democrats if the law is overturned?'

You know, you folks read stuff more than I do.

There's a significant school of thought that the administration is -- puts them in a better position for the election if it's turned down.

Now, I think it will be upheld but I don't know but you can read all that stuff as well as I can. Again, I think you're speculating, I don't know.

Hmmm.

Indications of a "cover butts" tactic Harry ?

I think Harry is planning on a "turn down" ....

Then He and the others can implement a true Marxist style program.....

Maybe that's been the agenda all along ? Hmmm.

reply to post by OldCurmudgeon


We need government regulations on prices of drugs, as currently, there are very, very few. Once we reign in the prices, insurance premiums will drop and eventually stabilize.

To those who can't afford the insurance premiums once they stabilize, they should use Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare and Medicaid would would work perfectly if the government didn't use the surplus in those programs to make up for the shortfalls in others.

Essentially, the current system is fine. It needs to be tweaked in some areas, obviously, but the total overhaul proposed is overkill. You will not see the result you desire with the Affordable Care Act.

In this debate, you have two options: private insurance or insurance mandated by the government. Both give you the same product with the same benefits, it's just a different means by which the product is delivered. My political ideology leads me to choose the private insurance option.

Edit to add:
And for the record, I'm not an "insider." I'm a student who has a broader perspective on this issue than "so you're going to let them die."

And here are some more comment links:

Justice Sotomayor Skeptical About Claims that Individual Mandate isn't Justified by Limitless Interpretation of Commerce Clause


Justice Roberts: Can the government make you buy a cell phone?


‘You Can Make People Buy Broccoli’: Scalia Goes After Health Care Law

reply to post by de Thor


Note: I am not a supporter of Obamacare... or any other healthcare insurance...

I'm one of those without health insurance and thus without preventive medicine or any sort of healthcare outside of emergency.

I know the cost of medications as I purchase all my own, and in doing so I've been forced to give up the best medications for generics which in some cases falls far short of the actual results of the name brands, lipitor being one I can't afford and any of the generics fall far short of the abilities of lipitor.

Never the less, I talk to my druggest twice a month, and daily read the left, right and center about this issue... medicaid and medicare (which I can draw in a year) will help greatly as I can actually then go to the doctor for care.

There are millions of people whose incomes fall just above the limits to be accepted by medicaid.... my wife and I fell $50 above the limit and there are no exceptions. BTW, all info they gave us on other healthcare sources were worthless as I called them all and short of going to free clinics, there is nothing out there.

We already knew the pharmaceutical companies were a favorite of many in the 1%, so what does one do there?

Ah hell, even if everything you mentioned is passed, there are still going to be thousands and thousands out there who will forego medical care in lieu of food.

reply to post by OldCurmudgeon


If you think the government doesn't care now, just wait till ObamaCare becomes law! They require you to purchase health insurance, regardless of your financial situation.

Essentially, you are getting the same product for the same prices... only now you're forced to buy it! The theory goes that by getting everyone paying for insurance, it'll reduce prices. Studies have shown, however, that this will not happen.

To ACTUALLY reduce prices, you need heavy government oversight of the whole entire industry, not just the insurance companies.

ANYONE REMEMBER When President OBAMA insulted the Supreme Court on National Television (2010 Stat of The Union) while they were sitting right in front of him? It was un-precedented and the justices will make this PAYBACK TIME!

Here's a news story from 2010: forgottenliberty.com...

I bet many of them have a dart board on their wall at home with President Obama's face on it.

-cwm

reply to post by xuenchen

Watch and learn:

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
It is so unconstitutional to force someone to buy insurance that I cannot even begin to imagine. Who benefits from this mandatory system? The health insurance companies and pharmaceutical industries. I am a health care worker, but never in the hospital is anyone denied care in the USA even if they have no insurance. I was in the same boat, I was not denied care!! I am sick and disgusted at corporations dictating our lives.

Because of this this my wife has had to suffer pain because they had to check out all the poor pregnant women doing baby health checks instead of my wife who had abdominal pain and we had insurance.

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by de Thor

 

And to you, I say: Do you believe we should tell our republic to go F itself and let the Constitution die?

This republic will die if we don't get healthcare costs under control.

Half of GDP will be absorbed by healthcare by 2030

Not true.

Medical technology is advancing at an alarming rate.

Soon our private healthcare corporations will be delivering 90% health cures

and delivering only 10% health care.

Your reasoning is suffering from - Ceteris Paribus Fallacy -

Look it up.

Originally posted by de Thor
reply to post by OldCurmudgeon

 

If you think the government doesn't care now, just wait till ObamaCare becomes law! They require you to purchase health insurance, regardless of your financial situation.

Essentially, you are getting the same product for the same prices... only now you're forced to buy it! The theory goes that by getting everyone paying for insurance, it'll reduce prices. Studies have shown, however, that this will not happen.

To ACTUALLY reduce prices, you need heavy government oversight of the whole entire industry, not just the insurance companies.

edit on 27-3-2012 by de Thor because: (no reason given)

You should have seen them on MSNBC this morning. It's over.

Apparently, the liberals sent the wrong guy to the Supreme Court.

Don Verilli is the new poster boy for ObamaCare. He was laughed at in the

courtroom!

And even more trouble as of 28 Mar 12:

"Justices poised to strike down entire healthcare law"

www.latimes.com...