Wallops' rocket launch: Climate engineering field test

reply to post by ProudBird


Glad to hear I made you laugh.
At least I was able to do something right and positive this morning.

Originally posted by Afterthought
Even though the article says that it's designed to see how winds move in space, we all know there's no wind in space, so, of course, they're talking about the upper atmosphere you're speaking about.

Solar Wind

The solar wind is responsible for the overall shape of Earth's magnetosphere, and fluctuations in its speed, density, direction, and entrained magnetic field strongly affect Earth's local space environment. For example, the levels of ionizing radiation and radio interference can vary by factors of hundreds to thousands; and the shape and location of the magnetopause and bow shock wave upstream of it can change by several Earth radii, exposing geosynchronous satellites to the direct solar wind. These phenomena are collectively called space weather.

reply to post by Uncinus


Yes, that's correct. There is solar wind.
www.ehow.com...

The two jet streams, polar and subtropical, are bands of strong wind in the upper atmosphere. Winds within the jet stream flow from west to east or north to south along boundaries of hot and cold air. Several factors influence the jet stream, such as the Earth's rotation, air temperatures, high and low pressure systems, seasonal changes and solar flares. Solar flares disturb Earth's atmosphere, thus modifying weather patterns.

Solar flares are sudden, violent eruptions on the sun's surface. Energy released from solar flares can be equivalent to millions of hydrogen bombs. During a flare, heated protons and electrons eject into space, creating weather changes on Earth. Due to the distance between the sun and Earth, effects felt on Earth do not occur until several days after the flare.

So, if this experiement was addressing solar wind and how it affects the jet stream, why didn't they wait to launch the rockets until flares were disrupting the upper atmosphere? Why were they more concerned with visibility from the ground? We have satellites that are capable of seeing how the chemical trails traveled with the jet stream, so why was ground visibility so important?

In my opinion (moronic as it is), if these launches were about Solar Cycle 24 and how solar flares/solar winds affect the jet stream, they should've conducted the launches as flares were hitting Earth's atmosphere. They also should've been using the satellites' views instead of wanting to rely on their eyesight visibility in three states.

Can anyone tell me exactly when solar flares affected the jet stream recently?

reply to post by Afterthought


It wasn't!

So, if this experiement was addressing solar wind and how it affects the jet stream...

Pay note, please, to the sources (the two sources) you cited in your post.

And, for clarification.....the need to "observe" from the ground is only one component of the full experiment....to augment the other observational techniques used, to include satellite imagery.

Really.....this is NOT a "smoking gun" for "geoengineering", in any way, shape or form....no matter how it is tried to mis-interpret it......

reply to post by ProudBird


No need to yell.
As far as I'm aware, you are allowed to address thread posts with further info and speculation.

Unicus mentioned solar winds and I was simply commenting and agreeing about how they affect the jet stream. Since this article does mention space wind and the jet stream, it is only logical that I expand upon this by tying in the info Unicus brought to the table.

The government has been anticipating solar cycle 24 for some time now and have wondered how it's going to affect Earth's weather, so I don't understand why you're getting upset with my post.

www.stormingmedia.us...~cycle~24~and~space~wind

Times have changed and the military has extensively utilized Space assets in operations for approximately the last twenty years. Thus for two solar cycles, specifically cycles 22 and 23, we have incorporated Space weather into mission analysis. Weather in general has had significant impact on operations since warfare began; either benefiting one force or the other. The following are just a few examples of such operational impacts created by weather conditions. In 1915, German forces use of poison gas and wind blew the chemicals back onto German lines and destroyed four Prussian regiments. In 1944, the D-Day weather forecast was for conditions favorable to air, sea and ground operations together ? a rare event.

reply to post by Afterthought


I do not think I "yelled" in the post you referenced.

The link you have provided, while again interesting and informative, does not add to any sort of "geoengineering controversy" sort of 'meme'.

The on-going scientific task of investigation as to whether, or not, the SOLAR WIND (sorry, didn't mean to "shout") has an affect on terrestrial and atmospheric weather....by that I mean, the day-to-day weather patterns that you, and I, experience here in the troposphere.....

,,,,,the science of trying to understand IF (sorry, a shout) any Solar activity has a direct effect on our terrestrial atmospheric systems, and if (small shout) there is a relationship.

It is all a part of what's called "science"....(I don't intend that to be condescending....it's just....some thing are so evident, to me, and this ATS venue is limited in its ability to express all of the concepts involved)....

As far as I can tell, this test has nothing to do with the regular weather - it's all about electromagnetic weather on the edge of space. Specifically about events that can effect satellite and radio communication. Nothing at all to do with "climate engineering".

It did product this very cool video though.

reply to post by ProudBird


Sorry, but the exclamation mark after your first comment made it appear that you were upset.
At least I didn't tell you that you should take a break from ATS.

Whether or not they're telling us the true and whole story about these experiments is yet to be determined. I won't take what NASA is reporting hook, line, and sinker. The info I provided is interesting and it does back up the fact that they are concerned with how wind affects chemical dispersion during battle.

I have to place much emphasis on this excerpt:

In 1915, German forces use of poison gas and wind blew the chemicals back onto German lines

If you're convinced that the public is getting the whole story from NASA, that's your choice. I'll continue to speculate and look at data over the last few years as well as newly released reports that can give us clues as to what they may actually be trying to figure out.

reply to post by Uncinus


I won't argue that aspect. Radio and satellite communications are huge parts of the system that the Military Industrial Complex relies upon in order to succeed.

I just don't understand why the experiments can't be telling them this info as well as providing info about how chemicals can be carried by the jet stream.

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by Uncinus

 

I won't argue that aspect. Radio and satellite communications are huge parts of the system that the Military Industrial Complex relies upon in order to succeed.

I just don't understand why the experiments can't be telling them this info as well as providing info about how chemicals can be carried by the jet stream.

Because the jet stream they are testing is the jet stream in space, which can't carry chemicals in any useful manner.

The effect of space weather on terrestrial weather is practically non-existent.

reply to post by Afterthought


IN this post, and the one below (to member 'Uncinus') is seems you still are not getting it.

The term "jet stream", as referenced in any articles related to this ATREX experiment....have nothing, nothing, nothing at all...at all, at all....to do with the term "jet stream" that is commonly understood to be an influence on Terrestrial weather, on the surface of planet Earth.

How much more clear can this be???

(edit) see post just above......

reply to post by ProudBird


So, I guess I'm not understanding how space's jet stream (still can't find reference to this) can be seen from the ground.

Here's wiki's explanations about all the different jet streams. I see nothing about solar wind or space jet streams.
en.wikipedia.org...
These are all the different jet streams I am able to name from the above website:
1. Polar Jets
2. Subtropical Jets
3. Equatorial Smoke Stream
4. Polar Night Jet
5. Barrier Jet
6. Valley Exit Jet
7. African Easterly Jet

I am at a loss for finding anything about a jet stream above Earth's atmosphere.
I'd please like some sort of link because the article in my op doesn't specify what jet stream they're attempting to understand in regards to satellite and radio communications.

reply to post by Uncinus

which can't carry chemicals in any useful manner.

Well, I guess all those reports of the chemical trail sightings from multiple states were all lies.
If the jet stream cannot carry the trails, why would they have anticipated viewing the trails over NC and NJ?

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by Uncinus

 

which can't carry chemicals in any useful manner.

Well, I guess all those reports of the chemical trail sightings from multiple states were all lies.
If the jet stream cannot carry the trails, why would they have anticipated viewing the trails over NC and NJ?

Again, it's entirely unrelated to terrestrial weather. It's not going to affect the weather or the climate. This test has nothing to do with climate engineering.

It's not the jet stream - by which people generally mean the jet stream at the tropopause. It's something resembling this jet stream, but at the edge of space. Totally different thing. 50 miles apart.

www.nasa.gov...

Earth's Two Jet Streams
High in the sky, 60 to 65 miles above Earth's surface, winds rush through a little understood region of Earth's atmosphere at speeds of 200 to 300 miles per hour.

First noticed in the 1960s, the winds in this jet stream shouldn't be confused with the lower jet stream located around 30,000 feet, through which passenger jets fly and which is reported in weather forecasts. These 2 jet streams are vertically 50 miles apart.

In March 2012, NASA will launch five rockets in approximately five minutes to study these high-altitude winds and their intimate connection to the complicated electrical current patterns that surround Earth. Credit: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center

NASA says they should not be confused, but I think you are confusing them.

reply to post by Uncinus


For the last time, I'm not commenting about JUST the weather. I asked you a specific question about that jet stream and you avoided the question.

So again, how were people on the ground able to see the trails from several different states if the trails were 50 miles ABOVE the jet stream that's 30,000 feet above our heads?

Also, you stated that the jet stream in question cannot carry/push chemicals, so how did the trails get over NJ?

Sure, this thread is in the geoengineering forum, but I will not rule out that this experiment can also give them answers and information that may be pertinent to how chemicals can be used during warfare.

reply to post by Afterthought


It's been about ONE hour since you asked...and, NO, I am NOT "Uncinus" (please feel free to ask the ATS Staff...they will confirm that we are not the same person, nor using the same ATS screen names):

So again, how were people on the ground able to see the trails from several different states if the trails were 50 miles ABOVE the jet stream that's 30,000 feet above our heads?

Also, you stated that the jet stream in question cannot carry/push chemicals, so how did the trails get over NJ?

Sure, this thread is in the geoengineering forum, but I will not rule out that this experiment can also give them answers and information that may be pertinent to how chemicals can be used during warfare.

AS TO paragraph #1....can YOU see the ISS as it orbits? It is in LEO (or, Low Earth Orbit)....about 200 miles (or so) above us.

AS TO paragraph #2....This is about conditions IN SPACE....please read more about them at the various sites devoted to explaining that.

AS TO paragraph #3:...See (ABOVE) ^ ^ ^


It "may" help if one were to take the time to educate oneself, about the nature of the Earth's atmosphere.

I will try to find a resource as a starting point, for that education:

You can start with the basics, at Wiki


IF "Wiki" isn't your "cup of tea", then:

Layers of the Earth's Atmosphere


OR....keep searching ONLINE to learn more.....it is ALL there for everyone's edification......

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by Uncinus

 

For the last time, I'm not commenting about JUST the weather. I asked you a specific question about that jet stream and you avoided the question.

So again, how were people on the ground able to see the trails from several different states if the trails were 50 miles ABOVE the jet stream that's 30,000 feet above our heads?

They looked up?

Also, you stated that the jet stream in question cannot carry/push chemicals, so how did the trails get over NJ?

The thermospheric wind blew them. That's what the experiment was designed to do. So they could measure the wind by visual observation of the burning TMA.

reply to post by Uncinus


Thanks for answering my question and finally using the word 'thermospheric wind'.
That's the info I needed. Not "it's like the jet stream, but it's on the edge of space".

So, after doing a quick search, it does seem as though this type of air current is associated with solar cycle 24.
From 2010:
www.stormingmedia.us...~wind

We present the first thermospheric wind measurements using a Doppler Asymmetric Spatial Heterodyne (DASH) spectrometer and the oxygen red-line nightglow emission. The ground-based observations were made from Washington, DC and include simultaneous calibration measurements to track and correct instrument drifts.

The wind data are commensurate with a representative set of Millstone Hill Fabry-Perot wind measurements selected for similar geomagnetic and solar cycle conditions.

I'm not sure what they mean about similar conditions since I'm unable to purchase the report, but there is other info.
From 2010:
www.stormingmedia.us...~wind~

In atmospheric and space environment studies it is key to understand and to quantify the coupling of atmospheric regions and the solar impacts on the whole atmosphere system. There is thus a need for a numerical model that encompasses the whole atmosphere and can self consistently simulate the dynamic, physical, chemical, radiative, and electrodynamic processes that are important for the Sun Earth system.

This is the goal for developing the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) Whole Atmosphere Community Climate Model (WACCM). In this work, we report the development and preliminary validation of the thermospheric extension of WACCM (WACCM X), which extends from the Earth s surface to the upper thermosphere.

Finally, the thermosphere does indeed have to with weather and climate.
(from the same source as above)

We evaluate the model performance by examining the quantities essential for the climate and weather of the upper atmosphere: the mean compositional, thermal, and wind structures from the troposphere to the upper thermosphere and their variability on interannual, seasonal, and daily scales. These quantities are compared with observational and previous model results.

reply to post by Afterthought


I THINK you just answered yourself.

Nice!!

OK, then....now I can teach you to fly??/ (Just the basics, to start........we can go on from there......)....

reply to post by ProudBird


Gee thanks... I think.
I'd love to learn, but my extreme astigmatism makes me ineligible.

Let me know when you're piloting a skydiving crew. You and Chadwickus can fight over who gets to push me out.