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A Lesson in Jumping to Conclusions (the Trayvon Martin shooting)

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posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Furbs
reply to post by GhostLancer
 


Ignoring the police while calling the deceased a racial epithet.

It is about race because George Zimmerman made it about race.

Perhaps for you, but I will not leat an over-zealous *hero* wanna be determine what this issue is about. There is no institutionalized racism here; if so, then this would be about race. This is about (potential) **INDIVIDUAL** choice and/or prejudice. Not race. "Race" implies that there is a greater structure here beyond the personal prejudice in an **individual.** To be about "race" in the grander scale, it would involve an organization, doctrine or institutionalized prejudice (such as was evident in the South of the 1960s leading to wide-scale riots). Zimmerman's PERSONAL beliefs, prejudices and agendas does not characterize the scope of what happened to paint a brush of "racism" across his neighborhood, Florida or the US. If so, your possible prejudices and actions would characterize an entire nation's struggle with racism?

Boil this situation down and distill it to its core: Zimmerman did what he did for whatever reason(s) he had. He went against police instructions to cease pursuit. Because of his PERSONAL decision, someone (in my opinion) WRONGFULLY died. Zimmerman should pay for this, suffer in prison and possibly be executed. Whatever the circumstances, this is an INDIVIDUAL ACT. There was no clan rally, no burning crosses, no lynching, no racists flyers and propoganda in the vicinity. To take a single individual's actions and bad judgement as testament to a race problem is scientifically invalid.




posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:27 AM
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We are getting ONE person's account, because the other one is dead.

Why are we discounting the account of Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him? I guess she is not credible enough, because.....?

Zimmerman could have easily avoided killing Trayvon, by NOT following him, and heeding to the advice of dispatch. But NO. He made the choice to take the law into his own hands. And IF he did get jumped by Trayvon, THAT would not have happened either had Zimmerman not insisting on playing hero of the day.

His ego got in the way, he told dispatch "These a$%$^ always get away".

Zimmerman was DETERMINED RIGHT THEN go to after Trayvon, regardless....... and that is HIS mistake, not Trayvon's.

I'd bet my farm on Trayvon seeing a guy with a gun and decided to fight like hell. I would.


edit on 28-3-2012 by Thunder heart woman because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-3-2012 by Thunder heart woman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:28 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


you speak about not jumping to conclusions. But you seem to suggest that he was found with stolen jewlery and a screwdriver. This is not true at all. And what your reffering to is an incident that happened way before and has nothing to do with this incident (last fall). He did not have jewlwery or anything that could be considered a weapon. So YOU dont jump to conclusions. Better yet, stop making stuff up.

yes..he was a neighborhood watch person. But its neighborhood watch. As in watch. He had no business following trayvon. He was safely away and not in confrontation with Trayvon when he called the police. And at that point, the police told him to not pursue.

therefore, he instigated whatever altercation him and trayvon got into. Furthermore, even if trayvon was beating him down after Zimmerman ingaged him. The second you see someone approach you with a gun and you find yourself in a physical altercation; that is an automatic fight for your life. So if zimmerman took a bad beating, its because Trayvon was fighting for his life. Also, Trayvon going for the gun (if he actually did), is no fault of his. That would be a natural reaction to fighting someone with a gun. It would be natural to go after the gun, because it is afterall, a fight for your life.




edit on 28-3-2012 by trutrutru because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:28 AM
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reply to post by DJW001
 


If someone was on top of me beating me senseless and banging my head on the ground, which tells me this person wants to kill me. Then I would have shot him too as I am sure most would have. Many may say on the outside they wouldnt do that but trust me, put in that situation ud do the same.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:32 AM
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Ok. Let me get this straight. Zimmerman stalks this kid because he looks suspicious. The bewildered Treyvon runs for it. Zimmerman pursues him. Treyvon fights back not knowing the guy is armed and beats the christ out of him. Armed Zimmerman shoots is gun in "Self Defense". Now every minority's out for Zimmerman's blood and I'm supposed to feel bad for him OP? Even if everyone stopped hating him for being a "racist" murderer, they'd have every righ to scorn him for his stupidity. Why do you think Batman never carried a gun? This is why.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by diakrite
Hmm..yeah..nice..

However, bottom-line is that a "neighbourhood-watch" found it neccesary to follow a guy because he wore a hoodie, and was black.

Dispatch warned him NOT to pursue. Mr Neighbourhood-watch ignored it, and America is -yet again- sitting on a powder-kegg.

There's a reason Police always discourages vigilantism.


And.... Zimmerman did not want to listen. Nope. He wanted to be big hero of the day...... and to many racists, I guess that is exactly what he is, their hero. A lot of the people posting here in his defense are the same ones you find posting material they got from their other boards on storm front.
edit on 28-3-2012 by Thunder heart woman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by JROCK2527
 


well if you instigate an altercation and have a gun on you, whoever it is who's fighting you is going to be fighting for their lives. You having the gun raises the stakes, so dont be surprised when someone fights with all they got.

by Zimmermans own testimony, Trayvon went for his gun. In order to go for his gun he had to have known zimmerman had one on him. Therefore trayvon's mentality, as anyone in that position would be, was that he was fighting for his life.

Trayvon reacted as anybody would have. That was self defense; no wrong in that. You dont come at someone with a gun and then claim you killed in self defense.

Zimmerman was told to not follow..he didnt listen....not only did he follow..but he confronted trayvon....Trayvon did not deserve to die.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by diakrite
Hmm..yeah..nice..

However, bottom-line is that a "neighbourhood-watch" found it neccesary to follow a guy because he wore a hoodie, and was black.


I have a question for you. I assure you that this question is not racist, nor am I racist. Just consider the question and answer it honestly:

Whenever you see a security cam video of someone robbing a convenience store, how would you describe the perp, in MOST cases? Black male? Hispanic male? Wearing a hoodie? Be honest. You almost never see a middle-aged soccer mom sticking up a gas station.

Did Martin have the hood over his head? Does anyone know?

The hoodie is a popular garment of choice for criminals because it conceals their head and face. Wearing a hoodie is not a crime, but it make you look like the criminals often seen in security cam videos if you wear it a certain way. This is what that moron Geraldo Rivera probably meant when he claimed the hoodie was the reason for the shooting or whatever his retarded comment was.

Sorry to point it out to you, but sometimes people dressed a certain way stick out like a sore thumb in certain neighborhoods, and they draw attention to themselves. Suppose for a moment that it was a neighborhood park where there were a lot of small kids playing, and a lone gray-haired white guy in a long coat in warm weather was hanging around. Would you get suspicious? Why? He's white. Race has everything to do with it, right? Surely a white guy wouldn't draw attention to himself.

Look, Zimmerman never should have approached the kid (if he even did - do we know whether he did?). I am not defending his first act of stupidity that quickly escalated if that is in fact what happened. All of us still do not know all the facts. Have there been other incidents in this neighborhood? Are people uneasy because of it? Have the cops not responded to the neighborhood watch people in the past because of suspicious activity they've reported? Would Zimmerman feel compelled to be more proactive because of it?

I am just putting those questions out there for consideration. There is always more to the story than you or I know. Jumping to conclusions is easy to do, but almost always wrong.

-----------------------------

So after I posted the above, I did a google search for robbery videos and it seems like there is a wide variety of dumbasses robbing convenience stores these days, so my assertions are probably based on my experience of having lived in a large city in the northeast, and then in the Washington DC area. The northeast has a far larger black population that where I am now (New Mexico). Here it is mostly hispanic gang members doing these kinds of crimes. I still stand by the point I was trying to make, though.

Here is a small sampling of how the hoodie got its reputation:

abclocal.go.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Those crooks do like their hoodies. Of course, there are plenty of imbeciles who don't wear them - I'm just showing that it is not hard to support the argument about hooded sweatshirts.




edit on 28-3-2012 by AwakeinNM because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-3-2012 by AwakeinNM because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-3-2012 by AwakeinNM because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by GhostLancer
 


an individual's prejudices can be motivated by racism. And although this one incident couldnt be reason to accuse a nation of struggling with racism. A bunch of isolated events adding up would.

It is far too common that a black youth either dies or suffers some injustice that when the case is reviewed, There was no reason for them to have either died or for them to have suffered any injustice. Why do black youth get shot when unarmed by cops? how many times have we heard that story or one similar to it.

how many times have we heard stories that when compared to similar ones that only differ in what races were involved, the one where there is a black suspect gets either a harsher punishment or loses their lives?

we all know cops do racial profiling. Considering cops are enforcement for the laws in our society, this means racism is hardwired into the infastructure of our society. Who's to say they same cant be said about other institutions? you think things like affirmitive action are made just for fun?

this sort of thing is hardwired into the many institutions that keep this country running. So dont say that this one incident doesnt cant hint to a possible struggle this country has with racism, because it does. In fact it is a symptom of the racism that exists in some way shape or form and in many of our institutions



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:12 AM
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The simple fact is that we will never really know what the 100% truth was, the only two people who knew the truth was Zimmerman and Martin and with Martin dead we simple can't say for sure what did happen.

But what does piss me off is the fact its being used for political reasons to whip up hatred between black people and the rest, this cleansing of Martin was absurd, he was a petty criminal and maybe in a gang, so what, but no, it was turned into a hate crime and sold to the people.

What annoys me is the mother, her son is dead and she starts setting up patents on phrases so she makes money out of the lad, call me old fashioned but that's a warped mind, would you think about that when your own child has died. If some legal person suggested it to me I'd spit in his or her face as its cheapening the sons death.

Death for profit.....Sick..

But, back on topic, I'd call on both sides to sit down and respect that neither side will know the truth unless Zimmerman decides to say he killed him because he was black. Do I think that's what he did, I don't know as we all don't, jumping around wearing pussy cracker T-shirts ISN'T the answer, the last thing we need is a race hate motion sweeping the area's.

Don't let the politicians and church people tell you its race hate, look at the case and decide from hearing any witnesses, to preempt that knowledge is just sadly stupid. Don't judge people like you know them, you don't, more often than not you will be repeating Chinese whispers.

Don't be that stupid....Lets just hope the truth comes out...



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by Thunder heart woman
We are getting ONE person's account, because the other one is dead.

Why are we discounting the account of Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him? I guess she is not credible enough, because.....?

Zimmerman could have easily avoided killing Trayvon, by NOT following him, and heeding to the advice of dispatch. But NO. He made the choice to take the law into his own hands. And IF he did get jumped by Trayvon, THAT would not have happened either had Zimmerman not insisting on playing hero of the day.

His ego got in the way, he told dispatch "These a$%$^ always get away".

Zimmerman was DETERMINED RIGHT THEN go to after Trayvon, regardless....... and that is HIS mistake, not Trayvon's.

I'd bet my farm on Trayvon seeing a guy with a gun and decided to fight like hell. I would.


edit on 28-3-2012 by Thunder heart woman because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-3-2012 by Thunder heart woman because: (no reason given)



PLEASE GROW UP QUIT WASTING OUR TIME


New information was also revealed Monday about the circumstances of Martin’s visit with his father in Sanford. Crump said that Martin was staying with his father’s fiancee, because he had been recently suspended for 10 days from his high school in Miami after an empty baggie that once held marijuana and still had some residue was found in Trayvon’s book bag



Martin challenging him by saying, “You got a problem with me?”

“Zimmerman said no,” the official said, citing Zimmerman’s account. “Martin said, ‘Now you do,’ and then punched him in the nose.”


JUST IGNORING THE FACTS
Which proves martin was the agressor,
proves zimmerman acted in self defense,
proves that treyvon thugged up his last victim.
Please this is not just one account..
The truth is coming out, and you hang whitey
folks are sick.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by AwakeinNM
 


regardless of whether or not a hoodie is considered suspicious to some or not. He was told to not follow the kid. Not only did he do so, he confronted him. Zimmerman approached the kid with a gun. Its only natural for the feel to threatened. Only the kid could make the argument that he was in fear of his life. And as a result fought as though his life was in danger, because as far as he knew it was.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and therefore what he did is murder. You dont bring a gun to a confrontation with someone who doesnt have one and get to argue self defense. Its ridiculous. He should be jailed.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:26 AM
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reply to post by popsmayhem
 


so a murderers story is now fact? his own account of what went down is now fact?

and how does the kids suspension due to having some weed have anything to do with this case.

ofcourse someone who just killed someone would claim self defense.

you dont bring a gun to an altercation with someone and then claim self defense. If zimmerman was getting beaten down its because had a gun on him. Anyone who was going up against a guy with a gun would be fighting for their lives. Also, zimmerman went after the kid even though he was told not to by the poilce. He was looking for trouble. Period

the kid had no weapons..and by zimmerman's own account...went for his gun...therefore the kid would have had to have known zimmerman had one...and if he knew he had one...his mentality, as anyone in that position would be, is to fight for your life...and he did

no one to blame but zimmerman



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:43 AM
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I haven't commented on this case at all yet because my first reaction was that this Zimmerman guy was a racist with an itchy trigger finger and should be locked up for life, but almost from day one the "facts" seemed to be constantly changing.

Now all the evidence I'm seeing appears to show that he was justified in defending himself, but of everything I've seen and heard, the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that the MSM absolutely refuses to show any pictures of Martin other than when he was an innocent-looking 12-year old. This reeks of intentional spin, and in my mind just hurts the case against Zimmerman and reinforces the point made in the OP. Not to mention that the usual race baiters Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and yes, even Obama have jumped on the race bandwagon although none of them knows any more about this than you or I.

This case is starting to remind me a lot of the Richard Jewell case. Here was a guy who probably saved many lives, and was made out to be an egotistical attention whore. Once exonerated, he never really regained his reputation. I'm afraid that this Zimmerman situation may have the same effect, assuming he's innocent.


Though Richard Jewell was hailed as a hero for his role in discovering the bomb and moving spectators to safety, four days after the bombing, news organizations reported that Jewell was considered a potential suspect in the bombing. Jewell, at the time, was unknown to authorities, and a lone wolf profile made sense to FBI investigators after being contacted by his former employer at Piedmont College.


Mind you, I'm not in any way calling Zimmerman a hero. In fact from what I have heard so far, he may just be a fool who made the stupid decision to confront someone unnecessarily, but we won't really know that until and unless a real, balanced investigation is completed.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 03:44 AM
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I watch your discussions from afar and only can shake my head.

If a guy would run or drive around here through neighborhoods at night, self acclaimed captain of the neighborhood watch, carrying a gun, then this alone would be enough to arrest him. Even if he had a license for this gun, he would lose it for playing sheriff like this.

Now this very same person killed a young man, a child of 17, who had no weapon and simply was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Still some people try to find the boy guilty of wearing a hoodie, having smoked marihuana or having rolled an "r" to make ridicule of a Latino... andandand.

Horrible to think that all those, who are trying to find the victim as guilty are allowed to run around with weapons over there.
People are now talking about races and cultures and accusations are flying around as if it were not the "races" and "cultures" of one nation. From the outside this all is perceived as US American culture and it fits to the clichés.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 04:20 AM
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reply to post by popsmayhem
 



JUST IGNORING THE FACTS


You are the one ignoring the facts.


Which proves martin was the agressor,


That is Zimmerman's story.


proves zimmerman acted in self defense,


That is Zimmerman's story.


proves that treyvon thugged up his last victim.


That is your fantasy.


Please this is not just one account..


t is Zimmerman's story alone.


The truth is coming out, and you hang whitey
folks are sick.


I find your language personally offensive. You are an embarrassment to your "race."



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 04:39 AM
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Originally posted by trutrutru
reply to post by AwakeinNM
 


regardless of whether or not a hoodie is considered suspicious to some or not. He was told to not follow the kid. Not only did he do so, he confronted him. Zimmerman approached the kid with a gun. Its only natural for the feel to threatened. Only the kid could make the argument that he was in fear of his life. And as a result fought as though his life was in danger, because as far as he knew it was.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and therefore what he did is murder. You dont bring a gun to a confrontation with someone who doesnt have one and get to argue self defense. Its ridiculous. He should be jailed.


The account that you just typed is the account that the MSM has been peddling since day one. If you have been following the story at all, you would know that it may not be entirely accurate. If Martin felt so threatened, how did he end up on top of Zimmerman and punching him? Kinda brave of him, don't you think?

I'm not totally disagreeing, but how about you leave the Treyvon pity party before it's no longer fashionable to be there. You don't know the facts any more than I do. You just read stuff in the paper and repeat it here.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 04:40 AM
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reply to post by dreamstalker
 



When do you think it may be Necessary? a 6'2" Guy in a Hoodie who you suspected was up to no good jumps from the bushes and knocks you to the ground and starts smashing your head on the concrete, and is now trying to get your weapon, I think if this was happening to me, in the heat of the moment if I got a chance I would squeeze one off too, sounds like a him or me situation, with only one winner or in Zimmerman's case, one loser.


We don't know if that's what really happened. If I had a fat guy with a gun harassing me, I just might knock him down, too. This thread is about people jumping to conclusions. You've jumped to yours.



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 04:53 AM
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I only have one question to this, what crime was Trayvon Martin breaking at the time he was observed being suspicious? It really sickens me how public opinion can ignore some basic human truths. No one should die by walking from a store. period. oh no one has mentioned that the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter but was overrule by the state attorney but to me that says alot.
edit on 28/3/2012 by basilray because: add



posted on Mar, 28 2012 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by Socrato
 


No only the Liberal Sheeple my friend only them.



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