A Lesson in Jumping to Conclusions (the Trayvon Martin shooting)

Originally posted by diakrite


However, bottom-line is that a "neighbourhood-watch" found it neccesary to follow a guy because he wore a hoodie, and was black.

You don't know this.

You weren't there.

People, stop being armchair narrators and telling us all what happened like you were hovering above the whole thing with your wings flapping.

"With a single punch," the Orlando Sentinel, citing police sources, reported Monday, "Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer ... climbed on top of [him] and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered."

"That is the account Zimmerman gave police," the paper said, "and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say." Zimmerman's attorney, Craig Sonner, says that Zimmerman acted in self-defense and is not a racist as some have portrayed him.

So you think these "facts" justify what Zimmerman did? How about the fact that neighborhood watch committees are not supposed to engage suspicious people, but merely report them to police and let the police handle it? I've been in a neighborhood watch committee myself, and we received training and were told to NEVER engage a suspicious person, and that in fact to do so may be breaking the law in and of itself. How about the fact that Zimmerman was the instigator in this situation? How about the fact that if a white kid had been strolling through the neighborhood it likely never would have taken place? I'm surprised at all these threads that purport to give new "facts" in this case that supposedly exonerate Zimmerman when all they do is just ignore the facts sitting right out in plain site that condemn him.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by diakrite
suddenly it's the kid's fault he got shot? What would You do when followed by some freaky fat bloke?

You continue the spin language that lead to the 'jumping to conclusions'. "kid' ... gives the impression of totally innocent child who didn't have stolen jewlery and a screw driver. "freaky fat bloke' ... you totally wipe out the fact that this was a neighborhood watch person doing their job AND that he was attacked by the 'kid'. Yet another example of jumping to conclusions.

Was the shooting necessary? WE DO NOT KNOW.
The accounts are that the neighborhood watch fella was attacked by Martin.
(Martin, who had stolen jewlery with him in a neighborhood that had a lot of break ins.)
Of course this is being ignored by the Black Panthers .. the DOJ .. and Obama.
It's being ignored by those who keep insisting that this was race based violence.

WE SHOULD NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS.

How is it not race based? He followed the kid because he was black. Every event that followed was based on that judgement. And the shooting was not necessary period. Zimmermans actions lead to it. Even after he was told not to follow he did. He could have waited for the police and the worst thing that would have happened is he would have been embarresed when it was revealed the kid was just that a kid and that he would have been accused of racial profiling. Did he murder the kid because of race, who knows. Was his decsion to start the entire chain of events that lead to the kids murder based on race, yes.

reply to post by DJW001


since when would it not be necessary to defend yourself when your getting your head pounded in????and smashed on the ground?
Perhaps he was wrong in assuming the incident would go off in the normal way,with the tresspasser apologizing
and going his way but it didnt and its looking more like he had to make a decision to protect his life?

Originally posted by SavedOne
So you think these "facts" justify what Zimmerman did?

I didn't say that Zimmerman was justified. I said that people are jumping to conclusions saying that he wasn't. People are jumping to the conclusion that he is a racist murderer. But the only FACT we know is that we are not getting the facts. We are getting a pile of spin from the media and we are getting politicians jumping on the political correctness bandwagon and we are getting other facts that don't fit into their spin - ignored. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. We were not there. And we can't trust the news.

How about the fact that Zimmerman was the instigator in this situation?

That's NOT a fact. That's the media spin.

How about the fact that if a white kid had been strolling through the neighborhood it likely never would have taken place?

That's NOT a fact. That's your assumption. Congratulations. You just gave a perfect example of what I'm talking about .. jumping to conclusions. .. and automatically going to the race conclusion. Dude .. sometimes black youth ARE troublemakers or thieves. It DOES happen ya know.

all they do is just ignore the facts sitting right out in plain site that condemn him.

all YOU do is just ignore the facts sitting right out in plain site that exonerate him.
See .. I can say the same thing about you.

Most of the sources in the OP are total crap, ironic.

The Smear Campaign Against Trayvon Martin

One thread in particular, the one about Martin taunting his Colombian friend...the whole thread was based of PART of a sentence and deliberately misconstrued, I don't how it is allowed to still even be on the board.

reply to post by MrSpad


You do not actually know that though. From the (very) little i know of this case, there have already been various versions of "the truth". Leave it to the Police and courts to establish what actually happened.

We may subsequently find out this Zimmerman character is totally innocent or we may find out he is a cold blooded killer. Until that point, judgment cannot really be made by any right minded individual.

Someone was on CNN this morning asking for an "immediate trial" of George Zimmerman, televised on Court TV.

I'm assuming that when he's found innocent there will be race riots in Miami and across the country?

If there wasn't enough evidence and were enough questionable circumstances that he hasn't been even CHARGED with murder, it's very likely that even the most basic public defender would be able to raise enough reasonable doubt with a jury to have him declared not guilty.

Originally posted by MrSpad
How is it not race based? He followed the kid because he was black.

He followed the stranger in the neighborhood because there were breakins in the neighborhood and it was his job to 'watch' the neighborhood. Strangers in neighborhoods come in all skin colors. Was he supposed to be politically correct and NOT do his job just because the stranger was black? that's silly.

Even after he was told not to follow he did.

That's the spin. The tapes of the conversation he had with his base show that was not said to him.

He could have waited for the police

Sure.

Was his decsion to start the entire chain of events that lead to the kids murder based on race, yes.

You do not know that. You are jumping to that conclusion. Another perfect example of what I said in the opening post.
ASSUMPTIONS that this shooting was a racial murder and not just a neighborhood watch person doing his job .. or doing his job poorly ... or that Martin was really a jewlery thief in the neighborhood ... or that Martin instigated the event ... etc etc .... WE DO NOT KNOW because of the spin and the political correctness. It could be just about anything and we need to wait for the courts and not be part of the 'jumping to conclusions' bandwagon.

Originally posted by Kali74
Most of the sources in the OP are total crap, ironic..

The official White House release .. the Department of Justice ... The Orlando Sentinal ... Yahoo News ... Statements directly from church groups .... these are not 'total crap' sources. Deflection failure on your part.

i see a lot of "DONT JUMP TO CONCLUSION" but the OP is so biased and defending Zimmerman.

Zimmerman did a lot of he shouldn't do and ask for trouble, then killed someone and call it self defense. I always hated the media, but hating on media to justify a murder and make the murderer a hero is even worse.

Zimmerman started the whole thing, if he called police and went about his way, all this could have been avoided.

_____


If i found out someone was following me, i would confront him, possibly look for something to defend myself.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Apologies I meant to say threads.

Additional ATS threads on this - Trayvon Martin according to friends taunted Columbian friend Exclusive! First hand Witness: Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman Innocent Smoking Gun Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun What the MSM isn't telling you The Real Trayvon Martin(pics) what the MSM doesent want you to see

Those.

Originally posted by luciddream
i see a lot of "DONT JUMP TO CONCLUSION" but the OP is so biased and defending Zimmerman.

I'm pointing out the 'facts' that go against the 'facts' that have previously been posted.
Previously the 'facts' were all against Zimmerman. The new 'facts' are all in his favor.
It's just how the flow of 'facts' are coming out ... I HAVE NO IDEA if he's guilty of racially motivated
murder, or involuntary manslaughter, or if he's a victim of a smear campaign and he did what he
should have done ....

reply to post by Kali74
If I had to ask you Kali, why do you think so many on here are defending Zimmerman? A kid is dead and his family wants justice served but so many here have drastically differing views.

If you had to guess several reasons why, what would you say is causing them to defend Zimmerman so passionately? I am just curious.

reply to post by HumanoidX

since when would it not be necessary to defend yourself when your getting your head pounded in????and smashed on the ground?
Perhaps he was wrong in assuming the incident would go off in the normal way,with the tresspasser apologizing
and going his way but it didnt and its looking more like he had to make a decision to protect his life?

He could have stayed in his SUV and shined a flashlight on the kid. Zimmerman started the confrontation.

Originally posted by luciddream
i see a lot of "DONT JUMP TO CONCLUSION" but the OP is so biased and defending Zimmerman.

Zimmerman did a lot of he shouldn't do and ask for trouble, then killed someone and call it self defense. I always hated the media, but hating on media to justify a murder and make the murderer a hero is even worse.

Zimmerman started the whole thing, if he called police and went about his way, all this could have been avoided.

_____


If i found out someone was following me, i would confront him, possibly look for something to defend myself.

The reality is that you do not know what happened. You simply know what has been reported - and this has changed with each minute depending on who is writing the article.

The media usually gets it wrong, whether pro or anti something. They aren't too bothered by the truth, simply by numbers sold.

If it turns out, after trial, Zimmerman was wrong - fine, hang him out to dry. It would be what the guy deserves.

If, on the other hand, it turns out that he is innocent, what then? He will have already been hung out to dry and will probably never get back to having a normal life.

Basically, all i am saying is take the emotion out of it and wait for the truth of what happened.

Originally posted by Kali74
Apologies I meant to say threads. Those.

Ahhhh ... okay. I had to reference those because this thread is about people jumping to conclusions and so I referenced as many ATS threads on this that I could see. I may have missed more. But I thought they should be there for quick refernece ... etc ...

Originally posted by babybunnies
Someone was on CNN this morning asking for an "immediate trial" of George Zimmerman, televised on Court TV.

Exactly what I'm talking about .. thanks babybunnies There is a mob mentality to this. A - quick let's hang the racist murderer and not bother looking at everything - mentality. The politicians and newspapers are jumping on this so that they can all say they are politically correct.

I'm assuming that when he's found innocent there will be race riots in Miami and across the country?

That's the concern, isn't it? If it turns out Zimmerman is innocent in all this, will the courts be brave enough to state that? And even if he's out free, what of the threats against his life by the Black Panthers? What about all the hype coming from the black churches and black 'leaders' with 'justice for Trayvon Martin'?? What about justice for Zimmerman if he's innocent? What about waiting for the facts? This has been so racially hyped up that I don't doubt there would be racial riots or problems if Zimmerman is found innocent .... I wonder if Obama's Dept of (in)justice would allow the truth to come out if Zimmerman is actually innocent.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by HumanoidX

 

since when would it not be necessary to defend yourself when your getting your head pounded in????and smashed on the ground?
Perhaps he was wrong in assuming the incident would go off in the normal way,with the tresspasser apologizing
and going his way but it didnt and its looking more like he had to make a decision to protect his life?

He could have stayed in his SUV and shined a flashlight on the kid. Zimmerman started the confrontation.

Funny how your sig states "Just the facts, Ma'am" but you chose to ignore important facts!

Yes, I agree, he should have stayed in his car. But, he didn't. And Martin shouldn't have felt empowered to finish the confrontation either.

Maybe we should break down what would have motivated Trayvon to want to finish this.

reply to post by FlyersFan
I sense some bias in your post. I believe the biggest culprits here are the media. Sure you can have anxiety and blame the NBP and the black churches and impending race riots etc, etc but that is just fear running through your mind.

Again, the media has hyped this up to the max. Even the White House is jumping to conclusions. Why? Because folks there are human and this event has galvanized everyone and is causing unnecessary angst for all.

I am sure there are dozens of inner-city kids who were gunned down recently but there is little fanfare on those sad stories but yet this story has everyone up in arms. Think of why this is so.

reply to post by Jaellma


I think those that are passionately defending Zimmerman and just as passionately slandering Martin...it's pretty clear they they are looking to justify stereotypes, racism, racial profiling as well their own hatred.

I also see a lot of people genuinely concerned about the ramifications this tragedy could have, either on the second amendment or starting a race war.

As far a race war goes, if we are always one tragedy away from one...we haven't come nearly as far as we though or should have by now. Pretending racism doesn't exist doesn't make it go away, neither does being overly PC. I think it may be time once again for some genuine conversations about these issues.