Ostension and 2012

reply to post by GLontra


Although the initial discussion is about the Michigan area, there are comments about other places as well.

The point of the the 1923 comment is that records are set all of the time and records exist that have not been beaten for a long time. There is nothing there that suggests that records take a long time to beat. With the size of the Earth there are new records set all of the time.

Since the hottest years in recorded history seem to have been rather recent, it seems in a sense normal to have this happen.

www.sciencedaily.com...

What would be really odd is to have an unusually cold year this year.

reply to post by SonoftheSun


Common sense how old will you be in 2076? I will be dead of old age by then, and you too if my guess is correct. We only have so long on the planet then it is done.

reply to post by Oannes

You actually belive that every crop circle was created buy human hands? I've seen massive circles appear in seconds. Nobody there to hoax anything. Strange orbs also seem to play a role in creating these images. Light beings? Edfu texts anyone?

There are plenty of claims of instantaneous crop circles, but none are real.
The claims of strange orbs seem to have started with that really bad hoax video in which the person states that the orbs don't dim as they move away form the camera.

These are all installation art and they are done by clever people.

reply to post by stereologist


That was very interesting info, I can see how that would apply, my question would be, why are we "wired" to do this?

Sorry if this question is off topic, but this is fascinating to me.

reply to post by hanyak69

True Science thinks outside the box and is deemed crazy before it is proven then when proven and other scientists are convinced then it is accepted.

That is not at all how science works. Maybe you'd like to provide an example to illustrate what you are proposing.

Just like psuedo-science of evolution, no facts just theories that are accepted as facts.

Evolution is a fact. It's the theory that is being discussed.

How an educated person can accept evolution as fact is beyond me

How would you explain that the fossil record is very clear that at one time there were no fish in the oceans?
How would you explain that the fossil record is very clear that at one time there were no mammals?

Later there are fish. After that there are mammals. These are changes in the life on Earth. That is what evolution is about.

In our society you are looked down on if you don't believe in evolution as fact, which is craziness.

The fact of evolution is so clear in the fossil record that it is surprising that people do not believe in it. What is open to discussion are the various theories that discuss the mechanisms.

There is science that is accepted, but does that make it correct?

No. In 3 cases a Nobel prize winning work was shown to be wrong.

Our schools have become brainwashing facilities designed to keep people from thinking outside the box, know what you are told and do not question it. It is the attitude most Professors I know have! I have a Doctorate, I should know.

What distinguishes science is that the basic ideas are tested time and time again. Science is not teaching people facts. Science is all about experiments.

What is missing in many people today is critical thinking.

reply to post by stereologist


1) world being flat
2) adaptation is fact, evolution is not proven.
3) Prove without a doubt how old the world is! Fossil record? How can you determine the age of a fossil? Please do not show ignorance with saying carbon dating.
4-5) Creation is just as probable if not more so. To think we came from an ameoba is ridiculous to say the least think of the DNA transformation that would have to take place. No DNA to humans Improbable to say the least.
6) Again brainwashing at its best Evolution is a religion cause it is based on belief not facts. Fossil records are not accurate if so then why does the dates keep changing?
7) How has evolution been tested,with the same results over and over? If it always had the same results then we would not have the different species etc..., You shot evolution down as scientific fact with your own statement.

reply to post by hanyak69


The flat world model is really ancient. people have known that the world is not flat for thousands of years. As soon as people began to move a little from home they realized that the world was not flat. The flat earth model was rejected long before science existed.

Evolution is a fact. Adaptation is seen today in short periods of time. But over the fossil record evolution is well established.

The great age of the Earth has been known for hundreds of years. That was when relative time was the only known method. A host of dating methods today show that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Carbon dating only works for some 50,000 years at most.

Creation especially as presented in the bible is laughable. The bible can't even get the order of creation right. It has mammals before fish and with 2 versions in genesis you wonder why. Creation does not explain the fossil record.

Evolution is based on facts. Beliefs are relegated to people that fall for creation.

How has evolution been tested,with the same results over and over? If it always had the same results then we would not have the different species etc..., You shot evolution down as scientific fact with your own statement.

Good question. The fossil record provides the history of life on Earth. It can be compared against existing species. Evolution is tested by making predictions and finding those species that are predicted. A good example of this is the sequence of species in the evolution of whales.

The comment about "You shot evolution down as scientific fact with your own statement" makes no sense at all. You have made some odd illogical inferences and claim it applies to me. Not so.

You might want to learn how sciences such as astronomy perform experiments to learn the different ways in which science does testing of its ideas.

reply to post by stereologist


Critical thinking? as in believe what is said by scientist and nothing else? really?

reply to post by hanyak69

Critical thinking? as in believe what is said by scientist and nothing else? really?

Again. That is not how science works.

I realize that creation is impossible to justify in the overwhelming amount of evidence against it. That is why it is best to simply treat it as a belief that conflicts with the world we see around us.

Getting back to the flat earth claim, that was in response to

True Science thinks outside the box and is deemed crazy before it is proven then when proven and other scientists are convinced then it is accepted.

Do you have a different or better example of what you are proposing?

reply to post by stereologist


It is clear you have your OPINION and I have mine and probably never will the 2 meet.
Your response to carbon date shows what I assumed to be true. Carbon date is only accurate if you have a sample of the carbon 14 count in the living organism before its demise. The 50,000 year comment is inaccurate at best.
Astrology is based on theories that is why opinions change, if the facts were facts they would be unchangable.
To say evolution is a fact is dishonest at best. I was using the world is flat as an easy way of understanding the way mainstream thinking is obtained. This was just one example that shows how blind we can become when questioning science.
In the whale do you have monkey DNA? I did not think so!
I wish that evolutionists would just admit that it is not fact but theory. One day I hope you see what I am explaining to you. How do you get monkeys from ameobas? One level no animals then the next there are animals hmmmmm.
Makes sense to me, scientists can't be wrong,can they?

reply to post by stereologist


What evidence against it? because you say so???

reply to post by GLontra


It's to illustrate that weird weather, even record breaking weather, is not a new phenomena. Just because records were set doesn't mean anything. Look at any year and find me one where some weather record wasn't broken. If you can do that then that year will be the anomaly. As I said before the only reason you think this heat wave is special is because you have been conditioned to believe that 2012 is special.

reply to post by stereologist


Quantum Physics....is another example. When first presented the scientific communtiy thought it was crazy.
Tesla in his time was outcast as the same so-on so forth

reply to post by hanyak69


I hate to be a backseat mod, but the topic of this thread is ostension not evolution. If you can explain biodiversity without using evolution feel free to post in this thread. Make sure you read the OP before posting though.

Can you prove evolution wrong?

reply to post by hanyak69

It is clear you have your OPINION and I have mine and probably never will the 2 meet.

My statements are based on science and its rigorous testing of the issues.

Your response to carbon date shows what I assumed to be true. Carbon date is only accurate if you have a sample of the carbon 14 count in the living organism before its demise. The 50,000 year comment is inaccurate at best.

That is false. You do not need the living organism. Besides I did not refer to radio carbon dating. It offers too short a time period for dating of the Earth.

Astrology is based on theories that is why opinions change, if the facts were facts they would be unchangable.

Astrology is pseudoscience. It fails all of the tests.

To say evolution is a fact is dishonest at best.

Evolution is a fact. There are theories to explain the fact of evolution.

I was using the world is flat as an easy way of understanding the way mainstream thinking is obtained. This was just one example that shows how blind we can become when questioning science.

The flat earth is a failure since it was rejected before science was developed. Science does not behave as you claim.

In the whale do you have monkey DNA? I did not think so!

There are the same sequences just as there are the same sequences in other life forms.

I wish that evolutionists would just admit that it is not fact but theory. One day I hope you see what I am explaining to you. How do you get monkeys from ameobas? One level no animals then the next there are animals hmmmmm.
Makes sense to me, scientists can't be wrong,can they?

No. Theories are based on facts. Evolution is fact that has been established through many disciplines including the fossil record and biochemistry.

Amoebas and monkeys are not in the same kingdom. At best they shared a common ancestor billions of years ago. Both are eukaryotes. You are mixing protista and animalia.


Scientists are wrong. I already pointed out a mistake haven't I?

reply to post by hanyak69


Actually Planck's work was accepted almost immediately. Similar can be said for Tesla. The only reason Edison didn't accept his theories is because Edison was an egotistical maniac. There's a reason why he was immediately snatched up by Westinghouse.

reply to post by hanyak69


By 500BC the astrolabe was in use. Flat earth was done long before that. Science is a modern idea.

reply to post by hanyak69

Quantum Physics....is another example. When first presented the scientific communtiy thought it was crazy.

There were a number of well known problems that could not be explained with a continuous energy system. Energy in discrete bundles explained these issues. People were well aware of the issues and the debate and everyone involved was looking to be the first to corroborate or explain what was happening.

Please name some people calling quantum physics crazy?

reply to post by stereologist


Be back later got to get to the Lab. A researchers job is never done....and I am late for work.
Enjoyed the conversation will try to resume tomorrow.

One of the interesting issues that comes up in ostension is that failures become folklore.

Here we have several good examples of failures that have become as accepted as fact by the believers or should I say adherents.
1. Flat earth belief
2. Scientists form a rank and file group
3. Evolution has not happened
4. Astrology is science

The flat earth is a viable model for the Earth. It is used in surveying. Who lays out a building and takes into consideration that the Earth is a ball? The myth that Columbus thought the world was flat lives on.

Anyone can watch the news and on a regular basis see conflicts in science from discussions of global warming to medicine to solar modeling to whatever to know that scientists do not all believe the same thing and have different ideas that they want to test.

The fossil record is very clear. At one time no multicellular creatures. At one time no land animals. At one time no fish. At one time no reptiles.

Somehow astrology has a reputation for having tested positive despite a long record of failures. Each failed test seems to spur the acolytes into the belief that it must be correct.