Mass Effect 3 Ending Debate

DISCLAIMER: If you want to continue with this debate must READ every word I say. It seems you are stopping at a few key points then quickly pressed the reply button without understanding why I made my statements."

For starters, I'll make it clear that Mass Effect as a whole is good enough to stand on its own despite it's flaws. However, ME as it is will not stand the test of time and has continued to deviate from it's original vision and fails to take a direction that goes above satisfactory standards. It's a franchise that will lose value as more games are created. Unlike classic titles which even til today are considered to be irreplaceable. It's value can also be easily lost by playing alternative titles that accomplish the original fundamental goal of the franchise.

So if you think my problem lies with the indoctrination theory itself, please reread my bolded statements from previous responses. It's an impressive theory from the fans but it's poorly executed from the developers side IF it was intentional. Now of it's no longer the case, and whether it IS or ISN'T the case was never my concern. My concern is what Bioware did given the amount of time and money they had. And as far as I see, they took the 'phat' opportunity to take the easy way out, get more $, and miss the opportunity to make a masterpiece.

Lets talk about substance.
In comparison to other titles with a similar design purpose (Baldeurs Gate 2, 999), the whole series is pale in comparison in terms of substance.

If we put into perspective the value of the characters as well as the lore, Mass Effect just doesn't do much at all if your looking into it's substance.

You build up characters who end up being expendable anyways, and ultimately regardless of who you build up the fundamental scenarios end up being the same.

Let's put it this way. If you befriend a person, build a relationship, part ways, then afterwards evaluate your life and figure out nothing has really changed, then that person was not that influential. Not that he/she was a bad person, but if life hasn't changed then what's that persons worth besides 'our time was great'?

As great as some of the characters are, there's virtually little to no value to your journey besides being there if their presence doesn't drive the whole story. In fact: the non playable characters like Anderson and Joker play a MUCH bigger role, and at least Joker saves the ship and always pulls through.

Furthermore, many of the things that manipulate the 'experience' come from scenarios where your direct intervention allows a little bit of a branch off. But what about some of your small choices, or the things you didn't even notice you did? Recall a time when you forgot your keys to the house or you forgot a calculator for a math test. Or even a time when you took the wrong route, ran into a traffic jam, then became late for a date you really meant to be on time for. Those have a large impact as to what can happen in life, yet all of it was a result of subtle occurrence. None of which ME takes advantage of.

All of which games that have a lower budget and were made without any guarantee of success do a much better job at.

9 people 9 doors 9 hours is a game (or rather visual novel) that's a great example. Because not only does the game deviate into 9 routes which all branch off into wildly different scenarios, but each ending contributes to the 'final ending' despite being separate and seemingly unrelated. it's to the point you HAVE to go through the worst case scenario to be able to access the final ending. And many of the deviations are caused by your SUBTLE actions, not your direct responses. (Direct response as in lets do this, lets kill that kind of thing)

Further more, each character DRIVES the story, and their backgrounds as well as the history that revolves your situation plays an active part in the world you have been thrown into.

This is just ONE example of many btw.

Here's my question: with all the $ and guarantee success that they have, WHY couldn't they have done at least half of that?

Were seeing this a lot in modern day games, where they continue to do less to make more $ and still manage to win hearts & souls because of their superior marketing.

There's a whole lot of Hollywood cinematic and atmospheric masking that it really makes the experience seem new and exciting despite whats actually there.

In the end, there's not much substance. There's A LOT of DETAIL, i know because I've spent some time with some of the books and history of ME. BUT they don't play a role in YOUR experience as Shepherd. It's like ancient history, sure it did something to get us where we are, but it's out of sight out of mind because it does little to what our concerns are today. In the same manner, those details that make up the lore don't influence your actions in the ME games, which is a waste of potential and could of been used to create a definitive franchise that will stand the test of time. Mass Effect as is will be swept under the rug unless they make more content. Last time I checked, REAL Classics didn't need new games or DLC.

Just my two cents, I liked my ending to ME3. It was intense, and felt like an excellent conclusion to my Shepard's story.
It wasn't until I went online (I totally blacked out all info until I completed the game, today as a matter of fact.) that I saw what all the hub-bub was about. The "the only diffrence was the color schemes" arguement, and I see how that would upset more than a few people.
Then I watched the video about indoctrination by Angry Joe, and I think it explains things pretty well. And like he said, even if this wasn't Bioware's intent, they should probably borrow that fan-fic, because it makes a heck of a lot of sense!
Also, if Bioware thinks they're tricking me out of any more money so I can get "the real ending", sorry, no dice. I spent my 60 bucks for the conclusion to an epic trilogy, not a half point that can be settled for as an ending.
If it was an indoctrination dream, and I kinda think it was at this point, then the Shepard as I knew her is gone, lost to the Reapers. I can see how that might upset people, but not me. Bioware blew my mind through-out the series by offering tales that were a break from the normal rpg tripe. My character losing the mental battle with the Reapers wasn't expected, but it sure made one hell of a story.

Bioware didn't live up to its promise

16 distinct endings based on how you played. Your assets mattered, etc

There was 1 ending with very few minor bits changed
There was no consequence to any choices you made in the game that effected the end.
There was no choice with ending either. You unquestioningly accept that synthetics will destroy organics always...(just don't look out at the space battle where quarians and the geth are holding hands fighting the reapers...and hopefully Edi wasn't listening).

The game was 95% win..total epic omg this is great win...fantastic, bravo
And, for the ME franchise as a whole...best freaking gaming experience in such a long time. Incredible work, I would recommend it 1000 times to everyone to play through (in order) and take your time, because when its over, you will miss it.

But, the ending of ME3..no..that went from absolute greatness to...I don't even know what to say about it.
No, there didn't have to be a happy ending...but, there should have actually been. in a game where your choice dictates everything since the beginning of ME1, its not too difficult to figure out a happy ending, and a total disaster ending, and 14 other levels in between (as promised). Not a single ending no matter what.

Now

A absolutely fantastic, brilliant, great thing happened from the ending. the mass effect fans put a puzzle together due to just how sheer crap the ending was and concluded Shep was indoctrinated. This not only solved every issue almost every gamer had with this, but it became profoundly omg how brilliant is bioware type moment.

And the fans became amazed at just how incredible this company is..the level of genius..and it seemed there would be if not a DLC we all would pay for, then a new mass effect in the works that we would all be waiting with baited breath for.

But, they destroyed that...nope, the ending is actually the ending...we aren't that smart..we didn't think of that, we will just give you a few more cut scenes to dismiss this indoctrination theory and shoot ourselves 300 times in the foot.

I don't want a happy (or sad) ending, I wanted an ending if it was the end...one that represented who I was. Me, the guy whom accepted Edi to work next to us unshackled..Me, the guy whom fought over 2 games to reunite the quarians and geth into a perfect alliance...no, I don't accept synths will murder always without question. No, I won't control the reapers for whatever stupid purpose as AIs are individuals, No, I won't merge with them to..again, control them and turn them organic...neither of those three are what my shep has learned and fought for, took bullets for, and didn't back down on. The ending is a lie. the ending is not an end..therefore, people are correct in not accepting it.

Anyhow, thats my thoughts on it

reply to post by SaturnFX


I hear you on that.

I also believe that fans are generally more creative than developers given that the final product truly represents their ideas. Which is why the indoctrination theory is only impressive because the fan's are the ones that connected the pieces, and not because of the developers effects to make it so.

And the reason I say that is because regardless of how impressive the concept is, the execution is still poor and could easily have done better. (this is taking in consider that the indoctrination was indeed something that the developers implemented before the games release) Being direct about it would of been a better choice given the way they decided to execute the story in ME3.

And that's where the fault is at. I've exposed myself to multitudes of titles that are dedicated to the story aspect of gaming so I'm not particularly impressed with ME as a whole. It's not bad or terrible for that matter, but it's just not up to par based on my experience, mostly because it fails implement concepts that would of pushed the story to greater heights like the indoctrination theory. And when I mean implement, I mean actively applying it to the circumstances that influences the player or characters decisions and outcomes.

IMO Mass Effect had a lot of potential but it sacrificed it due to it's intent to appeal to a wide variety of audiences. Many games have proven that it does not have to sacrifice it's ambitious ideas to do that, and it's unfortunate that publishers and developers alike believe that they have to compromise it for the sake of profits.

edit on 13-5-2012 by GambitVII because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-5-2012 by GambitVII because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Lasr1oftheJedi
Just my two cents, I liked my ending to ME3. It was intense, and felt like an excellent conclusion to my Shepard's story.
It wasn't until I went online (I totally blacked out all info until I completed the game, today as a matter of fact.) that I saw what all the hub-bub was about. The "the only diffrence was the color schemes" arguement, and I see how that would upset more than a few people.
Then I watched the video about indoctrination by Angry Joe, and I think it explains things pretty well. And like he said, even if this wasn't Bioware's intent, they should probably borrow that fan-fic, because it makes a heck of a lot of sense!
Also, if Bioware thinks they're tricking me out of any more money so I can get "the real ending", sorry, no dice. I spent my 60 bucks for the conclusion to an epic trilogy, not a half point that can be settled for as an ending.
If it was an indoctrination dream, and I kinda think it was at this point, then the Shepard as I knew her is gone, lost to the Reapers. I can see how that might upset people, but not me. Bioware blew my mind through-out the series by offering tales that were a break from the normal rpg tripe. My character losing the mental battle with the Reapers wasn't expected, but it sure made one hell of a story.

What is sad is just how incredible ME2 was when you compare ME2 to ME3.
Absolutely stunning gameplay, consequences, etc..then 3 is..meh.

I am sort of in agreement with Gambit here..they really dulled the blade of the series...ME1 and 2 made you all but cry at just how amazing it was..3 was..well, it was a good game in itself, but when you put its predecessors against it, it is not only very out of place, but clearly not reaching the same level of achievements.

I look at ME3 and think of moments that were truely awesome. Uniting the geth and quarians..then hearing about how the geth and quarian unification is leaping the quarians immunity by decades, rebuilding the planet where it will be years verses generations for them to chill.
Or Wrex and Eve ultimately being the krogan adam and eve that is fundamentally changing their culture..
Things like that were definitely worthy of the series.

But the game itself doesn't hold the weight that the first two had..you don't sit back and just think of the whole game and go wow...you think of parts, yes..definately..but the whole game just makes you confused.

For the true fans of ME, you start wondering about the dark energy issue...why it kept being brought up in 1 and 2, but then suddenly dropped (when it was supposed to be the plot).

Can their be a ME4? sure. kick it forward a hundred years and resolve all plot hooks..this is actually simple no matter how you altered the galaxy (if you didn't cure the genophage, someone else would have, if you killed the geth, well, more geth eventually made nice, or if you killed the quarians, you only killed the main fleets, but the civilians were captured and made nice, etc...aka, it can be easily repaired). But, I do hope they learned the lesson here.

Their latest interview (hour long Q/A) they spoke, like it was a good thing, that they barely took on any new talent for creating ME3. But, with all the plot twists and hooks, they should have tripled the staffing and coding. They were making tons of money and it was a sure hit...they overextended the handful of developers, took every shortcut imaginable, and made the entire ending a retarded single vision for unknown reasons that makes plot hook resolution difficult.

Shepherd is definately done though..there will be no more adventures of shepherd according to them..and its pretty much set in stone that the indoc theory is fan fiction.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Shepherd is definitely done though..there will be no more adventures of shepherd according to them..and its pretty much set in stone that the indoc theory is fan fiction.

Wonderful post, didn't mean to cut it to the last, honest. Just agreed so much with the rest of it, there was no point in reiterating.

As for the quoted, no doubt right? But awesome fan fic, all the same. It shows the devotion of the fans of the series trying to make sense out of what the ending we were given was. I enjoyed it anyways. And as you said, 3 had it's epic moments, but it's hard to work a trilogy.

Even starwars suffered this. I worked a whole thread on the curse of being the third in a series. It's never easy. But in the end, none of us would be satisfied with how ME ended, because let's face it, none of us wanted it to end. Still, color different endings only kinda killed me inside. Though, it wasn't until the internet revealed to me that was the case. As I stated before, the ending was awesome to me, until I realized it was only one of three. All the choices made to a point, my Shepard or yours, came down to "Let's make a deal: door 1, door 2 or door 3". I think they could've done more to make differences in the way they closed the story. But I also agree, it makes it easy to sequel another in the story, because, no matter the choices made, they can just explain it away. This is what made 3 less than 2 and certainly 1. In 2, what you did in 1 mattered. In 3, not so much. And now, as with Halo, they can continue the series without worrying about those epic choices you were forced to face, because there's always an "out" instead of the work required to make it fit the "chose your own story".

I enjoyed Mass Effect, all of it, I truly did. But I won't be spending another dime on content for a story that should've been concluded in my purchase. They've turned into Halo, a cash cow. I fear for the future of the ME universe because of it.

Originally posted by Lasr1oftheJedi
I enjoyed Mass Effect, all of it, I truly did. But I won't be spending another dime on content for a story that should've been concluded in my purchase. They've turned into Halo, a cash cow. I fear for the future of the ME universe because of it.

edit on 9-6-2012 by Lasr1oftheJedi because: A transition of thought

It depends.
There is a lot that remains unresolved..not just like some fancy extras or a DLC pack that can resolve it, but actual deep and profound issues going on in the universe that was built up and then not touched on.

I think future mass effects will focus in on the really big problem, which is dark energy (mass effect 2, you got tali on a world where the sun was rapidly and unnaturally decaying...a perfectly stable sun suddenly ready to go nova a couple hundred years later..dark energy..element zero actually..the reason why mass relays were left).

Every civilization evolves around eezo tech, it understands it, it studies it, it was left (the relays) for the purpose of having all development constantly invest their brains into this technology for the purposes of truely understanding it (and thereby noticing the big issue of the galaxy eating itself through dark energy).
This was actually a big deal, but it was building up in 1 and definitely 2.

I suspect the reapers were a bit like V-ger from the original star trek movie...a robotic command that over time became corrupt to the initial programming.

I think it only goes into the jumping the shark scenario if they bring back Shepherd. They said the story of Shep was a trilogy, so they are both stuck with that statement technically, and also they should start moving on. He did his part.
I do hope that next series of games they base it more on less plot hooks and more renegade v paragon score effecting you than choices made over several games...some choices, yes..but the more choices per game you carry over, the more the quality degrades as games move on. A refocus on fewer plot hooks and more consideration for par/ren score would be a much easier coding, and would actually be more immersive (full renegade person walking up to a store wouldn't be excited love..they would be stuttering and trying to not die from the iron fisted Shepherd the Ruthless). Maybe even open up missions based on a high par/ren score, and new connections to teammates. Just consideration for the mechanics. The reason they want to drop Shepherd now, not just because they said so, but because the storyline is too complex for them to code..they would need to do like 10 distinctly different games now to accomplish a single release.

The franchise is not dead.
We are told to hold onto our saves (unknown reason, which I find worrying..I love the ME universe, and totally want more..MOAR!. I suspect the save games is simply info on how to justify why everything is a certain way for a future title...
Such as:
Quarians and geth are together now on their homeworld. Your savegame where you killed the quarians means they integrated after the reapers were gone..what was left of the floatilla hiding was captured by the geth, and a truce. and peace, came from it.

if you chose the murder all synthetics option, that didn't effect unhoused AIs...aka, programs. it destroyed the shells that things inhabited, as this is what the reapers were..housed AIs in a shell..kill the shell, you kill the AI.
Edi, Geth, etc..these are programs existing in databases outside of the shells...it makes no sense for anything to be able to destroy that without destroying every single bit of technology throughout the galaxy, from super starships, to a simple can opener...so that ancient red colorfield would only kill shells, but actually leave the new way of creating synthetics alone...build a new shell and voila, no loss.

The developers over at bioware are not saying they are trying to retire now...they are excited..hinting at the future of the franchise that will make fans jaws drop..so, its time to figure out how they possibly could, and what needs to be addressed..and perhaps a bit of speculation as to direction that would add to the universe verses simply jump the shark for profits only.
I don't mind the profits angle..they make a good title, take my money please..but it must be clever and adds to verses alters or deteriorates.

I am actually making a video. The were to now. Might make a little thread to shamelessly promote it on ATS for discussions..just open questions based on observations.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The ending was good enough
because it was not the ending

The last 5 minutes of the game was happening in Shepherds mind, there is no god child, there is no choice of control, meld, or destruction, there is only Shepherd taking a indoctrination nap at the base of the reaper ship.

No. No no no.
Swiss cheese
Sponges
Old socks
Just a short list of things that have less holes in them than Indoctrination Theory.


But anyways, moving on...
I felt the ending was a let down, however, I didn't hate it. I'm waiting for the EC DLC before I pass final judgement though.

Originally posted by FluffyCannibal

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The ending was good enough
because it was not the ending

The last 5 minutes of the game was happening in Shepherds mind, there is no god child, there is no choice of control, meld, or destruction, there is only Shepherd taking a indoctrination nap at the base of the reaper ship.

No. No no no.
Swiss cheese
Sponges
Old socks
Just a short list of things that have less holes in them than Indoctrination Theory.


But anyways, moving on...
I felt the ending was a let down, however, I didn't hate it. I'm waiting for the EC DLC before I pass final judgement though.

Indoc theory has very few holes actually...been talked to death and picked apart..every sentence from the codex matches something in the final game, especially the last bit..but
There is no indoc theory. Bioware has made it pretty clear its fan fiction (without directly stating it).
The ending was good...the problem was, it was only 1 ending,
Choose to become the biggest ass in the galaxy, kill the geth, destroy the krogans chances of survival, get tons of your teammates killed, etc etc etc..you get green light/merge ending. Alternatively, become the saint of the milky way, unite god and satan themselves, help every cat out of a tree, you can get the green light/merge ending...and of course every other option being pretty much exactly the same (big difference, reapers fly off verses reapers die, and a different colored light).

I wanted a yellow explosion!!!



The game was pretty good...not as great as the second in my opinion, but still good..they just really nerfed the ending...and although it more than likely is just really bad writing and shortcutting just to end it easily, it -could have- been brilliant if they simply listened to the fans.

If I was Bioware, I would focus all my efforts of the EC doing work on the end, but leave everything from citadel on up totally alone...maybe even toss in a few snippets to even further push the indoc theory and make a stronger case for it. They could walk out of this smelling less like...horse manure..if they not only keep it alive, but give even more evidence of it...but I suspect this EC will be knocking down many of the arguments of it.

Anyhow, if the EC sucks, I am just going to tack this on to the end and everything will be right as rain

Luke = Shepherd
Han = Garrus
Wookie = Wrex (no medal for him!)
Princess = Liara
C3PO + R2 = Edi and Joker of course

Then wait for the movie (by an all elcor cast)

Originally posted by GambitVII
IMO Mass Effect had a lot of potential but it sacrificed it due to it's intent to appeal to a wide variety of audiences. Many games have proven that it does not have to sacrifice it's ambitious ideas to do that, and it's unfortunate that publishers and developers alike believe that they have to compromise it for the sake of profits.

So...
Just got done playing the extended cuts.
Seems we were both wrong now...indoc was definitely not even given a consideration..and the ending was actually very deep and fantastic...just not even remotely explained, and the consequences left out.

Totally back on the fan bandwagon now..they did well, and all things considered, the EC proved that bioware does have the kung fu to turn a turd into a diamond...master storytellers...but thank god for the fan community that gave constructive criticism and demanded they make this right...I can now happily put mass effect down now with satisfaction verses the...confused disappointment of before and simply say that whole series from start to finish was epic.

The people on the boards have now shifted their yacking from a unified "the ending sucks and made no sense" to demanding which ending made more sense..
Of course the people that became religious about indoctrination are still upset because..bioware didn't fully redo their end to suit them specifically...so it is just a case of "butthurt"..but I guess they are free to open up their own development company and do things as they see fit.

Originally posted by FluffyCannibal

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The ending was good enough
because it was not the ending

The last 5 minutes of the game was happening in Shepherds mind, there is no god child, there is no choice of control, meld, or destruction, there is only Shepherd taking a indoctrination nap at the base of the reaper ship.

No. No no no.
Swiss cheese
Sponges
Old socks
Just a short list of things that have less holes in them than Indoctrination Theory.


But anyways, moving on...
I felt the ending was a let down, however, I didn't hate it. I'm waiting for the EC DLC before I pass final judgement though.

So...thoughts on the EC then?

for me...total thumbs up. 4/5. But part of me wonders if that is because I had such low expectations. high expectations always disappoints, low expectations always surprises...

I need to become cynical when starting out a game...will always enjoy them then.

I've been looking it up and I didn't see much from what they did. And even my 'mass effect friends' agree with me at this point. It's practically damage control.

They are all an extension of their endings + the addition to the right to refuse. Yet none of it adds value to the story, it only mitigated the damage.

All of the endings are just bonuses so that people can say that each ending has a little bit more individuality with the addition of the right to deny. But none of them even comes close to the level of the indoctrination which would of been the right move in their part. (which is still not all that deep even if they did it but its the best alternative)

As far as what they have delivered, I can't call the experience deep at all. All of the background information is irrelevant to the game-play and knowing it's history doesn't make you look at Mass Effect and say "wow, I can;'t see it the same way anymore!" And the reason behind that is simply this: (indoctrination comes close to doing it, but not quite in a mind blowing way since the game never took full advantage of it and is only made interesting through speculation)

Your actions and the background of the story act separately as far as the story you experience in all three games are concerned and not much of it is used as a long term plot device

If an example need be a game that's deep, The deep games I know does things like utilizing theories from Freud and Carl Jung to drive the background and the present time plot simultaneously. (Seriously, there's even things like transmigration and all of them are used as plot devices unlike all the 'deep' stories nowadays.)
www.xgam.org...

here's some cutouts. (Keep in mind, they are practically spoilers because BOTH the history and the events happening presently in game are TIED. Many of the plot twists intertwine with the past and the entire history of the game does get exposed during gameplay)

Exposition of the depth of Xenogears (Planescape Torment would be a good example of western deep)

www.xgam.org...


A psychoanalysis on Fei

The fundamental cause of Fei’s disturbed psychosis is due to the Contact Abel made with the Wave Existence 10,000 years ago. The transference of information and the connection of two vastly different minds was a prime cause of the Fei/Id and also the Lacan/Grahf phenomena. Whilst the first instance of ‘Contact’ was not the direct cause of Fei - or Lacan’s - altered psychosis, the 2nd Contact - made by Lacan after the death of Sophia - probably played some role in the manifestation of Id within Fei, and there is also evidence to suggest that Grahf is in fact, a manifestation of Lacan’s Id.

Meanings behind the Stars of Tears lyrics

Believe it or not, Stars of tears actually has a lot of relevance to the Xenogears game, in particular, its storyline. (Please note that the words features here are not an absolute 'copy' of what is sung.) Before we begin though, it's important for you to realize that the song is actually intended to be describing Elly's point of view.

...
(4) Of angel music held in chains. - This line is about the shackles of humanity. Line 3 and 4 are talking about the same thing. So whilst line 3 talks about the lingering memories of humanity, line 4 talks about how that (humanity) is shackled (chained). One theory here, is that they are talking about Deus, and the 'slavery' 'he' placed on humanity. (Let's face it, they were slaves, as their sole purpose in life was to be parts for Deus when he was resurrected).

(Chorus) - Basically, line 6 - 9 is talking about the destruction of the planet, and the horror humanity experienced by the hands of Deus and Solaris. Elly always wanted to help the people of the planet because she was so much like mother Sophia. And the chorus reflects this, and is talking about the events from the Soylent system onwards, and may be intended to continue right up to and beyond the end of the game.

Transmigration and Xenogears

The plot of Xenogears relies heavily on transmigration/reincarnation. Throughout the Xenogears story, there has always been the Contact and the Anti-type (Elly). Throughout the era's in which the Contact has lived, the Anti-type has always died, and the Contact, unable to bear the pain of seperation from his love, (probably) died very soon after. Consequently, the Contact and the Anti-type are both reborn, and destined to meet, and fall in love - again.

Philosophical Theories and Xenogears

Delving into a book on philosophy I found the following quote from the Greek philosopher Xenophanes who lived in about 470 B.C: "Man makes God's in his own image". As far as we know Xenophanes was one of the first thinkers to challenge the existence of a God or God's and seek explanations for such things as sickness, and why the plants grow, in the natural world....

"But what has all this to do with Xenogears?" I hear you ask. Well, the idea of a universal purpose is one central to the plot of Xenogears - all humanity being components of Deus and destined one day to rejoin it.