Mass Effect 3 Ending Debate

reply to post by listerofsmeg


If Xenosaga and Xenogears used swords in the first place, you'd have a valid argument.
However, Xenogears is mostly martial arts with Killer Machines and Xenosaga deals with projectiles and Killer machines as well.

Well, if you do decide to skip out on them then it's your loss. Xenogears and Xenosaga are one of the most intelligently composed titles in gaming, despite having some flaws, they are still generally appreciated by a sect of gamers who have a much higher standard than what the MSM offers.

There are other games of which i have mentioned, but those aren't Sci-fi.

reply to post by listerofsmeg


If Xenosaga and Xenogears used swords in the first place, you'd have a valid argument.
However, Xenogears is mostly martial arts with Killer Machines and Xenosaga deals with projectiles and Killer machines as well.

Well, if you do decide to skip out on them then it's your loss. Xenogears and Xenosaga are one of the most intelligently composed titles in gaming, despite having some flaws, they are still generally appreciated by a sect of gamers who have a much higher standard than what the MSM offers.

There are other games of which i have mentioned, but those aren't Sci-fi.

reply to post by SaturnFX


An interesting sort of ending and would leave the door open to part 4.

But the question still remains if they can do that, and mess with one persons mind like that to indoctrinate them without them even knowing it with some sort of space beam, or whatever. Well why don't they since there supposed to be light-years more advanced anyways, so much so that the technology that is used in the whole game world is the technology they left behind to be found.

Well why not just implant some sort of program or even beam every-single creature in the citadel since the mass relays and the citadel was created by them in the first place, from all I remember of when I was playing the first and second game. If you think about it like that then really there is no reason for a giant armada to destroy anything, since they could just take over and indoctrinate every singe creature withing there structures or within the proximity of there structures or the mass relays.

In fact you could just set something into the mass relays that could do that, a program or something, that will be able to do that or secretly blast the ships using them, and since they use them over and over again for ages and ages. Really whats to stop them from basically indoctrinating or brain washing everybody over time into a matrix type reality like commander shepherd is experiencing?

Really then there would be no need to take over anything since you basically already have control of everything. I know there are always holes in any story or videogame but I think the developers and game-makers started out with a grand ol vision, but they just fell short of that and had to improvise and crunch the story to get a end game.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

An interesting sort of ending and would leave the door open to part 4.

Although the game was said to initially be a Trilogy, they caught up with the developers, and basically they said no, they are not killing their franchise. the Mass Effect universe will be going on and on and...etc.
The only question is, will ME4 be with Shepherd, or someone else down the line.

But the question still remains if they can do that, and mess with one persons mind like that to indoctrinate them without them even knowing it with some sort of space beam, or whatever. Well why don't they since there supposed to be light-years more advanced anyways, so much so that the technology that is used in the whole game world is the technology they left behind to be found.

Thats exactly what indoctrination is. a person doesn't even know he is being indoctrinated. There are two types of indoctrination, one being very slow and soft over time. Sort of like an undercurrent. This is arguably what was happening to Shepherd in all of ME3. And then there is a direct fast way..which is basically stabbing or shooting them with something that rapidly indoctrinates them..the second way, if successful, is limited success however as it ultimately rapidly destroys the mind and body, less useful, Good way to take care of problematic ones though.
What happened to Shepherd was, he got hit by a beam, and voila, everything changed..from trees in his nightmare world, to the oily cloud type people atmosphere...odd time passage, etc..aka, it appeared very much like he was in a dream..and everything after that only became even more convincing of the dream/rapid indoctrination theory.

Well why not just implant some sort of program or even beam every-single creature in the citadel since the mass relays and the citadel was created by them in the first place, from all I remember of when I was playing the first and second game. If you think about it like that then really there is no reason for a giant armada to destroy anything, since they could just take over and indoctrinate every singe creature withing there structures or within the proximity of there structures or the mass relays.

The reapers are the program...the machines.
The citidel was not actually created by the reapers (or protheans)..something much, much older created that.
The only way to rapidly indoctrinate someone is through direct contact of a sort, or a slower melding..but one has to be open to it for that, Good for target indoctrination, not good for planetary wipeouts.

In fact you could just set something into the mass relays that could do that, a program or something, that will be able to do that or secretly blast the ships using them, and since they use them over and over again for ages and ages. Really whats to stop them from basically indoctrinating or brain washing everybody over time into a matrix type reality like commander shepherd is experiencing?

Again, they do send something through the mass relays..its called the reapers.
And ya, thats what they are doing...killing and/or indoctrinating all organic life in the galaxy that is above caveman technology. Liquifying them, then making those races into reapers themselves for posterity or some such.

Really then there would be no need to take over anything since you basically already have control of everything. I know there are always holes in any story or videogame but I think the developers and game-makers started out with a grand ol vision, but they just fell short of that and had to improvise and crunch the story to get a end game.

They aren't trying to take over anything...they are just an automated program that comes in and wipes out any advanced, or even slightly advanced civilization..a reset button every 50k years. The whole story actually makes good sense except for the last 10 minutes (unless its indoctrination)...otherwise, its pretty well put together. There is soo much info out there in the universe (the ME universe) that there is no stone left unturned and unaccounted for.
But ya, I think they were running out of ideas when the end came up. And either left it in potentially such a bad, if not insulting ending for the fans, or they actually came up with an absolutely brilliant ending that most didn't catch initially..and its not an actual ending.
Most ME fans would become angry at the idea that the end wasn't the end, but also be quite happy if that meant there would be a ME4 (and more) with their Shepherd.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Although the game was said to initially be a Trilogy, they caught up with the developers, and basically they said no, they are not killing their franchise. the Mass Effect universe will be going on and on and...etc.

They will probably do spin offs or different games set in the same universe. But if there planing on doing a part 4 they better fill all the holes in the story.

What happened to Shepherd was, he got hit by a beam, and voila, everything changed..from trees in his nightmare world, to the oily cloud type people atmosphere...odd time passage, etc..aka, it appeared very much like he was in a dream..and everything after that only became even more convincing of the dream/rapid indoctrination theory.

Never got past the middle of the second game so I am not to sure. One day maybe I will sit down and finnish the whole trilogy, but not going to happen anytime soon I think. But if its all a dream, like I said why not just zap everybody else with this dream beam and turn them all into thralls.

The reapers are the program...the machines. The citidel was not actually created by the reapers (or protheans)..something much, much older created that. The only way to rapidly indoctrinate someone is through direct contact of a sort, or a slower melding..but one has to be open to it for that, Good for target indoctrination, not good for planetary wipeouts.

It was my impression that the ones who created the reapers created the citadel and the whole thing, then they to got wiped out by the reapers. And the protheans were another race that evolved and found the mass relays, which in a way if it was not created by them. They at least have much more information on what and how they were all created then anybody else... So in a way the questions still stands if in the hundreds of thousands of years why did they not just build this indoctrination program into all the relays.

It should be basically as easy for them to do, as it is for Shepherd to build fences around the flock of sheep. If you know what Im saying.

Again, they do send something through the mass relays..its called the reapers. And ya, thats what they are doing...killing and/or indoctrinating all organic life in the galaxy that is above caveman technology. Liquifying them, then making those races into reapers themselves for posterity or some such.

Must be in part 3, as I said dont have all the details of the story.

They aren't trying to take over anything...they are just an automated program that comes in and wipes out any advanced, or even slightly advanced civilization..a reset button every 50k years.

If they are just a program then they must of had a programmer. And if every 50k years they do the same thing then whoever programmed them must of did it for a reason. I do not see them just chilling in space then every once in a while coming around because there bored of bio-life and deciding to wipe them out like clockwork every 50k years. If there under there own power then they would have wiped clean that programing and who knows maybe everywere already there would only be geth style life or basically only machines around.

So if they do a part 4, then that is just another question need be answered.

Most ME fans would become angry at the idea that the end wasn't the end, but also be quite happy if that meant there would be a ME4 (and more) with their Shepherd.

I think they just ran out of ideas and got bogged down by the complexity of the choices and the story. As you can see by the holes in the story and the rushed ending. So if they do a part 4 or whatever I think it will be a go by your pants improvise and expand on the original story.

And in some cases some of the best stories came to be like that a sort of improvise. Who knows, we will see I suppose. However we wont see what comes of it for a while I think.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


You bring a lot of good points to the table, and it's sad that ,many 'fans' are willing to accept it considering that rejecting it would actually help the Mass Effect series. (it helps the writers know not to make weak plots that try to be deep)

I wouldn't go any further than where you are at. There are many other games out there that do stellar work in providing substance. So unless your looking for a 'new' game with great graphics to kill some time, ME3 isn't that game for you. (and me as well)

The biggest problem about ME3 is that it literally goes against everything that ME was SUPPOSE to be. It has full of expendable characters who only matter when you participate in THEIR missions. And in the end, you can literally go on without them and they do very little to shape and influence the FUNDAMENTAL plot. Which as far as I'm concerned, not good enough for a game that was meant to have characters that 'drive' the experiencing.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I suggest you watch this video. It's not a 'rage or bashing' video. It actually brings to light a lot of the details that hurt the direction they took for the game as far as the ending is concerned.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Never got past the middle of the second game so I am not to sure. One day maybe I will sit down and finnish the whole trilogy, but not going to happen anytime soon I think. But if its all a dream, like I said why not just zap everybody else with this dream beam and turn them all into thralls.

It starts getting pretty great in late game (just make sure to do upgrades and get all the party loyal to you)
Rapid indoctrination basically melts the person in a matter of days, slow indoctrination allows the person to be a functional thrall for years.
They want Shepherd, he has influence, power, etc...it is he that they are targetting specifically so he can..do whatever. call off the attack, etc...
Reapers ultimate goal is total destruction of organics, but to get there, they need to do good ole smashing, but also infiltrate at the highest levels. Shepherd took down a couple reapers pretty much singlehandedly, so they are not immortal, and can lose with a focused sharp repelling. So they need to work on all angles, both brute force, and snaking their way behind the scenes.
They have been targetting Shepherd for quite awhile, but when he is very close to threatening all of them, thats when they give up on the slow indoctrination and zap him with rapid indoctrination..his threat level has superseded his usefulness as a long term thrall.

It was my impression that the ones who created the reapers created the citadel and the whole thing, then they to got wiped out by the reapers. And the protheans were another race that evolved and found the mass relays, which in a way if it was not created by them. They at least have much more information on what and how they were all created then anybody else... So in a way the questions still stands if in the hundreds of thousands of years why did they not just build this indoctrination program into all the relays.

It should be basically as easy for them to do, as it is for Shepherd to build fences around the flock of sheep. If you know what Im saying.

The ultimate goal is not to stop organics from never evolving, but rather to farm them. The reapers are actually millions of years old, and ya, the citadel is created from the race that created the reapers (theoretically) and kept updated by the keepers (strange spider builder thingies).
To make a auto-indoctrination for all relays would end up stagnating growth, and at the same time, not turn anything useful.
the reapers are collecting the organics to preserve the dna of whatever advanced civ pops up for eternity, so they don't go extinct. they make their own reapers with new civilization, but the point is, its to preserve the organics overall, not to simply destroy them. The destruction in question is just the active civilization aspect, they don't want to eradicate them forever period..its a twisted program serving no real purpose, but meh, thats what it is.
The weird synthetic reapers destroy organics so the organics don't advance enough to be destroyed by synthetics.
hows that for circular logic

Again, they do send something through the mass relays..its called the reapers. And ya, thats what they are doing...killing and/or indoctrinating all organic life in the galaxy that is above caveman technology. Liquifying them, then making those races into reapers themselves for posterity or some such.

Must be in part 3, as I said dont have all the details of the story.

Sorry for the spoilers then. Ya, they nerf advanced species..targeted destruction

If they are just a program then they must of had a programmer. And if every 50k years they do the same thing then whoever programmed them must of did it for a reason. I do not see them just chilling in space then every once in a while coming around because there bored of bio-life and deciding to wipe them out like clockwork every 50k years. If there under there own power then they would have wiped clean that programing and who knows maybe everywere already there would only be geth style life or basically only machines around.

So if they do a part 4, then that is just another question need be answered.

Already answered. ya, they do ultimately just chill in deep space, waiting for the alarm to ring and do their elimination thing. every 50k years, cake is done, go harvest, ding.
There is no free will either. Reapers are semi-alive, but focused.

And the other synthetics get absorbed also (actually why the geth are semi-evil. They are basically worshipping the reapers as their god and have for the most part become indoctrinated. Some have broken away (you will find in ME2 late game), but most are ultimately reaper tools now..and will be removed once the reapers are done.

The whole point of the reapers is actually because of the geth lesson...synthetics will destroy organics, therefore reapers preserve organics (by turning them synthetic)

Originally posted by GambitVII
reply to post by galadofwarthethird

 

You bring a lot of good points to the table, and it's sad that ,many 'fans' are willing to accept it considering that rejecting it would actually help the Mass Effect series. (it helps the writers know not to make weak plots that try to be deep)

I am one of them thar fans
And I don't accept it as an end..hense why its indoctrination..that is truely the only sensible conclusion..
Because its soo screwed up and falls short of what was promised that it simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever, period.
Unless Shep is indoctrinated...in which case, suddenly it all makes total sense..
But
It also means the devs lied and there is no tidy ending of the trilogy...rather, it is preparing for yet another game (which I am happy enough with, but am bugged by the deception...still, will end up buying ME4).

I wouldn't go any further than where you are at. There are many other games out there that do stellar work in providing substance. So unless your looking for a 'new' game with great graphics to kill some time, ME3 isn't that game for you. (and me as well)

Name some.
I am always interested in games of substance (just don't say anything zelda or kiddy like)

The biggest problem about ME3 is that it literally goes against everything that ME was SUPPOSE to be. It has full of expendable characters who only matter when you participate in THEIR missions. And in the end, you can literally go on without them and they do very little to shape and influence the FUNDAMENTAL plot. Which as far as I'm concerned, not good enough for a game that was meant to have characters that 'drive' the experiencing.

edit on 4-5-2012 by GambitVII because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-5-2012 by GambitVII because: (no reason given)

Keep in mind, Bioware ultimately puts out storybook games moreso than dynamic roleplaying simulators..although they do concentrate a lot on the roleplay experience.
But, they are ultimately talking about the story of Shepherd, and the other characters are just incidentals.

Sure, the other characters are expendable, if you deem them to be. For me, I can't tell you how many times I have gone back to try and figure out why one person died later on and recorrect my actions, etc...mostly because I got used to them. They are shepherds friends and he would do anything to ensure maximum potential for safety of his crew...No, Tali shouldn't die trying to shut a stuck door and catching a rocket to the head, etc.

Frankly, I wouldn't be totally offended if they put out a "official story" version to make the following mass effects easier to code for them. I think that would be wise.
Sure, I may have played a renegade and got everyone killed in the last game, but offically, I am a epic paragon whom saved everyone for the following game, and thats how it starts out. I can choose to either try to follow that path, or have fun going the opposite way. This character importing starts to remove the storytelling a little bit when you have too many variations.


The only plot holes I see so far (remember, I am sold on the indoctrination theory) which would hamper a ME4 is this:
1) Genophage..cured or not. This is a big deal actually. Either the krogan are reproducing en masse, or they aren't. This is exceptionally important towards the galactic harmony..It would be almost two completely different games based on a choice you made.
2) Geth/Quarian homeworld...another massive impact on a potential ME4. Are the quarians extinct? the geth? Are they living in peace together now? This is massively epic (and would also have reverberations throughout the galaxy on the idea of unshackled AIs.

Really thats about it...but those are biggies. An official story needs to come out and simply tell the fans to deal with it in order for simplicity. The krogans might be able to leave the picture (if the genophage is cured, chances are they would just blow themselves up to kingdom come anyhow and self anniliate given they aren't even really capable of their own space flight without help from salarians and others...making them marginal overall even if cured. I suspect nuclear winter x 1000 would eliminate that issue.
But the quarian/geth thing is a real pickle and would need an offical stance. That effects the universe.

Meh..I found it a good game. Much deeper than many other games out there. And I did care about most of the characters (hint, talk to everyone after each mission..they become more interesting in time)

You don't have to save every soldier on the battlefield, but if you know their names and histories, you want to.

reply to post by GambitVII


And ya, watched this video before, yes.

1) Indoctrinated dream. no plot hole, Happened only in Shep's mind. (Joker wouldn't leave)

2) Indoctrinated dream. no plot hole, Shep is thinking about friends and crap and how he saved everyone by his choice (of being indoctrinated)

3) Indoctrinated dream. no plot hole, Imagination of Shepherd

4) Indoctrinated dream. no plot hole, The relays are not broken...only in Shep's mind.
But, keep in mind, even if true, ships still have FTL drives..just would take longer to get around

5) AGREED!!! This was totally lazy of them. I totally thought this would be a strategy thing, or something...agreed 100% with him here.

6) Agreed. But, I suspect (if indeed its indoctrination), that what is being told at the end is...actually in the mind of a reaper.

7) I suspect there is going to be a happy ending, but they had to do the fake sad ending (ME3). Yes, I fully suspect that the story is not over...that ME4 will be Shep dusting himself off and going to kick some arse...

8) This is exactly the point. Indoctrination. Totally 100%. Shoot friends, see reapers as gods, etc...its a checklist of what exactly indoctrination is. Everything after that beam is a indoctrination delusion.

9) In a dream, you don't have many options. Shep killed off the illusive man, his guard is down now, and therefore his will to resist.

10) Indoctrinated dream. no plot hole,
But
The most critical part is the breath.
Look where he is at
(17:00)
He is at the rubble at the base of the reaper...not in space, not in a reaper destruction zone, it is cement..the street...right where he got hit by the beam.
The only way to get that ending is to reject the reapers (destroy) and feel strong.

Yes, it is a very sloppy ending of the game, and it simply cannot be the ending of the series, because..well, exactly as he says, nothing whatsoever makes sense.
unless you put in the indoctrination element...then, yes, it all makes perfect sense.

Crappy way to end the game mind you. frankly, ME3 felt like half a game (less people to help, no little minigame hacking or scanning of individual planets, etc)
Who knows, maybe the next ME title will be called Mass Effect 3 (Part 2)

Seems even this guy totally buys it

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to start a personal argument against you, I merely want people to be aware of what I see as far as Indoctrination goes.

My biggest problem about the 'indoctrination theory' is that it plays more of a role of 'covering up' a mistake rather than playing an influential role in driving the plot.

I'd have to say that it's a bit of a stretch. And even if it were true, it doesn't do justice to the point of the story. It's like changing the icing on the cake. The icing may give out a different taste and make you look at the cake a little more differently, but it's still the same old cake.

If by some chance that it were on purpose, it was definitely poorly executed. It's just a flawed attempted at being 'deep' considering the fact that it's only good for patching up plot holes. The application of deep concepts are suppose to enhance the story, not patch it up just so 'it would all make sense'.

Xenogears does a great job of doing that. The lore (background history and etc.) is an active participant in the circumstances that surround the player. In fact, the plot after the turning point is molded by the discoveries you come across about the history of the world. And how age old problems play an active part in the characters experience.

That's somewhat the case in Mass Effect. But the problem is that it's subtle to the point where the story has has to have been messed up to this degree in order for indoctrination have even been taken into consideration as an influential concept. In fact, BECAUSE the story has major flaws, it HAS to justify itself with something like the indoctrination theory just so it could all fall together.

And even with all the proof, it's biggest weakness is that it was more of a bench warmer than a team player. Would it not have been more epic i such a concept came to light and suddenly you would have to do things differently because of it? if it were a much more active participant, it would of given the player an opportunity to evaluate all of the things he has done and make a determine what kind of end would do justice to your actions.

Instead, the awareness of indoctrination does nothing Shephered and the fate of the galaxy. And it all ends in the same manner with a few tweaks here and there

In conclusion, I simply hate the fact that does nothing to add to the experience. It only attempts justify it's existence. You can replay the game, but regardless of what actions or decisions you make, knowledge of such a concept won't alter the events around you.

Perhaps if there is any question that needed to be asked, it would be this: how will it affect your characters decisions. If the knowledge of such a concept can drives the plot, then it has played it's role well. If knowing it does nothing to influence your characters decisions and actions, then it's poorly executed. Because it did nothing to push the plot forward.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The Indoctrination theory is possible. But still got holes. Anyway, teh best explanation woudl be if Bioware recicled the Reaper fight control's ending and decided to use it. This is why is so #ing weird. Anyway, i've been a fan of Mass Effect since the first game and i already beated it like 20 times. But man, after ME3 ending i'm just purchasing DA3 and nothing more.

Originally posted by GambitVII
DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to start a personal argument against you, I merely want people to be aware of what I see as far as Indoctrination goes.

My biggest problem about the 'indoctrination theory' is that it plays more of a role of 'covering up' a mistake rather than playing an influential role in driving the plot.

Depends on how they go about it.
I don't know what the extended cut ending will bring to the table...I am so damn confused now more than ever about bioware's response to this.

ok, here is the deal

As it stands now, indoctrination seems to be the best bet as to what it is...if you choose destruction ending, you clearly see Shep take a breath on cement.
Think about this for a moment..
The people at bioware put together a masterpiece extending 3 games. they are not grapefruit IQed individuals..
You are in space...(best seats in the house). Your armor is burned off.
You are at ground zero of the explosion
You fall to earth (after the vacuum of space)
You burn up into the atmosphere (flesh V burn up re-entry..guess which will win)
hitting the ground at thousands of miles per hour

and your alive...

Impossible. Shep is not superman as it was said..he is just a guy. He has some implants, but not a immortal god implant...he would be flat out dead..more than dead, he would literally be dust...if not from the ground zero explosion, then space would do it, and if not, then the re-entry would do it...its like surviving a nuclear bomb that went off right on top of your head...it is simply impossible (unless we find out Shep actually is God..short of that..nope).

I am droning on about this point because, out of all the issues, this is the one that you must view and accept as..yes, shep simply could -not- have been in space.

Which then means what...if he was -not- in space, then he never went up to begin with...which it all falls in line.

My speculation on what the extended ending will be.

I believe that Bioware did actually plan on the indoctrination theory actually. I think they wanted to make it subtle enough to where it would almost go unnoticed, but clear anyhow so that when they make ME4, people will be lijke...wow, I never even considered that!!!
But
They failed to make it subtle enough, and failed to make the ending convincing enough to be arguably..meh...I guess that could kind of happen.

So, the cat is out of the bag for them...they did a dodgy job at subtly, and now that pissed the community off enough to where they are now forced to go the oipposite way.

They will make the new extended ending to make it without a doubt...that you know he is indoctrinated...that there is a ME4 coming.

Some issues though:
Its too big now. The choices are too complex. They need a refresh of the storylines in order to get everything back to "normal" now and not have 500 different options for every instance of the game (wrex and the cured genophage, wreve and the not cured genophage, the dead quarians, the quarians living with the geth, the dead geth), etc etc..its a nightmare to continue the current storyline now and it must be solved with a span of maybe 30 years and some simple decisions by the developers..
So, no..I don't see ME4 starting with shep waking up and going to get harbinger. I see it as shep waking up, something driving out the reapers for now, and Shep retiring/having a kid that takes over.

Then some directed "what happened' narration (my thoughts, since the 'right" choice is for geth and quarians to live together, and the genophage to be cured, they will choose that...and easily integrated..the reaper attack united the surviving (geth/quarians) after it was all said and done..no, just the main military force died, not all of them...and if you didn't cure the genophage, then others did after you got KOed...easy enough.
The rest of your party is simply dead or long gone...died in the reaper attack, or some civil war that happened after, etc..might keep joker and edi alive though...as they ultimately cant die.

But ya, Shep was indoctrinated..there is no going back from that. the end scene proves this without a doubt..there really isn't any other option.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by GambitVII
DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to start a personal argument against you, I merely want people to be aware of what I see as far as Indoctrination goes.

My biggest problem about the 'indoctrination theory' is that it plays more of a role of 'covering up' a mistake rather than playing an influential role in driving the plot.

Depends on how they go about it.
I don't know what the extended cut ending will bring to the table...I am so damn confused now more than ever about bioware's response to this.

ok, here is the deal

As it stands now, indoctrination seems to be the best bet as to what it is...if you choose destruction ending, you clearly see Shep take a breath on cement.
Think about this for a moment..
The people at bioware put together a masterpiece extending 3 games. they are not grapefruit IQed individuals..
You are in space...(best seats in the house). Your armor is burned off.
You are at ground zero of the explosion
You fall to earth (after the vacuum of space)
You burn up into the atmosphere (flesh V burn up re-entry..guess which will win)
hitting the ground at thousands of miles per hour

and your alive...

Impossible. Shep is not superman as it was said..he is just a guy. He has some implants, but not a immortal god implant...he would be flat out dead..more than dead, he would literally be dust...if not from the ground zero explosion, then space would do it, and if not, then the re-entry would do it...its like surviving a nuclear bomb that went off right on top of your head...it is simply impossible (unless we find out Shep actually is God..short of that..nope).

I am droning on about this point because, out of all the issues, this is the one that you must view and accept as..yes, shep simply could -not- have been in space.

Which then means what...if he was -not- in space, then he never went up to begin with...which it all falls in line.

My speculation on what the extended ending will be.

I believe that Bioware did actually plan on the indoctrination theory actually. I think they wanted to make it subtle enough to where it would almost go unnoticed, but clear anyhow so that when they make ME4, people will be lijke...wow, I never even considered that!!!
But
They failed to make it subtle enough, and failed to make the ending convincing enough to be arguably..meh...I guess that could kind of happen.

So, the cat is out of the bag for them...they did a dodgy job at subtly, and now that pissed the community off enough to where they are now forced to go the oipposite way.

They will make the new extended ending to make it without a doubt...that you know he is indoctrinated...that there is a ME4 coming.

Some issues though:
Its too big now. The choices are too complex. They need a refresh of the storylines in order to get everything back to "normal" now and not have 500 different options for every instance of the game (wrex and the cured genophage, wreve and the not cured genophage, the dead quarians, the quarians living with the geth, the dead geth), etc etc..its a nightmare to continue the current storyline now and it must be solved with a span of maybe 30 years and some simple decisions by the developers..
So, no..I don't see ME4 starting with shep waking up and going to get harbinger. I see it as shep waking up, something driving out the reapers for now, and Shep retiring/having a kid that takes over.

Then some directed "what happened' narration (my thoughts, since the 'right" choice is for geth and quarians to live together, and the genophage to be cured, they will choose that...and easily integrated..the reaper attack united the surviving (geth/quarians) after it was all said and done..no, just the main military force died, not all of them...and if you didn't cure the genophage, then others did after you got KOed...easy enough.
The rest of your party is simply dead or long gone...died in the reaper attack, or some civil war that happened after, etc..might keep joker and edi alive though...as they ultimately cant die.

But ya, Shep was indoctrinated..there is no going back from that. the end scene proves this without a doubt..there really isn't any other option.

edit on 7-5-2012 by SaturnFX because: (no reason given)

And plus in the destroy ending he survives. Certainly indoctrinated, which means it was a damn good ending.

reply to post by SaturnFX


If you recall my previous reply, I stated in there that regardless of whether it is fact or not the whole theory is only good at patching 'the problem up' and doesn't do enough to add value to the experience. Now be sure to take note that I'm making this statement under the impression that the theory is indeed fact.

to help clarify my issue, i will state that my problem is more about the way the executed indoctrination. (so given that it is fact, the problem that its poorly executed and that it fails to add on to the stories value and dynamics)

Yes, i understand how it can work. But I also understand why it's one of the worst ways a writer can choose to execute such an intricate concept. (this is regardless of whether we like it or not)

I also made a suggestion as to how it would of been better implemented in my previous reply. There is no reason why a big budget game should sacrifice so much potential in an attempt to be deep. particularly when lower budget developers do so much more substance with far less of a budget. I can name a few titles if need be.

reply to post by Davian


So... because he is indoctrinated the story is well told?
I fail to see how the mechanics of story telling apply to that conclusion. Or rather, I manged to succeed in understanding how it simply doesn't work that way. If I made a statement like that in my college essays I'd get a phat F.

A person can like something, but liking something doesn't make something good.
And neither should something good be entitled to have favor.

reply to post by GambitVII


Well, here is how I see it
How does it add value I guess is the main question?

Arguably it doesn't if you had anticipated this to be the final end of the ME series...and it was lining up to be just that.
However, if you seen this as just the game before ME4, then you see it differently. I didn't know it was a trilogy, therefore I suspected it would be milked until they jumped the shark (final fantasy).

Sheps last moves (lets assume for a second indoctrination is indeed the fact here and the devs are just being mysterious about it) is choice, the same it has been since the beginning
and the choice is to become a husk, or break from the indoctrination and leave it on a epic cliffhanger.

Now, for it to continue in ME4, one of two things needs to happen
Either it somehow forces you to choose the destruction/wake up ending (unlikely), or they somehow catch you as your slowly becoming turned on the ground (for anything outside of destruction). This seems likely...for those whom chose to destroy, its simply catching up with him and giving him some medical treatment.

Then what? Well, I know of several directions that the story needs to go in, but my issue is how do they carry on with such a massive cluster---k of options. This is the difficult part. A gamer company would want to simply destroy all the randomness and avenues somehow and start fresh with new characters, but they can't. they got themselves into a pickle with the ending.

What it comes down to is indeed quality. the only quality ending that is established is indoctrination...anything short of that and it is the most absurd pile of nonsense ever created and its like some halfwit took over the last 10 minute direction of the whole series.

Also, the ending as it stands now (lets say no indoctrination, the ending is as it is, and is totally stupid) effectively closes the franchise all together, the end, stick a fork in it, its done.
And they won't do that..its a goose thats laying golden eggs for them.

Choice...either an incredibly thoughtless and absurdly stupid ending to not only the game, but the franchise, or a stunningly brilliant (if subtle) ending of this game that opens up tons of options for them, and will be legendary for games on how to mind---- the audience.

I don't believe the folks at bioware had a collective brainfart on the ending. I don't think EA wants to stop the franchise, therefore, logically it must be indoctrination, and the quality behind the indoc theory serves to enhance the whole franchise. Its all or nothing for them now...

Reverse the question to yourself
how does the ending as it sits right now give any quality to the 3 games? what about it adds anything, or even remotely resembles anything identifiable about what we have built up over the years? nothing..its a detour towards everything the franchise stood for, it introduced magical beings, deity children, and a shepherd that didn't even slightly question the supposed authority of a synthetic explaining why his logic is flawed...it is almost insulting..its like a competitor got ahold of the end and changed it to make sure it sucked and was totally unlike anything else beforehand.

You will find their is only one path that bioware can take that ensures quality, franchise survivability, and a satisfying "end" (continuation). If the upcoming extended ending doesn't cement this indoctrination thing, but instead tries to counter it, then its time to remove bioware from being a legendary company of pure talent into a bunch of stooges that EA has...well..indoctrinated. heh

Mass Effect is Biowares flagship...they hang their entire reputation on it...where it goes, in the fans eyes, is exactly where it goes quite literally.

Originally posted by GambitVII
reply to post by Davian

 

So... because he is indoctrinated the story is well told?

In a word,
yes.

Because of all the logistics involved as I stated. Its either fantastic, or fantastic garbage. indoctrination = fantastic, anything short = garbage.
Stop splitting hairs and consider the two roads bioware has laid out...space magic or indoctrination. nonsense plot craters, or indoctrination. superman shepherd surviving ultimately a naked 5000 mile skydiving explosion, or indoctrination
Short of that, you can come up with other things, such as a brick hit his head and he quite literally is dreaming all this, but thats all the same...point is, its a delusion, a dream, not really happening...because if it did happen, then they jumped like 20 sharks.

If he is indoctrinated, is the ending good?
answer, yes.

(nothing is more fun than debating a video game..much better than debating politics)

reply to post by SaturnFX

Reverse the question to yourself
how does the ending as it sits right now give any quality to the 3 games? what about it adds anything, or even remotely resembles anything identifiable about what we have built up over the years? nothing..its a detour towards everything the franchise stood for, it introduced magical beings, deity children, and a shepherd that didn't even slightly question the supposed authority of a synthetic explaining why his logic is flawed...it is almost insulting..its like a competitor got ahold of the end and changed it to make sure it sucked and was totally unlike anything else beforehand.

You can reverse the question if you like, but if you read your own paragraph then you'd understand why the indoctrination theory is a problem: Its because ME3 IS THE problem.

From what i've gathered you have yet to understand anything that I have sated despite having repeating myself over and over with clarity.

It's a decent theory for what it's worth, but I'll state again that if its what the developers intented then they purposely sold a 'garbage' game just so they can be pretend to be 'deep' and hook people in for a fourth title. That's heresy and completely unethical given the amount of time and money they had to make ME3 a masterpiece.

And if you want more specifics PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND my previous 2 reply's.

I understand you like the game, but there are bigger problems than indoctrination theory that developers & publishers are causing yet their market continues to reward them.

I hope you know that there are developers out there who put their heart and soul in their work and the mainstream audience would rather not give them a try go because of their fandom toward triple A titles. The least companies like Bioware can do is make a game that has half as much substance as those titles, but they can't even do that because they've compromised themselves believing they have to change things to appeal to a mass audience.

I fail to see how the indoctrination theory justifies a crappy game. But you said it yourself, the only good thing its done is justify an opening for the next title. Which IMHO, is a cheap tactic that triple A companies like Capcom and now Bioware continue to exploit.

reply to post by GambitVII


The game itself was good..great even.
One issue someone would have is if they didn't play at least ME2, they would feel it wasn't that great, because they didn't spend much time explaining why you care about the characters (you did that in 2 with loyalty missions). So, someone whom just jumped in and played 3, sure..they would think its a "meh" game...but someone whom played all 3, or at the very least, 2 before 3 already has the roleplay backdrop of friendship gaining to start running.

The combat was tighter, far more difficult in some areas, but more robust and chaotic...still, for a story game, it is a good engine. I am disappointed however in not being able to carry heavy weapons (I want to drop a nuke on a merc...overkill my butt!). But the overall combat quality is equal or even improved a bit

ME2 is my favorite game of the series mind you...this game falls short in glory from that title..but that is because of how epic and intricate 2 was.

and dammit, I liked the scanner and hack minigames. they clearly "dumbed things down" a lot in 3, some thought it was good though, many hated the little minigames...I found them slightly annoying, but they gave flavor to the experience, like lockpicking in skyrim/oblivion. So there, I do wish there was an option (turn annoyance on/off) or solve it with a in-game solution (buy an upgrade to auto-scan systems verses just magically install it)

The quest mapping sucks...really really bad. that needs a rewrite and fire whomever came up with the obscure crap method there.

just trying to figure out what part you find to be a crap game...overall it was awesome, its a easy 95% if you remove the last 10 minutes..
The characters were true to their established nature, the quests were really big in nature (genocide is something you can't take lightly)
And as a fan, I was very pleased at how 3 was rolling out.

A few things I would have done to make it better though
When you met up with old friends in 2 for the first time, they did some slightly cheesy happy nostalgic music...things like that actually really made the game. For some reason, they took that out. bad decision. audio draw should not be underestimated and gives equal feeling as visual. I have no clue why that was removed, nor have I seen it addressed in any of the Q/A's.

As far as the ending goes (here we go again). You keep saying they ultimately sold out in order to keep expanding...I am saying, yes, maybe, if they did the ending "right". indoctrination is the only saving grace for them, and it actually is a deep ending.

But here is the issue

Bioware is being quite clear that this is not the case...thing is, this really may be just a crappy ending. It appears that the indoctrination thing is actually not the real ending, and they just made an endless series of goofs...and are sticking to their guns.

Check that out.
Basically, Bioware is saying..ok, we will make a few more cinimatics to overall crush this indoc theory, because we aren't that creative.

So there...chances are nothing you have to worry about...it will be a stupid ending full of plot holes, joker running to another star system for a laugh, shepherd unquestioningly believing everything a little starchild boy says, reaper magic now giving force powers to indoctrinated people (how did Anderson get shot? oh, right...illusive man's magical force powers of indoctrination made shepherd do it, even though that has never, ever happened before), etc..
you complain about a lack of depth and decent path with the Indoc ending, well no worries I guess, now its a zero depth and 100% bullcrap somehow star wars mixed in ending as given of magical blue/red/green goo shooting everywhere...bioware agrees with you, indoctrination is so incredibly intelligent and a fantastic explanation, that they can't use it...rather, its all about just blowing something up, screw the collected depth

As I said, the game itself was fantastic, and well played out, except the last 10 minutes...is there anything specific you didn't like about it (before the ending)? You might have simply not liked the franchise and not a fan..fair enough, but why even in here commenting on the game if you didn't like the premise to begin with?

Like going into a medieval game and saying the game sucked because you don't like swords or something...so, you have to be specific about something...