A toast, to the end of veganism and vegetarianism

Originally posted by Char-Lee

Originally posted by UnivoxSuperfuzz
reply to post by Pegasus2000

 

I don't see why you can't find another species to get obsessed with... Cows are pretty useless animals outside of dairy cows.

Actually having lived next to fields of cows, I can say they are sweet and cute animals and I love them as much as dogs and cats. natural numbers of the animals and their becoming more like the original wild creatures they came from would be good, like the wild Goats and Pigs and sheep.

But to add to your other message of meat having hormones and crap in it, there is also the filth issue. With lab grown meat there would be no poo. No Cow, pig, chicken stinking filth that is all over the meat process and fowls the waters and environment. Thus no more ecoli risk and something people who have not processed pigs, cows and fish do not see hug and small worms!
My husband cooks in a restaurant and processes the fish (hared he is vegetarian) he pulls the worms out when he sees them, the rest are hidden by the cooking. Some worm eggs do survive cooking and maybe transferred to humans. it is soooo disgusting!

Grass fed pastured cows don't get ecoli it's only grain fed cows raised in their own feces on feed lots that get it because grain is not their natural food and makes them more susceptible to disease etc. Not to mention all the GMO corn vaccines and hormones they are fed... And restaurant food is often the worst since it is bought in bulk and is not organic etc.

Most meat-eaters think that being a vegetarian or even a vegan is terribly expensive and difficult to keep up, this is not so.
My son and I are vegetarians and my partner is a vegan and we will not start consuming, let alone buying artificial meat anytime soon, we do NOT do GMO foods, the milk, cheese and eggs mostly consumed by our son (7) are strictly organic, as is most of the other food in our home.
I do NOT buy drinks or foods containing sugar, sweeteners, glucose fructose syrup, additives or any other stuff I have difficulties pronouncing at first read, I also can successfully replicate things like veggie-burgers, soy-meat balls in my kitchen without ever buying processed foods. Our weekly grocery bill is approximately 100GBP

reply to post by hawkiye

Wow maybe you should try some research first before you embarrass yourself further

No medical study that has been able to survive a critique of the methods has indicated health risks associated with GMOs.

Stupid is as stupid does. Oh and please do show us the risks and dangers of organic gardening... Sigh!

www.cgfi.org...

Organic food is more dangerous than conventionally grown produce because organic farmers use animal manure as the major source of fertilizer for their food crops. Animal manure is the biggest reservoir of these nasty bacteria that are afflicting and killing so many people.

Organic farmers compound the contamination problem through their reluctance to use antimicrobial preservatives, chemical washes, pasteurization, or even chlorinated water to rid their products of dangerous bacteria. One organic grower summed up the community’s attitude as follows: “Pasteurization has only been around a hundred years or so; what do they think people did before that?”

And this is because many in the "organic" crowd live in stark ignorance to the facts of life.

www.finegardening.com...

Furthermore, raw manure can have an offensive odor, attract flies, and be difficult to transport. Worst of all, it contains pathogens that might make you sick and weed seeds that will spread to your garden.

www.growveg.com...

Gardening is like any other process - filled with risk analysis and management. A "pure organic" garden or a "pure factory" garden are each going to have considerable risks that must be managed. Personally, I think an exclusive outlook is just stupid - and adoption of sensible strategies from both camps are good ways to minimize the risks associated with each (companion planting, border-planting, etc can all reduce the necessity for the use of pesticides).

Perhaps you should, you know... learn a thing or two about what you are talking about. Like gardening.

The morning star chik-n- nuggets are actually pretty darn good!
i usually bake them in the oven, but have also fried them in peanut oil for
guests. The buffalo hot nuggets are darn good as well. Also the griller
burgers by morning star are pretty tasty as well. If your trying to not eat meat
but like burgers and nuggets, you just may be surprised at how yummy they are.
Just my 2 cents

reply to post by hawkiye

Grass fed pastured cows don't get ecoli it's only grain fed cows

Not necessarily. Farmers are often forced to fertilize their pastures to promote growth that can sustain higher numbers of cattle on the same area of land.

You are basically looking at an unsustainable farming practice.

raised in their own feces

Their stables are cleaned as they rotate out to be milked, and their hooves are trimmed and cared for accordingly.

This is one of the few times I'd say this... but you would be better served to watch a bit more TV. You might find the show: "Dirty Jobs" of interest.

You're e-search seems to be very narrow and self-fulfilling (IE - you only research things you want to and therefor see what you want to).

on feed lots that get it because grain is not their natural food and makes them more susceptible to disease etc.

There are a number of factors involved - but the primary issue with cattle in close proximity is the same problem you have with people in close proximity. The Navy and other branches of the Military have a considerable focus on vaccinations and medical pre-screening to prevent the spread of diseases through such closely spaced and interacting groups of people.

Not to mention all the GMO corn vaccines and hormones they are fed

The GMO corn poses no statistically significant health risks (existing commercial varieties).

However, I do empathize with your dislike of hormone therapies. While I am not convinced it is a health concern - I think it more than likely degrades the quality of product (be it meat, milk, or whatever).

And restaurant food is often the worst since it is bought in bulk and is not organic etc.

Depends upon the restaurant. We got all of our meats from the same supply chains that fed grocery stores... or, when our employer was durka-dur about things - from the grocery store.

Meat being bought in bulk is not a problem. It must be produced in bulk and shipped in bulk and sold in bulk.

In fact - the greater the volume, the less likely you are to encounter food-borne illness. The less time the food has to spend between the slaughter-house and the grill/fryer/etc, the better (as far as health is concerned).

The meat, itself, is no different than what you would pick up in the store under the "organic" label.

Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Wow maybe you should try some research first before you embarrass yourself further

No medical study that has been able to survive a critique of the methods has indicated health risks associated with GMOs.

Stupid is as stupid does. Oh and please do show us the risks and dangers of organic gardening... Sigh!

www.cgfi.org...

Organic food is more dangerous than conventionally grown produce because organic farmers use animal manure as the major source of fertilizer for their food crops. Animal manure is the biggest reservoir of these nasty bacteria that are afflicting and killing so many people.

Organic farmers compound the contamination problem through their reluctance to use antimicrobial preservatives, chemical washes, pasteurization, or even chlorinated water to rid their products of dangerous bacteria. One organic grower summed up the community’s attitude as follows: “Pasteurization has only been around a hundred years or so; what do they think people did before that?”

And this is because many in the "organic" crowd live in stark ignorance to the facts of life.

www.finegardening.com...

Furthermore, raw manure can have an offensive odor, attract flies, and be difficult to transport. Worst of all, it contains pathogens that might make you sick and weed seeds that will spread to your garden.

www.growveg.com...

Gardening is like any other process - filled with risk analysis and management. A "pure organic" garden or a "pure factory" garden are each going to have considerable risks that must be managed. Personally, I think an exclusive outlook is just stupid - and adoption of sensible strategies from both camps are good ways to minimize the risks associated with each (companion planting, border-planting, etc can all reduce the necessity for the use of pesticides).

Perhaps you should, you know... learn a thing or two about what you are talking about. Like gardening.

Wow did you seriously post this tripe. LOL!

Organic farmers do not use raw animal manure if they use it at all, they use composted manure or other composted organic matter which kills all pathogens and vermaculture etc. Second the kind of manure that would carry the dangerous pathogens is from factory farms and feed lots not organic farms genius. And what the hell is the CGFI a propagandat blog for the Monsanto and the FDA? I never heard of it before...Sigh.

Also antimicrobial preservatives, chemical washes, pasteurization, and even chlorinated water are some of the major factors in the rise of disease, obesity, and decline in general health.

As for GMOS I see you conveniently ignored the ATS thread I posted with references proving GMO's are harmful to humans and animals. Perhaps you could go refute the many cites posted there instead of pathetically proclaiming victory with no evidence.

As for organic gardening I think I know a thing or two about it ...



A small corner of my organic garden 100% heirloom no pesticides no petroleum fertilizers etc.

PS and laughing out loud at the same meat you buy in bulk is the same as organic. Watch "Food Inc." It is always possibly that meat in a store labeled organic is not because of corrupt business practice but is not always the case as you claim. However which is why i generally do not buy meat from the store I buy it from organic farms or raise it myself where I know how it was raised what it was fed and how it was killed.

You should quit repeating media/gov/bigcorp rhetoric and try some real world experience. I eat probably 95% organic I don't get sick and feel much better then hen I didn't. I raise my own food or buy from local farmers and or local small markets that support them. I eat raw cheese and drink raw milk etc. Raw milk is one of the healthiest things you can drink. So you can stop trying to justify the poisoning of America the ruining of our farmlands etc etc by factory farming and genetic engineering.

You don'e have to be a vegan/vegetarian to help stop the inhumane treatment of cattle just stop supporting factory farming and eat organic.

Originally posted by ratpunk

Originally posted by pteridine

Originally posted by hawkiye
Stupid is as stupid does. Oh and please do show us the risks and dangers of organic gardening... Sigh!

Organic gardening is a fine hobby but will not feed the world. The dangers are slight for the amateur. Most would be during attempts to store the crops and have to do with various bacteria and fungi. Complete failure of the backyard garden by infestation or disease would not seriously impact the individual other than to require an alternate source of food. It is less dangerous to eat non-organic than to not eat at all.
The use of synthetic ammonia as a fertilizer is a requirement or the world would only be able to support about 4 billion people and most would be hungry, at that. Eliminating pesticides would result in lower yields, yet, of most crops. I expect that in such an environment, a great deal of effort would be expended in protecting the crops from hungry creatures of all kinds, including humans.
To state that "organic" is the only way to go is to say that depopulation is a necessity. Will you volunteer to be the first to go?

This statement is not only wrong but makes my Native American ancestors laugh. We have been doing this for thousands of years. Ps... Technology has evolved!

Vertical gardening and aquaculture has certainly evolved but your native American ancestors haven't been doing this for thousands of years. Note the requirement for heaters and pumps in a green house. Note also that fish are not plants, although vegans would just not eat them. Finally, note the requirement for water. Fresh, clean water will be in short supply. I predict that, in the future, water from the east and midwest will not feed the Mississippi but will be piped to reservoirs in drier areas where it can supplement existing supplies. The river systems of the US may well all end up like the Colorado and be dry before they get to the ocean.
As to your laughing native American ancestors, please do not imply some mystical bond with mother earth or suggest altruistic environmental purity. These are ascribed characteristics recently claimed without any real substance. The plains tribes would regularly stampede buffalo herds off of cliffs and then take the hides and whatever meat they could use quickly while the rest was left to rot. There was no great plan to spare the environment; there was only a plan to survive and feed the tribe with minimal effort under harsh living conditions.

Originally posted by pteridine

Originally posted by ratpunk

Originally posted by pteridine

Originally posted by hawkiye
Stupid is as stupid does. Oh and please do show us the risks and dangers of organic gardening... Sigh!

Organic gardening is a fine hobby but will not feed the world. The dangers are slight for the amateur. Most would be during attempts to store the crops and have to do with various bacteria and fungi. Complete failure of the backyard garden by infestation or disease would not seriously impact the individual other than to require an alternate source of food. It is less dangerous to eat non-organic than to not eat at all.
The use of synthetic ammonia as a fertilizer is a requirement or the world would only be able to support about 4 billion people and most would be hungry, at that. Eliminating pesticides would result in lower yields, yet, of most crops. I expect that in such an environment, a great deal of effort would be expended in protecting the crops from hungry creatures of all kinds, including humans.
To state that "organic" is the only way to go is to say that depopulation is a necessity. Will you volunteer to be the first to go?

This statement is not only wrong but makes my Native American ancestors laugh. We have been doing this for thousands of years. Ps... Technology has evolved!

Vertical gardening and aquaculture has certainly evolved but your native American ancestors haven't been doing this for thousands of years. Note the requirement for heaters and pumps in a green house. Note also that fish are not plants, although vegans would just not eat them. Finally, note the requirement for water. Fresh, clean water will be in short supply. I predict that, in the future, water from the east and midwest will not feed the Mississippi but will be piped to reservoirs in drier areas where it can supplement existing supplies. The river systems of the US may well all end up like the Colorado and be dry before they get to the ocean.
As to your laughing native American ancestors, please do not imply some mystical bond with mother earth or suggest altruistic environmental purity. These are ascribed characteristics recently claimed without any real substance. The plains tribes would regularly stampede buffalo herds off of cliffs and then take the hides and whatever meat they could use quickly while the rest was left to rot. There was no great plan to spare the environment; there was only a plan to survive and feed the tribe with minimal effort under harsh living conditions.

So your assuming no Native Americans had farms? As well as bugs and disease did not exist as well? I guess we were just primitive people with no language and grunted. Well you are wrong on all levels. In fact It is quite simple process we developed a long time ago. It is as simple as growing your crops with harmony with Mother Earth. Or a simple Sun Flower garden placed correctly. Maybe you should research how we grew food or have someone teach you. Like we taught the Pilgrims that came here... Oh and if more people did bond with Mother Earth we would live more peaceful..JS

Please note that the gardens are being feed by the fish by there waste. Hence you would not need fertilizer. You have a living supply.

Originally posted by ratpunk
Please note that the gardens are being feed by the fish by there waste. Hence you would not need fertilizer. You have a living supply.

You only need so much fertilizer for a garden, especially if it is home-based. Besides, their crops are more reliant on industrial machinery than personal maintenance.

reply to post by ratpunk


Native Americans used natural farms. Why do you think they wandered so far from home to gather food?

There were nomad tribes who traveled with their "natural" herds, so as to keep in contact with their food source. They very rarely domesticated animals. Chickens and dogs were the largest animals they possessed, unless some brave soul captured a donkey or something.

Originally posted by ratpunk
So your assuming no Native Americans had farms? As well as bugs and disease did not exist as well? I guess we were just primitive people with no language and grunted. Well you are wrong on all levels. In fact It is quite simple process we developed a long time ago. It is as simple as growing your crops with harmony with Mother Earth. Or a simple Sun Flower garden placed correctly. Maybe you should research how we grew food or have someone teach you. Like we taught the Pilgrims that came here... Oh and if more people did bond with Mother Earth we would live more peaceful..JS

Actually, I am not assuming that at all. The Adena farmed in North America and many Central and South American peoples farmed. In fact, those cultures were more advanced than the North American tribes in many ways. Growing crops "in harmony with Mother Earth" is a necessary thing or they wouldn't grow. The Central and South Americans modified "Mother Earth" quite a bit to farm. In the Amazon basin, large areas of "Terra Preta" [Dark Earth] were discovered. This is arguably the most fertile soil man has ever made and it was "made" by adding large amounts of charcoal to the soil. "Mother Earth" can be improved to a certain point.

The "bonding with Mother Earth" concept for peaceful living brings up a problem with your position. Given that the tribes of the Americas were often at war wth one another, either they didn't bond "with Mother Earth" or "bonding with Mother Earth" doesn't do what is claimed.

It is my opinion that the native peoples [those that arrived more than 10,000 years ago] were pragmatic and did what they had to do to survive. If that meant setting a few thousand acres of prarie on fire or enslaving or cannibalizing enemies, they did it.

Originally posted by abeverage
But...Bacon has magical powers!

You make every meat eater here look bad.

Cute line, though.

Native Americans were farmers. Not nomads. Our culture is a great one. Cannibalism... really? Anywho here is some help. Look into how ecology and farmers evolved from studying the Native Americans.
ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov...

Originally posted by ratpunk
Native Americans were farmers. Not nomads. Our culture is a great one. Cannibalism... really? Anywho here is some help. Look into how ecology and farmers evolved from studying the Native Americans.
ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov...

Thanks for the link. Sustainable agriculture is still problematic for many. Slash and burn only works for a few years and then more slashing and burning is needed. Even the Mayas eventually depleted the earth although water was a big problem, also. Wars solved both problems.

Yes cannibalism, really. Some ritual and some practical. It was not uncommon as a ritual where hearts and other parts of warriors would be eaten. More recently, the Japanese killed and ate American captives at Ichi Jima [and other places] during WW2 as a ritual. This was part of the contrived Bushido code that they whipped up to convince each other that they had a warrior tradition. The US countered by roasting several hundred thousand Japanese but never ate them. Wars are tough on everybody.
Slavery was also common among many tribes but it was hardly a new concept. All civilizations had slaves, even retrograde civilizations. The Vikings were the biggest slavers in Europe in the 800's, selling as far away as Constantinople, and in the 1600's, tribes in Africa sold their captives to slavers for the Americas. The vaunted Icelandic Althing was underpinned by slaves. Africans enslaved other Africans and sold them and this still goes on. Some history avoids these embarrassing points so as to paint a picture suited to those with an agenda.

You still haven't clarified your position on the Mother Earth claim. Either the native Americans were not "one with Mother Earth" or being "one with Mother Earth" doesn't do anything for living peacably with one another.

Your comments were on Native Americans not other cultures. Mohawks were sent out to "take care of problems". Kind of like the USMC or special forces do today. Benjamin Franklin can tell you what he saw as far as to understand their government and ways. But the culture was never hack and slash. The water was provided by the great lakes that we enjoy even today. Major cities now are on places they developed and towns. In fact most of the names of them come from Native Americans. As far as Mother Earth it is Ecology. en.wikipedia.org... kind of like Avatar if your a movie buff.

Lots of cultures depended on Organic farming because they had no pesticides and chemicals back then. That is the whole basis on this. Thousands of years of farming went on without it. We now have great technology to continue this to feed people healthy food without massive chemicals being poured into our food supply and the water tablets.

Originally posted by ratpunk

Originally posted by Starchild23
Just because I don't understand why humans would choose to defy their nature and abstain from the meat they were physically designed to consume, I am going to join this toast.

You can consume any thing you want. Does not mean it is good for you in the long run.

Rule of thumb...Everything in Moderation is good (Food, Sex, Money, Alcohol, Tobacco, Power etc etc)

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by ratpunk

Originally posted by Starchild23
Just because I don't understand why humans would choose to defy their nature and abstain from the meat they were physically designed to consume, I am going to join this toast.

You can consume any thing you want. Does not mean it is good for you in the long run.

Rule of thumb...Everything in Moderation is good (Food, Sex, Money, Alcohol, Tobacco, Power etc etc)

edit on 27-3-2012 by hp1229 because: (no reason given)

Moderation is the key to everything except happiness. And if you don't have enough of it (by enough, I mean to be physically healthy), you didn't stick to the rule.

reply to post by Starchild23

WARNING FILTHY LANGUAGE ABOUT FILTHY ANIMALS THAT TASTE GOOD!

reply to post by abeverage


If pigs are filthy, I would really hate to think what humans are...