Sin all you want and send the bills to Jesus.

Christians believe that accepting Jesus died for mankinds sins automatically redeems one of their sins...they also believe that one who does not accept that Jesus died for his sins, still remains under the burden of his sins and will end up in hell.

So, the christian program for being saved can be summarized as

[Does person accept Jesus died for his sins?]
If "YES" = saved
If "NO" = condemned


Going by this, technically, a man can plan to live a life of sin and later accept Jesus died for his sins. This way he can lie, steal, fornicate, commit adultery, wrongfully amass wealth, ruin lives, etc....and then, plan to sincerely accept Jesus died for his sins and be saved from the punishment of hellfire.

Even after this, if he commits another murder, or another act of adultery or another theft...all he has to do is accept that he is a sinner and that Jesus died for his sins. Going by the christian salvation plan, this evil man has been given the license to sin over and over again and still be granted a get-out-of-hell ticket....by simply accepting that Jesus died for his sins.

Basically, he can sin all he wants and send the bills to Jesus. There's no catch, right?

This belief system with regard to accepting Jesus' death for being redeemed is severely flawed...because it not only makes a scapegoat out of Jesus, but also contradicts several teachings in the bible.

-That God makes a distinction between good and evil people.
-That forgiveness comes to a person who sincerely repents and seeks forgiveness, from God directly.
-That a person cannot die for the sins of another.... let alone God becoming that man to die for the sins of all mankind.
(to name just a few)

Such a belief system is mechanical and robotic, and turns God into a computer program that coldly responds to a mans personal "YES" or "NO" choice. Christianity places the key to "salvation" on the sinner simply making that YES/NO choice.
It does away the need for one to repent or contemplate their sinful actions.
It denies the truth that God knows the heart and mind of a person and saves them basis His understanding of the person, regardless his belief system.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



Excellent post. I agree whole heartedly. Jesus did not come to start a religion, nor did he come to save us by an act of self sacrifice. He came to tell and show by example how we can save ourselves.

Does it really make sense that, according to organised religion, Jesus died for our sins, thus giving us salvation. This would mean we now have no further need for restraint or self control in any way. We can be totally reckless and irresponsible, even criminal in our dealing with ourselves and others, because we have already been forgiven. There is absolutly no need to do any work on ourselves to eliminate our faults.

If this was the case, why is the bible full of commandments and rules and advice on living life and the rewards for doing this and the punishments for not doing it. Why is all this necessary if salvation has already been acheived.

Jesus showed the way, but we, each and every one of us, must get there by our own efforts.

The church (meaning the religion of Christianity) lasted in its pure form (true teachings) for a mere few hundred years. It was then usurped by kings and popes alike for their own selfish ends. The dogma was created to place the Pope between the people and God, teaching that only the Church had the true teachings.
It must be remembered that in those early days the only bibles were held by the church authorities and very few people could read anyway. The population was told what to beleive and had little choice in the matter.

The power this gave the Church is still in evidence today.

Also in evidence today is the result of a world that refuses to take responsibility for its actions. This is a direct result of the false teachings of a false religion foisted upon the world in order to keep itself in power.

The truth is there for those who search diligently. If you expect to find it in organised religion, expect to shovel a lot of dirt before you find gold.

Well not exactly, in Christianity there is Original Sin which all humans inherited from the fall of Adam and Eve.

It is from this that Christians gain salvation.

Other sins can be forgiven, but generally a change in lifestyle is required that attempts to avoid sin.

Exactly what is a sin and a lifestyle is not clear, since there are many Christian sects and churches.

Divorce and remarriage are singled out by Jesus as adultery, so such couples could be said to live in perpetual sin, however such verses are hardly followed today, and nowadays "sin" is often reserved exclusively for the gay minority.

Ultimately I think Jesus calls us to be good, moral and kind, and not to judge.
There's also a verse somewhere that says all sins can be forgiven, as long as they are not greater than that of the Pharisees, which is rather unclear.
Then there's a sin against the Holy Spirit, which is also unclear and non-literal in translation.

So maybe we must also trust in God like the Muslims because salvation is unsure, and we don't know everything from these scriptures, although there are many things we can and do know that are pretty clear.

What is concerning in parallel streams of fundamentalism is that dying for one's faith in warfare against other beliefs is a "martyr's way to heaven".
That must be the most blatant manipulation of humanity into perpetual warfare ever.

I'm not a literalist or Christian authority, but I enjoyed your post and question, which is food for thought.

Yep,... sad isn't it.

Serial Killer accepts "Christ" before he is executed = Saved.
Mother questions why "God" would let her daughter be raped and murdered = Burn in hell for eternity.

Some seriously stupid shyte in my opinion.

omg

Sin = the Law

People broke the law... Innocent Man died. Get it?

If you live within the law...then you don't sin! = don't break the law.

farout.. it isn't some ticket to break the law or cause Christ to keep suffering. Christ is the symbol of innocent People who suffer because others live outside of the law and cause others to suffer.

reply to post by JizzyMcButter


what if the individual had a mental disorder?

what if the moron cried and felt remorse for all the bad he had done and truly prayed ... that he was sorry? and asked for forgiveness?

it is a hard one... but some People are sick and they cannot help what they do.

when I was raped as a child, all I wanted was him to be sorry for what he did and yet in court, he laughed. Difference is that he knows what he is doing is wrong and has no remorse.

I read an article where a Man had been charged as a serial killer in the US... his Wife was adamant that something was not right...it was out of character. Anyway, he died within a year of being brought to justice and the coroner found that he had brain tumors in an area that would cause weird stuff.

Both sides were relieved to get a 'reason' for the attrocities. How many People just ask... why? wtf?

sometimes, things can be explained via medicine.

Originally posted by triune
Jesus did not come to start a religion, nor did he come to save us by an act of self sacrifice. He came to tell and show by example how we can save ourselves.

Matthew 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

a "Sword" for the symbol minded is an "ideology"

eg: an ideology of Truth.

Just for interest's sake, what do the Muslims do when they sin?

Originally posted by halfoldman
Just for interest's sake, what do the Muslims do when they sin?

they spit on their wives and call a jihad and then they martyr themselves and expect 20 virgins waiting in Heaven afterward.

The "Saved Through Faith Alone" group, I am thankful to be able to say, isn't the sole representative of Christianity. There are, as I understand it, 2 more groups:

The "Works are evidence of Faith" people, who also say that it is only belief that Jesus died for your sins that is required for salvation, but if someone sincerely does this, then their works would reflect this, and they'd be doing good deeds.

Then there are the "Faith AND Works" people, who say that after sincerely accepting Jesus, they must ALSO strive to do good deeds, and stay away from bad stuff.

It is a somewhat troublesome problem in Christianity, that all three of these systems can be evidenced from the scripture, although I'd say the 3rd system (Faith AND Works) is correct, because the Bible DEFINITELY talks about both faith and works.

As far as I understand it, when a muslim sins, they must sincerely repent, ask forgiveness of the person who was sinned against, and ask forgiveness of God, and make ammends for whatever sin they committed and accept the consequences of that sin (which may be punishment by the state).

If they did not do this, it is possible they would have to spend a certain amount of time in hell in the afterlife.

reply to post by babloyi

The "Saved Through Faith Alone" group, I am thankful to be able to say, isn't the sole representative of Christianity. There are, as I understand it, 2 more groups:

The "Works are evidence of Faith" people

That's the same group. ^^^^


We are saved by grace, through faith. (Romans, Hebrews, Galatians) And if you read James it's clear that good works follow true saving faith. If you read Ephesians 2:8-9 it clearly says we're saved by grace alone through faith alone. Then the very next verse (10) says the purpose is for us to do the good works God has given to us to do.

There are only two groups:

A: Gift Righteousness (Grace alone)

B: Works Righteousness (Me + Jesus + X)



"Religion Saves" - And 9 Other Misconceptions #4 Faith vs Works.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Even after this, if he commits another murder, or another act of adultery or another theft...all he has to do is accept that he is a sinner and that Jesus died for his sins. Going by the christian salvation plan, this evil man has been given the license to sin over and over again and still be granted a get-out-of-hell ticket.

Wow, we don't believe that at all. Where did you get that from? That would be evidence the person doesn't have saving faith at all. Paul unmercifully puts that false idea above to bed in Romans, and James echoes the same thing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Wow, we don't believe that at all. Where did you get that from? That would be evidence the person doesn't have saving faith at all. Paul unmercifully puts that false idea above to bed in Romans, and James echoes the same thing.

Huh, so you mean to tell me that accepting Jesus died for mankinds sin is a one time thing?
What happens to a "saved" christian who sins after accepting Jesus' sin sacrifice? You mean he can't accept Jesus dying for his sins more than once?

Even then, going by the idea that one is redeemed by accepting Jesus' sin sacrifice, a man can still commit every heinous sin several times and then accept Jesus' sin sacrifice once and for all, and be granted a get-out-of-hell card... which is still absurd enough.

It helps if you actually read the same bible the christians do, if you want to understand what they believe.

Galatians 5:18-25

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:16

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

By the bibles own words, those christians who play the games you are describing in your OP, are literally playing with fire, and could end up some place they don't want to be.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . true saving faith . . .

This sounds like you are advocating self-salvation, where by believing, you are saved.
That would be salvation by works.
The work God desires is believing in His Son.
Believing in Jesus is a work.
Our work is not what saves us.
Grace is the unmerited gift of the spirit, which rightfully belongs only to those without sin (this spirit being holy by coming from God).
"Faith" to Paul is the bases for the new covenant, as "Law" was the basis of the old covenant. It is a way of life for those who believe Jesus is the Christ, and is driven by that spirit which was gifted to us through our belief, and is a road which involves good works as being a part of Christ, who was a doer of good works, and we strive to become like him. If we are found in Christ, doing the things of Christ, we will be saved. Those "found" doing the works of evil will not be saved.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Huh, so you mean to tell me that accepting Jesus died for mankinds sin is a one time thing?

If you look at NOTurTypical's signature, he has a link to a Mark Driscoll video, he being a Calvinist. Apparently the philosophy is you are predestined to be saved, you demonstrate a faith that you are saved, and then from that point forward, you have faith in that earlier demonstration of faith that you acted out, and then go on to live life normally, with no further concerns regarding your salvation. The trick is that it has to be "real saving faith" (according to this philosophy), otherwise you are only fooling yourself and will go to hell regardless of what you believe.

Atheists don't get a "Kings x" ticket to absolve themselves of personal responsibility. We are responsible for our shortcomings. It is our conscience that guides us, I believe it is a much more honest approach to personal responsibility.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The problem here (in the 1st and/or 2nd group), NuT, is that actually doing good deeds isn't emphasised at all, it is just that you are saved, then good deeds is something that will happen.

See, if a person "accepts Jesus", and then does no good deeds at all, not doing bad ones, but not doing any good deeds either, just living for himself, etc., he'd still be "saved".

If a person "accepts Jesus", and then does no good deeds at all, but "realises that in the end we are all sinners", and does some bad ones (maybe by mistake, maybe in a rush of passion, maybe a one time thing), he asks forgiveness, after doing those bad deeds, but then maybe does some other bad deeds, and asks forgiveness again, after all, we are all sinners, etc., he'd still be "saved".

If a person "accepts Jesus", and then does good deeds, he'd also be "saved". But the Bible emphasises that he is no different from those other people because of his good deeds.

reply to post by halfoldman


Good post.

But Jesus also upgraded "adultery" and "murder" to include looking at a woman with lust and hating someone, respectively.

But if you can be saved by accepting Jesus' sin sacrifice, why bother?
Look at women with lust and hate everyone as much as possible....so long as you accept Jesus died for your sins.

Jesus also stated that one who sins with their eyes and hands are to cut those parts off from their bodies... but why should you? Didn't Jesus die for the sins of mankind? So why rip your eyeballs out and cut your hand off, because christians tell you that Jesus paid the price for your sins.

I mean... why bother about sin, when one can simply convert to christianity and accept that Jesus died for all your sins?

There's no "catch", right?