Exclusive! First hand Witness: Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman Innocent Smoking Gun

reply to post by Autumnal


I recently added some evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman, although it is true that he could have been attacking Zimmerman in self-defense.

reply to post by fbluth

I think its unfortunate that zimmerman thought he had to stop someone walking down the street who was not committing a crime. Its unfortunate that strangers made GZ so paranoid that he had to follow them and then cause trouble til the point that he cowards out and murders them. I think that is much sadder than GZ not being able to just take on TM in a fist fight. Funny how we see things differently.

I don't think we see things as differently as you assume. What I am trying to do is explore the possibility that Zimmerman was attacked for the sake of figuring out what happened. If he was attacked, then your scenario is irrelevant, and my point that he shouldn't have used a gun becomes relevant.

If your scenario is the one that happened, then I agree with you.

So far, I am convinced that there was at least a skirmish where Zimmerman was attacked - although Zimmerman could have started that.

Maybe this video will help you understand.





Since your post was well thought-out and a fairly good counter-argument to mine, I guess I should address a few other issues.

1) The hate crime. Was it a hate crime?

A little digging showed that Zimmerman had tutored black children in his neighborhood on his free time, and amusingly enough, that some of Zimmerman’s maternal grandparents and great grandparents are black. Indeed, riffing off Obama’s remark, a CNN legal analyst said the president’s grandparents would have looked a lot like George Zimmmerman’s.

Link

2) Do Zimmerman's injuries prove that he was attacked?
The bloody head and the broken nose and the black eye do not prove he was attacked, but that there was a scuffle in which Martin did assault Zimmerman.

3) Once again, do the injuries prove an attack?
They do not prove an attack, but they do prove that there was a scuffle. I think this disagreement might have originated over my use of the word "attack." In retrospect, I should have specified that I only meant there was a scuffle, not that Martin started it.

4) So how do the light scratch marks on Martin's fists prove anything?
I was talking about the medical report detailing Zimmerman's injuries, not the autopsy report detailing Martin's.

5) The article does not claim Zimmerman acted in self-defense, his defense team does.
You are right, messed up here. I did not mean to.

6) The fact that he had smoked pot 6 days ago is not relevant at all!
I said it wasn't relevant, and I meant it. I don't think marijuana would make someone act more aggressively anyway. He would probably still be alive had he been smoking at the time.

There are witness reports stating that Martin attacked Zimmerman. Here is one.

The witness said he was inside his home, about 30 feet away from the incident, when he heard a “commotion coming from the walkway” behind his residence. He said he had seen a “a black male, wearing a dark colored ‘hoodie’ on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help.” The black male “was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’” The witness said he called out that he was dialing 911, then heard a pop and saw the black male “laid out on the grass.”

Link

In addition:

Two police reports written the night that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin said that Zimmerman had a bloody face and nose, according to police reports made public today. The reports also note that two witness accounts appear to back up Zimmerman's version of what happened when they describe a man on his back with another person wearing a hoodie straddling him and throwing punches. In addition, Trayvon Martin's father told an investigator after listening to 911 tapes that captured a man's voice frantically callling for help that it was not his son calling for help.

Link


That is the best evidence I can find so far, a few witnesses who may or may not be telling the truth, and a subjective opinion that the voice on the 911 call was not Martin.

In the end, I would like to say that it is a tragedy that young Martin lost his life.
Well, that took about an hour. Best wishes.

reply to post by darkbake


I can admit that TM might have attacked first. However, since there is a witness that seen someone being chased towards the 'T' of the backyard sidewalks going TOWARDS TM house, even if TM did sucker punch GZ first, he then ran. So yes that would have made him the criminal. But since there is a witness that seen a chase towards TM house It seems safe to say that TM was the one being chased. So lets say TM did sucker punch GZ and then run away like a punk. GZ did not have a right to then chase down TM to continue the fight. If TM ran then GZ should have called police back or waited for them to arrive. So I can admit TM MIGHT have struck first, but if he did, he then ran and GZ followed. That chasing and following is now second, separate incident that GZ did not fear for his life over. That is why I think GZ is guilty. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

But me having said that, GZ fans will not accept the fact that GZ very well may have grabbed or tried to detain TM in some way. They absolutely insist that GZ did not do that. Yet all his actions point to that being what happened. TM ran when GZ was still in his vehicle, that shows he had no intent to bother GZ. GZ got out of his car and followed TM after he called police on him. That shows intent that GZ didn't want TM to get away and he tried to detain him.

1. I have yet to see these black children or their parents. So no disrespect, but until I see them, they don't exist. Just like I don't believe GZ ever passed out flyers in black churches parking lots for Sherman Ware. If you have to try so hard to NOT look like a racist, then chances are your a racist. If I was in GZ shoes, ive got 20 black folks that at the very least would stand up and say 'yes he is an a**hole, but he aint no racist'....GZ had Joe Oliver. LOL

2. I disagree. GZ injuries are consistent with a scuffle on the ground. Any 'strikes' by TM during a scuffle are defensive marks on GZ of TM trying to get away from him. I see no evidence that GZ was struck directly in the nose, or had his head slammed. It looks like he had a violent roll on the grass with another person.

3. I can agree with this. Yes there was a scuffle and we don't know who started it for sure. (But based on the chase and other witness statements, i do lean towards GZ started the entire thing trying to detain TM)

4. GZ records actually prove nothing. He went to a family DR. the next day, no xrays, turned down a follow up appt. with ear/nose/throat specialist. The only medical report so far on GZ that to me holds weight is the EMS report. And it only indicates his minor wounds and does not indicate anything life threatening at that time. GZ also refused to go to the ER 3 times by police reports. This all points to me that GZ over reacted in a situation OR he accidentally shot TM. I don't think he was out for blood that night, but the evidence, to me, does indicate that he is responsible entirely for how the night played out and he should be punished for his actions.

5. Its ok, ive messed up. At least some us can admit it.

6. Agree again. Even if TM was stoned, which its fact he wasn't, there is no scientific evidence that i know of that pot makes anyone violent.


There are problems with johns statements. 1st he has said to police now that he is not sure who was yelling for help. John also said he went outside and said 'stop, im calling 911'. However John was the last person to actually call 911. His call didn't come in til 1 minute 4 seconds AFTER the shooting. So one has to ask if John was outside, seen TM alive...he would have had to have said this prior to 7:16;56s...thats when TM was shot. So why did it take John so long to call 911? The first 911 call after the shooting comes in 10 seconds after the shooting. John is not telling everything or something. John could use his own thread here probably. My point is I don't find John to be terribly credible based on what I just mentioned and a few other things.

In your quote it says 2 witnesses. John is the only one who in any way backs up GZ story. Ive listened to all the 911 calls, read all 190 pages of evidence, listened to all the audio interviews with witnesses that are out and there is no 2nd witness that backs up GZ claims, unless they are referring to Johns Girlfriend, who was in the house with him and made statements to police that night. But she didn't see anything, based on her reports she was on crutches and was crawling up the stairs as to not fool with the crutches. All the other witness say that it was GZ on top of TM .... including John's neighbor who was about to let her dog out, she heard John say 911 and she grabbed her dog, set her alarm and called 911. She says that TM was on bottom. There is also the all the other witness who report seeing GZ on top, shoot, and walk away.

Mine took awhile as well. Best to you as well. ;-)

4.

reply to post by fbluth


S for you. Very excellent post.

At least the bickering and name calling has ceased in this thread and civil discussion has commenced.

It seems that new evidence is slowly coming to light. I just hope the justice system makes the right call in this case. I too don't think that GZ was out for blood. But regardless, he killed a young man whether or not he was attacked and he should be penalized for such actions. He will also have to answer to his maker about his poor decision. Though... he may have thought that decision, at the time, was the proper decision considering he was getting his ass whooped.

Originally posted by fbluth
reply to post by rebellender

 

I made my point that you are wrong. Thank you for showing me you can't follow and comprehend a conversation.

I will be back on this thread after everything is done when Zimmerman is either let go or found innocent.
He will go free btw. It is obvious what happened in this case, but unfortunately the pro trayvon side (which will remain in denial even when Zimmerman goes free and never be able to accept that Martin was the criminal here) are incapable of looking at evidence without bias.

I will be back when Zimmerman is a free man.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
I will be back on this thread after everything is done when Zimmerman is either let go or found innocent.
He will go free btw. It is obvious what happened in this case, but unfortunately the pro trayvon side (which will remain in denial even when Zimmerman goes free and never be able to accept that Martin was the criminal here) are incapable of looking at evidence without bias.

I will be back when Zimmerman is a free man.

me too!!!

its a pointless carousel right now

Originally posted by rebellender

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
I will be back on this thread after everything is done when Zimmerman is either let go or found innocent.
He will go free btw. It is obvious what happened in this case, but unfortunately the pro trayvon side (which will remain in denial even when Zimmerman goes free and never be able to accept that Martin was the criminal here) are incapable of looking at evidence without bias.

I will be back when Zimmerman is a free man.

me too!!!

its a pointless carousel right now

Agreed.
This makes three.

I will have to keep fighting the disinformation
here in this thread, with accurate information
that zimmerman is innocent. The least I can do.

Originally posted by fbluth
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Point me to where TM first ran from GZ. Not where you want him to have ran, but the documented, proven point at which TM started to run. Then point me to which direction he was running. Sources please.

Poor scared GZ could have walked back to his car in the 87 second from the time he said 'ok' til the time he hung up with dispatch. Why didn't he. A fast walk he could have made it. Why didn't he make it? Was he that out of shape that he couldn't make a return trip that took 15 seconds to get to point A, but he couldn't back to point B in 87 seconds. If you are concerned about how long it took TM to get back to his house, why aren't you concerned about GZ gettin back to his car? Seems hypocritical.

How would TM know that GZ was going to exit his car so he would have the golden oppurtunity to ambush and sucker punch him? Did he have physic abilities that you are aware of? Not to mention, just like pops, you know its been clearly established that TM didn't ambush anyone. The were some words spoken between the 2 of them...that is not an ambush. Why do you insist on promoting that lie?

Why is it ok to say IF TM had just ran home, but its not ok to say IF GZ had just stayed in his car?

Yes I do need side by side stats for both of them. If you want to compare their running abilities I would like to see some proof to back up your claims. If you don't have that evidence, don't promote it unless you label it as your GZ fantasies.

GZ seemed pretty fit in his PD pictures. You can call him whatever you want, but to me it looks fat george could have kept up. I know GZ fans view GZ as an anorexic would view themselves in a mirror. All GZ fans see is fat and out of shape man, a man who could never run, a man who was completely defenseless (except that gun), a man who is an angel. That is not what the real world see. We see a man very capable of committing the crimes he is charged with.......cuz thats what he is.

The forensic teams who have
been on this case probably have
a model like this. They know which way
the bullet went and how the positions
of the person shot and the shooter
were at.. It blows the zimmerman just went up
and shot him theory out of the water.

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Autumnal

 

I recently added some evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman, although it is true that he could have been attacking Zimmerman in self-defense.

No you did not. What you added was the same article I already addressed, not evidence of anything let alone that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

The difference between you and me is that I do not have my mind made up and then look for things to support it.

Originally posted by popsmayhem
zimmerman was being attacked screaming for
help and was threatened for his life, he had every right
to stand his ground and shoot treyvon seeing how
treyvon was the aggressor as per say the witness accounts,
9-11 tapes, it was all self defense..

Where did you hear about all of this?
I am just curious.

reply to post by popsmayhem


Goodluck.
Just don't tire yourself out. As I said a few pages back anyone with half a brain cell knows that Zimmerman will be found innocent if it even goes to trial. Even the less dimwitted liberals and dems are speaking out that murder 2 will never fly and should have never been charged.

See you when something big comes out and then again when he goes free.

Ok i know this question was asked before! But, i didnt see a definate answer.


What did trayvon do wrong to have zimmerman chase him?

Back at square one here. Just trying to put the puzzle together with most of the peices.

Soooooo trayvon walking and zimmerman saw him.

What was trayvon doing wrong when zimmerman saw him, to cause following leading up to chasing after?

Honest answers please.

Something wrong or nothing wrong?

Originally posted by PLASIFISK
Ok i know this question was asked before! But, i didnt see a definate answer.


What did trayvon do wrong to have zimmerman chase him?

Back at square one here. Just trying to put the puzzle together with most of the peices.

Soooooo trayvon walking and zimmerman saw him.

What was trayvon doing wrong when zimmerman saw him, to cause following leading up to chasing after?

Honest answers please.

Something wrong or nothing wrong?

edit on 22-5-2012 by PLASIFISK because: (no reason given)

He wasn't chased he was followed.

What caused the "following" was that he (TM) looked suspicious at night behind houses in a neighborhood that had been burglarized numerous times within the past couple of months. Trayvon was black and the burglaries happened to have been committed by blacks. That is what aroused the suspicion of the neighborhood watch man and the reason why he followed.

Suspicion and description are what caused the neighborhood watchman to follow or keep an eye on TM.

Jumping back into the thread! Good god this got ugly quick!! Oh man, this is like that bad reality TV show you can't help but tune into every week

I'm at the point where I almost don't even care if Zimmerman is innocent or guilty anymore, I'm just fascinated and morbidly curious about the psychology of the people believing the extreme sides of this case. I just don't understand how, with the evidence we have been given thus far, someone can make a claim that Trayvon 100% without a doubt turned around and assaulted Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman without a doubt hunted down Trayvon and murdered him. It's totally fine to have an opinion on what happened, but to state either as fact at THIS point, with the evidence we know, and to call people who disagree delusional, makes absolutely no sense. In that single minute window--after Zimmerman hung up the phone and before the first 911 caller-- we have zeeeeero eyewitnesses, accounts or evidence. All we have is Zimmerman's anecdote, and a whole bunch of unreleased evidence we can speculate about.

Anyways, I have a hypothesis about why this has us all divided so much. Perhaps someone can state this all more eloquently than I can, but I'll throw this out there anyways, so hear me out:

I think everyone sees themselves in either Zimmerman or Trayvon in some way or another. BOTH sides look at themselves as the victim. For Zimmerman supporters, the bullies are the court of public opinion and Trayvon. For Trayvon supporters, the bullies are the broken system and Zimmerman. If Zimmerman is found innocent or guilty, it speaks to everyone PERSONALLY, raising major implications about the power of these bullies in our everyday lives.

BOTH sides strongly believe in "innocence until proven guilty."

For Trayvon supporters, Trayvon was already tried and convicted, and is now serving a life sentence. For these people, there is outrage because even though its supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, given the current information there is not enough to prove his guilt, but he was never given a chance to show his side of the story.

For Zimmerman supporters, Zimmerman was already tried and convicted by the media, and no matter what happens is pretty much serving a life sentence. For these people, there is outrage because even though its supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, given the current information there is not enough to prove his guilt, but was never given a chance to show his side of the story.

And so here is where the psychological disconnect comes in: For Zimmerman there is actually a chance to reverse the bullying and share this side of the story, so his supporters are fighting tooth and nail, however for Trayvon there never was that chance. So for Trayvon supporters to find consolation, they actually need to know BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that Trayvon really was guilty, because in their eyes HE is the one on trial. For example, it isn't enough to have one bruised knuckle to prove that Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman in a life threatening manner-- innocent until proven guilty. On the other hand, Zimmerman supporters don't understand this at all and fight it, as it is a direct threat to the way HIS trial is technically supposed to work-- he doesn't need to prove anything-- beyond reasonable doubt.

In summary, TM supporters are retroactively simulating the trial for victim TM, seeking proof that TM is guilty of assault, while GZ supporters are currently attacking these people and calling them insane because "the law doesn't work that way" and dismissing that they need to prove anything.

Unfortunately, there isn't and quite likely will never be enough evidence to absolutely prove it went either way, hence the back and forth for nearly 400 pages. Now can we all hold hands, take a few deep breaths and let the story develop a bit before we blow each other's heads off??

reply to post by PLASIFISK


Well since ive been told over and over I don't know what im talking abuot, take this with a grain of salt.

The SPD has said that there is no evidence that TM was doing anything criminal.

So my answer to your question is he was doing nothing wrong.

reply to post by Autumnal


I haven't made up my mind on the case. I simply wanted to find evidence on that side of the case since it seemed to me that the other side of the case was being influenced heavily by politics. I might try making a case against Zimmerman for fun next time, but I'm not the kind of person who is going to use the following statements:

"He was racist" (without proof)
"He chased Martin" (without proof)

Still, it could be done I think.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Evidence is on my side, but you already knew that.
Trayvon's knuckles were injured in a way that indicates he was beating someone, Zimmerman's knuckles were not.

Why are you refusing to say exactly what the wounds to Trayvon's knuckle was? Why are you lying and saying it was more than it is?

Trayvon had no damage on his body, Zimmerman had lacerations on his head and a broken nose.

Ummmm....Trayvon had a bullet hole in his chest. That is considered substantial damage.