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Exclusive! First hand Witness: Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman Innocent Smoking Gun

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posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


First, why are you so defensive?

Just like I was trying to convey to you that TM could have run because GZ displayed his gun. We know TM wasn't casing house when he ran, if you listen to the dispatch call GZ says 'he coming to check me out'....so was he casing houses and checking out GZ at the same time. I am basing my arguments on things we actually know happen. You are basing yours on things that have never been mentioned in this case. TM couldn't be casing houses, and checking out GZ while circling his car.

GZ could have displayed his gun while TM was getting closer as some sort of warning. We don't know, but we do know TM wasn't casing houses and casing GZ at the same time, like you propose. And if he was up to no good like you say, then why did he wait so long to run? Why did he approach GZ to 'check him out' .. then run. See that is where my possible scenario works, and yours doesn't. TM wasn't a spirit at that point, he couldn't be doing so many things at once.




posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


They don't show what you want them to show. We can discuss TM high school records as soon as we have access to GZ high school records. If TM had a criminal record that could be scrutinize we could do that. But basing you opinion of whether he deserved to die on being suspended from school a few times isn't a very strong argument.

I prefer to look at things that matter, like grown adults being accused of hitting gf's, and police officers, and showing other violence towards woman than to look at a high school transcript of a young person who is learning about life and lessons. But like I said, as soon as GZ high school transcripts become available we can revisit this issue.

They do that to protect juveniles. We have all sorts of laws to protect juveniles. If GZ wanted to use these types of things in his defense he should have killed a legal adult, then no one would have even mentioned HS records.....so I have to wonder, why are you?



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by fbluth
 




But dont think you know me because I know think OJ simpson is innocent of the actual murder and only guilty of covering up, that will do you no good, not in this conversation or any other.

Didn't say that I think I know you.
From what I have read so far, I can't really say that I want to.

Your choice of theory to believe in the OJ case tells me a lot about how much facts mean to you. I have read about the idea that Jason did the murders. IMO, it is a whacky theory that has little to back it up in terms of facts. If you believe that is what happened, that simply tells me what facts mean to you... that's all. Human beings are very complex, I would never claim to know you.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


1. Wrong.
2. Wrong.
3. Wrong.
4. Personal attack ... pretentious prig
5. Lies and accusations.
6. I can deem you an unreliable source if I want to. You can't stop me. I think you are an unreliable source. I would never use you as a source. I can say that and it isn't a personal attack.
7. Lies and more accusations tossed my way. Thanks, I caught them.
8. I don't owe you any thing. I will post how I see fit. I am allowed in this coversation just as much as you are. You can try to control the conversation. Ill just stay on topic.
9. Get over it and leave me alone. I didn't bring your name into this conversation, someone else did. I expressed that I don't find you a credible source, I am allowed to do that. I didn't attack you like you claim. You read my response to someone who mentioned you. If you don't like your name being brought up, tell them. I responded to them, not you. So really, get over it. I don't find you the least bit credible AFTER reading all of you posts.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by fbluth
 



First, why are you so defensive?


If your reading comprehension was better, you might realize that I am not being defensive.
I am making a point of your seeming inability to comprehend what I am attempting to convey to you in my posts.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


the feeling is mutual......

your choice of dismissing anything someone told you to believe tells me alot about you, you've been told OJ was guilty and you've bought into....like it or not OJ was acquitted of criminal charges....therefore like it or not, im right. OJ is innocent of murder in the criminal sense......the killer is still out there and his name is jason simpson.

We can end this conversation now, it easy to see you are judgmental and we will never find common ground to have a civil conversation.

Ill be ignoring you from here on out. Take care.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


See you have to use language that you think undermines me. It doesn't, it makes anything you say look weak. I can read and comprehend just fine, but people like you that use that as rebuttal can't really hold a conversation or debate. Its a proven debate tactic used by the losing side.

Me asking why you are so defensive is because you post come across as very defensive. If you don't like that I'm sorry, you seem to attack at any thing, It doesn't matter what the point or the issue your first line of defense is attack. That is also a tactic used by the losing side of a debate.

Im sorry you are losing, I know it isn't fun.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by fbluth
1. Wrong.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....


Originally posted by fbluth
2. Wrong.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....


Originally posted by fbluth
3. Wrong.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....


Originally posted by fbluth
4. Personal attack ... pretentious prig



pre·ten·tious
   [pri-ten-shuhs] Show IPA

adjective
1. full of pretense or pretension.
2.characterized by assumption of dignity or importance.
3.making an exaggerated outward show; ostentatious.




prig
1    [prig] Show IPA

noun
a person who displays or demands of others pointlessly precise conformity, fussiness about trivialities, or exaggerated propriety, especially in a self-righteous or irritating manner.


Yes - pretentious prig. - Quit deflecting


Originally posted by fbluth
5. Lies and accusations.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....



Originally posted by fbluth
6. I can deem you an unreliable source if I want to. You can't stop me. I think you are an unreliable source. I would never use you as a source. I can say that and it isn't a personal attack.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....



Originally posted by fbluth
7. Lies and more accusations tossed my way. Thanks, I caught them.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....



Originally posted by fbluth
8. I don't owe you any thing. I will post how I see fit. I am allowed in this coversation just as much as you are. You can try to control the conversation. Ill just stay on topic.

So now you cant support your lies and accusations.. Typical. You owe me answers to the question that you have consitently ignored. Since you seem to forget, I answered your questions, incouding questions about my background, and here you are, unwilling to do so. Is it because your background has nothing to do with police / law and by admitting that you might come under closer scrutiny?
Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....



Originally posted by fbluth
9. Get over it and leave me alone.

You are the one who felt the need to come back to this thread and right out of the gate, decided to include me in one of your posts to another poster. If you dont want me to come back at you, then quit attacking me and my profession while making claims about me you cant support. Its as simple as that.


Originally posted by fbluth
I didn't bring your name into this conversation, someone else did.

You cant even admit your mistake. My name was brought up by Butcher in reference to legalities. YOU are the one who decided to attack me in your response. You are the one who sent us back down this path not me. Lik,e I said I am sick and tired of your accusations and your refusal to support them. If you dont want to me to correct you then stop making accusations and support your argument with facts.


Originally posted by fbluth
I expressed that I don't find you a credible source, I am allowed to do that. I didn't attack you like you claim. You read my response to someone who mentioned you. If you don't like your name being brought up, tell them. I responded to them, not you. So really, get over it. I don't find you the least bit credible AFTER reading all of you posts.

I dont have to leave you alone and as I stated before I could care less if you like me or not... As you stated to me before, I state to you now. Any time you post and you are wrong, I will be there to call you out and demand you support it with facts and sources. Something you have failed to do and now that you are getting a taste of your own medicine, you seem to not like it. You do not know what you are talking about, there are people in the thread who wish to learn, and I will use your posts as examples of how to be wrong any chance I get.

You brought that on yourself by making accusations against me that are untrue as well as your inability to support your accusations with facts / sources.

So no, I wont leave you alone. As I said, you brought this back when you decided to come back into this thread and behave in the manner you did. Dont get pissed at me for holding you accountible for your own words and accusations.

Support your accusations / position, answer the questions, prove me wrong and quit deflecting / obfuscating....

As far as remaining on topic we were doing that until you came back and decided to start the drama up again.

So again, please
* - cite your sources that counters any one of my arguments.
* - cite your sources that contradict the links I have supplied to Florida statutes.
* - cite your sources that counter Federal appeals / US Supreme Court rulings in this matter.
* - cite your sources that shows I don't know police procedure (something you are still refusing to do).
* - shows us the complete autopsy report / crime scene diagram (not media / 3rd party reconstructions) that support your theory that Zimmerman could not have been injured or hit his head on concrete based on location of the body.
* - cite all Florida laws that I "got wrong"
* - tell us what your background is... You have still refused to do that.

If you arent going to bother to remain on topic or use facts or behave in a civil manner then I will just skip your posts as if you dont exist. Chances are its going to happen anyways but I will give you one last shot.
edit on 12-5-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by fbluth
reply to post by butcherguy
 


the feeling is mutual......

your choice of dismissing anything someone told you to believe tells me alot about you, you've been told OJ was guilty and you've bought into....like it or not OJ was acquitted of criminal charges....therefore like it or not, im right. OJ is innocent of murder in the criminal sense......the killer is still out there and his name is jason simpson.

We can end this conversation now, it easy to see you are judgmental and we will never find common ground to have a civil conversation.

Ill be ignoring you from here on out. Take care.

Thank you so much!
I think that others should take note.
This may be helpful.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


This is all I am going to say to you. I included you in a post because someone used you as a source. I scrutinized that information just as I would if they posted a source as the nbc or fox. It was no different of an analogy. I did not attack you in any way. I said I didn't find you a credible source. I did not bring you into the conversation, but if someone uses you as a source, I am going to take issue with that because I don't find you a credible source from past experience with you. That is how we vet our sources. I, personally, have vetted you not credible. I am sorry that struck a nerve with you, that is just how I feel.

I don't owe you anything just because you ask, I post sources when sources are needed, I don't post sources just because you demand them. I don't answer to you. My background is irrelevant, just like your is. You say you are a police officer, ok, do I have to believe that? No. This is the internet anyone can say anything, I could tell you what my education is and profession, but it would hold no bearing on this conversation. You wouldn't believe me if I told you, just like I don't believe you are a police officer because you say so.

We need no further interaction. I mentioned you because someone else used you as a source, you replied to me in regards to that message. I will ask you to refrain from speaking to me, there really is no point. You have also shown we will never find common ground and frankly, I don't like you based on what I know of you. I don't make it a habit of communicating with people I don't like.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by fbluth
This is all I am going to say to you. I included you in a post because someone used you as a source. I scrutinized that information just as I would if they posted a source as the nbc or fox. It was no different of an analogy.

Thats just it.. You have demonstrated you dont read posts. Now you apparently feel the need to lie about a post because you once again got called out.


Originally posted by fbluth
I did not attack you in any way. I said I didn't find you a credible source. I did not bring you into the conversation, but if someone uses you as a source, I am going to take issue with that because I don't find you a credible source from past experience with you. That is how we vet our sources. I, personally, have vetted you not credible. I am sorry that struck a nerve with you, that is just how I feel.

Thats right - keep obfuscating while trying to wiggle out of yet another accusation / lie you cant support -


First off, X likes to link alot and talk like he knows what he is saying, he doesn't most of the time and he had very limited knowledge of this case. Thats been proven in past post. He can copy and paste and link a link just as well as the next guy, but most of the time what he is posting has no relevance to what he is trying to say or to this case. Sorry, he isn't very credible in my opinion, ive read his post and his reasoning.


Thats is an attack.. You are accusing me of something you cant support. Again, back it up or quit making crap up, its that simple. Since you feel the need to "vet" me, tell us what your background is in so we know what steps you took when you "vetd" me. Determining a pesons reliability and knowledge requires the ivnestigator to know what the hell they are talking about and looking for in the first place.

Whats your background in? Since you are so fond of telling others I dont know what im talking about, establish your own credability to do make those claims and tell us your background and education/ experience.



Originally posted by fbluth
I don't owe ....snipped because its the same crap over and over and over again

So you cant support your claims / accusations. - noted..



Originally posted by fbluth
We need no further interaction. I mentioned you because someone else used you as a source, you replied to me in regards to that message. I will ask you to refrain from speaking to me, there really is no point. You have also shown we will never find common ground and frankly, I don't like you based on what I know of you. I don't make it a habit of communicating with people I don't like.

Again I could care less.. You are the one who came storming back in acting like a child, accusing peope of lieing and attacking them. As I stated I will call you out when you post misinformation and I will ask for yout o cite your sources. Absent that thts the only contact you will get from me - me pointing out just how wrong you are.

Lastly - To put you once again back on topic instead of derailing the thread -
So again, please
* - cite your sources that counters any one of my arguments.
* - cite your sources that contradict the links I have supplied to Florida statutes.
* - cite your sources that counter Federal appeals / US Supreme Court rulings in this matter.
* - cite your sources that shows I don't know police procedure (something you are still refusing to do).
* - shows us the complete autopsy report / crime scene diagram (not media / 3rd party reconstructions) that support your theory that Zimmerman could not have been injured or hit his head on concrete based on location of the body.
* - cite all Florida laws that I "got wrong"
* - tell us what your background is... You have still refused to do that.

You made the claims and you are telling people they are wrong, support it or dont say it and withdraw it.


edit on 12-5-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by cdesigns
 


That's pretty distasteful.
You have to understand though.. if someone can make something to rile people up they will.
Those were probably printed by one skinhead but democrats will have you believing they come free with every new handgun purchase in the U.S.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by fbluth
 


There is absolutely nothing in your post that meshes with reality. When you read the entire thread maybe you will get an idea. I don't even have to give a decent response because there is so much garbage in your post it's not worth addressing it all.

Just go through your post thought by thought and know now that what you said/thought was wrong.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by conspiracy nut
 


That is impossible.
You and I both know it. Trayvon had a head start because of GZ being on the phone with the dispatcher. There is NO way the heftier near 30 year old could catch the 17 year old football player that had a head start.

The reason the met again was because Trayvon hid and when GZ passed in front of him TM jumped out and attacked him. It is the most likely scenario.

Also FBluth is clueless thinking that GZ had his gun out. If he had his gun out he would have never gotten jumped in the first place. Who would get that close to someone with a gun? If TM saw a gun, trust me he wouldn't have hid and jumped GZ he WOULD have run home then. Honestly if GZ had shown the gun TM would probably be alive today, instead he thought he was going to take an unarmed guy and ended up shot.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by fbluth
 


Nothing about your scenario works. I have layed out the most likely scenario based on the FACTS in this thread many times. I will gladly lay it out one more time if you need to learn something (though I assume you have already read it when you were signed into one of your other accounts here).



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


No you haven't. You have completely ignored the witness the inv. mentioned at the bond hearing that seen someone being chased just seconds before the shooting running towards TM house. So what you have done is make up a fantasy. TM did not hide anywhere or ambush anyone. If you want to stay up on this case and have a conversation fine. But all you want to do is make up accusation against TM and me. You haven't even watched the bond hearing, if you had you would know the prosecution has a witness that seen a chase right before the shots.

So.
1. Follow the case or don't talk about it.

2. Quit making up things and passing them off as facts or even possible. Its' not possible Trayvon hid and ambushed, their is a witness that proves this.

3. If you have a problem with me, fine. but don't act like you even know what is going on in this case. You keep pushing the narrative that TM ambushed GZ if you had knew one iota of what was going on in this case then you would know that that is not possible. Since you don't know that, I take that to mean, you really don't anything about this case and base all you opinions on your emotions and fantasy.

4. You don't know what TM saw that night. You don't know if GZ had his gun out. We do no TM didn't ambush anyone. Well those of us following the case and listening know this. You really need to catch up on this case or move on. All you are doing is passing along false information as fact.

edit on 13-5-2012 by fbluth because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-5-2012 by fbluth because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


how is that the most likely scenario? zimmermans dad, brother and trayvons girlfriend all said zimmerman confronted trayvon. the prosecutors say they have evidence and witnesses that said that zimmerman chased trayvon and at one point trayvon turned around and fought zimmerman in self defense. stand your ground?



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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Little update for you guys
the donations are piling in for
both parties, and I say good..

The more money these families get
the less the state of fl will be out
of this whole fiasco..
Donations flood in for families of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman

The mother of slain Florida teenager Trayvon Martin will be able to take about eight months of paid leave from her county job, thanks to the generosity of county employees.

Sybrina Fulton, who has worked at the Miami-Dade County housing authority for 23 years, collected $40,825 worth of donated vacation time, county records show. The paid time off is in addition to the nearly $100,000 the family raised on wepay.com and at rallies, which will be used to launch a criminal justice advocacy foundation in Trayvon's name.

The donated days are the latest in a mounting fortune in contributions that have amassed on both sides of the controversial case. With websites dedicated to the grieving parents of Trayvon Martin as well as for the man who killed him, and now even his attorney, funds gathered in the wake of the Feb. 26 tragedy promise to reach half a million dollars. Donors continue to reach into their pockets, even as each side criticizes the other's purpose and intent in seeking donations.The goal is to raise $1.5 million



Trayvon's family are not the only ones raising money.

Zimmerman, the man who shot their son, raised $204,000 in just three weeks with a PayPal account posted to a website. He spent about $50,000 before his defense lawyer ever learned of the fund's swelling balance, his attorney, Mark O'Mara, acknowledged.

O'Mara recently created a new fundraising site administered by a former IRS agent and registered with the Florida Division of Consumer Services. He told ABC News that he raised nearly $8,000 in the first few days the site was active.

"I'm not going to be unrealistic to the fact that everyone is seeking donations in relation to this case, including the Trayvon Martin family," O'Mara said at a recent press conference. "It seems as though we have become in this criminal justice system a system where we can ask other people to help us. That's what we are doing."

The fund now also includes the $150,000 balance transferred from the original PayPal account Zimmerman had set up.


www.standard.net...

Yes i have donated.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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331 pages of not just defending Zimmerman but offending Martin based on the idea that Martin hid somewhere and ambushed which was completely made up by posters in this thread.
If that is what his case is hanging on, he is sunk. Zimmerman already screwed up that line of defense and since court rarely allows stuff people on ATS made up out of thin air to be admitted as evidence this seems so sad. If I had to make up a reason to defend someone, the first thing I would do is question my need to defend them.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Autumnal
 


Like I said, as long as the crucify zimmerman crowd keeps making stuff up to try and make zimmerman look bad, turnabout is fair play. None of us were there, only two actual eye witnesses came forward. Both stated trayvon was on top beating zimmerman. Other than that, it's all speculation.

If they have some special witness that proved anything near what the prosecution claimed, I doubt the head investigator would have said what he did.....



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