Exclusive! First hand Witness: Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman Innocent Smoking Gun

reply to post by rebellender


I know you fail to see how the argument doesn't fit Zimmermans story.

If he thought he may have incurred such damaging head/brain trauma, why wouldn't he go to the ER, I mean we all know that you can die hours later....wouldn't he want to go get checked out to make sure he didn't have any early warning signs that may discover some head/brain damage? He was so concerned about that that he had to pull a gun out and shoot someone, and is using head trauma as his defense for doing that.....but yet he wasn't concerned enough to go the ER.....yeah that makes sense.

What makes sense and is logical is that if Zimmerman had any of those fears he would have been in an ambulance and the CCV footage we would have seen would have been of him on a stretcher and not CCV footage of him in handcuffs with, barely even slightly visible injuries, being escorted into a police station.

I just love how anything that contradicts what a rational, logical person would do you dismiss. The only conclusion I can bring from that type of attitude is that you are not thinking rationally or logically.

reply to post by rebellender


Not at all, point being Zimmerman was looking for trouble by following in the first place.. He is lucky this wasnt a real criminal or he would have most likely been the one shot.

Speculating about this case is a waste of time and will only enrage people from both sides of the argument. Why can't we just be patient and let the courts do their job? The truth cannot hide in a courtroom especially on such a huge case as this.

reply to post by Techtron


I agree Tech, i think the autopsy will say alot about what really happened.. Or as close as we will get with one side of the story.

reply to post by Resurected


The point wasn't that he looks like every other hip hop fan.. it's that he was full grown, not a kid as portrayed in the news. The photo was five or so years old. Doesn't matter what Zimmerman did in the past if he got knocked down by a sucker punch he would be dazed. Is it impossible that the teen was stronger than him?

What is the point you are trying to make?

reply to post by Techtron


The arguments started because people were trying to open people's eyes to the obvious media manipulation and bias in this case. To discuss trial by media. It is something that needs to stop. We are just trying to show people that shouldn't condemn a man they don't know without any evidence. People are ready to lock him up regardless to whether he may actually have been in real fear for his life and doing what he had to or not

reply to post by fbluth


What? By my own logic? You guys never know what you are talking about

That doesn't prove he should have gone to the ER. It's about not sustaining further injury, and fear that an injury like that might come if he didn't stop it. He stopped it and if he didn't feel he needed to go to the ER isn't relevant. He was likely very shook up and wanted to tell what happened and so he got treatment on site and went with the police. We don't know what he was thinking, but after he stopped the attack it was likely the person he just killed on his mind. By my logic he was stopping something like that from happening.

Logic is YOUR friend.. and maybe a little common sense too.

reply to post by Resurected


Again.. what is the point you are trying to make?
I guess you think he should have waited until he was more damaged (which would have happened if he didn't stop it) before he shot? The point is to stop it BEFORE your head is hamburger. Also you conveniently ignore the fact that he said the teen was going for his gun. If there was no damage he still may have been seconds from death.

reply to post by Resurected


Yeah.. Zimmerman stayed on the phone a bit after that was said and it sounds like he stopped pursuing shortly after, but if he stayed on the phone and the teen was running away they should have never met again. That is more evidence that Trayvon hid and waited on Zimmerman then confronted him. If the teen ran and Zimmerman lost sight of him, Trayvon should have made it home and never seen Zimmerman again. He was a football player that ran and lost Zimmerman, yet he died several minutes later 70 yards from his home. So almost he HAD to have stopped, hid, and jumped Zimmerman. He was a 20 or so second run from his front door. He had a headstart and had lost track over Zimmerman he had plenty of time to make the less than a football field run home.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Nope. We all know that head injuries can kill if not checked. He stated his head was beat on the concrete and was in fear of his life because of that......his head must not have been hit to hard if he was positive he didn't have anything wrong with him and skipped the ER. Remember Miss Richardson? She thought she was ok as well, turns out she wasn't. If Zimmerman had real fear, based on all we know, he would have gone to the ER. Zimmerman didn't have any fear of head injuries because he knew that he only had scratches...HE KNEW HE WAS LYING ABOUT BEING BEAT IN THE HEAD!!! HE KNEW PEOPLE LIKE YOU WOULD BELIEVE HIM!!! YOU HAVE FALLEN VICTIM TO GEORGE ZIMMERMANS DECEPTION AND MANIPULATIVE WAYS!!!!

We can go in circles, but I won't......I took a look at your pages and pages of posts. I am positive we can not have a constructive conversation based on your past interactions with members. I refuse to get sucked down your rabbit hole.

Good day.

reply to post by fbluth


The whole point of that type of head injury is that it is unexpected, as Richardson and many others have been caught by surprise by it. That is beside the point it is a weak deflection.

The fact of the matter is he was being beaten and had good reason to fear for his life. As you said, we can go in circles all day, but that doesn't change the fact that the man was justified in his fears. He didn't lie about being beaten there is more than enough proof. People like you are delusional. There are eye witnesses, police reports, photographic evidence, medics that treated his wounds, etc etc. You have been brainwashed by the media.

Your argument is pointless.

reply to post by fbluth


A few things to note from various posts -

Use of deadly force by civilians -
While pretty much every single state / territory / commonwealth in / of the US has laws that allow a person to defend themselves, those laws vary from state to state. Some states have SYG laws, others have castle doctrine. Some states allow a civilian to defend themselves when confronted while other states require a civilian to retreat from the situation if there is a safe path to do so.

In the latter states that require retreat - If the victim does not retreat and engages the aggressor, and there was a clear path of escape and the victim failed to take that path, the victim can actually be charged with a crime.

The only thing "standard" from state to state in this area is the guidelines the US Supreme Court has put into place over the years -
* - totality of circumstances
* - no review using 20/20 hindsight - the action must be viewed in the context they occurred in.
* - what would a reasonable person do criteria
* - For civilians force can only be met with equal force.
* - At any point during an encounter where the aggressors actions are neutralized (reduced threat), the victim is required to end their defense. If they continue that attack on the aggressor they can be charged.

Medical issues -
* - Unless a person is incapacitated they can refuse medical treatment. EMS checked over Zimmerman for immediate concerns. A concussion / brain damage does not always appear immediately. The symptoms can take some time to appear (there are a few scenarios where the patient does not get a choice - predominately those cases revolve around suicidal behavior / ideation's).

* - There are photos of Zimmerman's head that shows signs of trauma.

* - Being involved in a fight / confrontation that is physical and factoring in the use of deadly force and the death of the other person, its entirely possible Zimmerman could have had a severed arm and not even realized it. The human fight or fight response and the dump of adrenaline can and will mask injuries until the body starts to stabilize from the situation. Its at this point where a person starts to notice / feel pain etc.

* - In terms of how serious an injury is and its application in court requires an expert in that field who can explain to the court / jury the type of injury and what effect, if any, can occur that must be taken into consideration.

Physiological -
When the body goes into a high stress situation the body reacts (fight or flight).
A person can expect -
* - loss of fine motor control, resulting in gross motor control functions (survival at all cost override).
* - Auditory and visual exclusion (dos not immediately process verbal and experiences tunnel vision).
* - Time dilation - The entire encounter is either perceived as slow motion or fast forward.

* - Acceleration of heart and lung action
* - Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
* - Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
* - General effect on the sphincters of the body
* - Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
* - Liberation of nutrients (particularly fat and glucose) for muscular action
* - Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
* - Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
* - Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)

Memory -
Memory is affected during high stress situations. Its one of the main reasons that most law enforcement agencies will have an officer do an unofficial preliminary report on what occurred. After 2 to 3 days the brain can process the information from the encounter that was missed / suppressed because of the effect on the body.

After that time period we will go back and do an official report, adding in the information we did not remember at the time of the initial incident. Sights / sounds / pain / smells etc etc etc.

Finally - Not going to the Hospital does not automatically indicate a non life threatening situation or that Zimmerman is lying (although I have seen interviews that stated Zimmerman did go to the Hospital at some point after the incident. The focal points are the actions on both sides that resulted in death and not the actions of the person after the threat has subsided.

Ask yourself -
Is a broken arm considered a major life / death medical condition?
Is a broken finger / fingers a major life / death medical condition?

The answer is no, they are not.

However, if you add in those factors above to a high stress situation, they do become a life / death medical issue. If a person is being attacked and they have their arm / fingers broken, they are no longer able to fully defend themselves. Continually hitting those affected areas can incapacitate a person.

The same can be applied to a head injury.

That result is grounds for the use of deadly force since you now have an aggressor attacking an individual who is not fully able to defend himself.

People need to let the process work and they need to stop stating how Zimmerman should have acted. The fact of the matter is you cannot state for certainty what occurred or what was going through Zimmerman / Martins minds.

Ok then........
See ya around I guess.
Oops, looks like two posts popped up while I was refilling my water

I know you fail to see how the argument doesn't fit Zimmermans story.

reply to post by fbluth


Au contraire, mon frère,

I fail to see where you have any position at all and only want to argue with the position of others.

They call this fishing out of the back of a boat while pulling bait at different speeds, Trolling.

reply to post by rebellender


Aww thats cute.

Its a shame you couldn't catch anything with the worm you put on the hook.

Since you couldn't add anything to what I said you had to try and attack me......ive seen how the tactics work around here on this thread. Good for you for not letting the others down.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by solarjetman

 

Justice draws the line at reasonable doubt. Justice draws the line, that if the prosecution cannot prove guilt of committing a crime, then you must release the defendant. That's where I draw the line.

Prosecution needs to prove that it was George who started the physical confrontation, or it can only be deemed self defense. At least, that is how it is supposed to work.

I know that's how it's supposed to work, but my point is there seems to be a lot of subjectivity when it comes to reasonable doubt. Studies have shown that blacks get convicted more often and sentenced more harshly than whites for the same exact crime. I'm convinced that, whether it has to do with race or not (although I suspect it plays a role), people are unfairly favoring Zimmerman based on the same speculative leaps that they accuse Trayvon supporters of using. At the end of the day, we are ALL speculating, because guess what, none of us were actually personally there to witness the events firsthand, and so we ALL get our information from various media outlets, mainstream or underground.

Here are some double standard arguments I keep seeing coming up that make no sense:
1. Zimmerman has documented history of violence and aggression -> "Who cares about past behavior? His wife scratched him first / he was helping a friend against a cop, just being a good samaritan / etc etc"

and yet...
Trayvon's friend on twitter mentions something about swinging on a bus driver -> "Clearly he was a menacing thug with a propensity towards violence. Just look at his gold teeth."

and
Trayvon's documented history of potentially using/selling marijuana, owning a "burglary tool" and jewelry from someone else -> "Clearly all evidence points to a delinquent and a life going down the drain anyways, the thug deserved to be shot, etc etc"

2. Zimmerman follows Trayvon, talking about assholes getting away, to the point of getting out of the car, against dispatcher's recommendation, running after him. Fight and death ensues -> "Means nothing. Just because he did all of these things doesn't make him the aggressor, because this all happened BEFORE the fight-- that doesn't mean he started the fight itself because we don't know the timeline after that!"

and yet...
An anonymous witness says he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman -> "SMOKING GUN evidence that Trayvon actually started the fight (title of the thread itself), and as a matter of fact he waited in the bushes to jump Zimmerman."

3. According to Zimmerman's account, he shot Trayvon as he was getting his head bashed against the sidewalk -> "He shot him because he feared for his life. You can never say there was intent to kill Trayvon, because you never know what's going through people's heads especially in extremely intense environments. Don't judge Zimmerman's assessment of his head wound either-- how could you? You never know if it'll kill you!"

and yet...
Trayvon could've technically sprinted to his home in less than a minute, if you line up all of the timestamps of everything he would've been in the clear (as if he'd ever be able to calculate all of this in a matter of seconds)-> "What terrible judgement of him! Why didn't he run home? Why didn't he politely answer to Zimmerman in a respectful manner? Well it's obvious what was going through his head-- it must've been because he felt he needed to prove something / get street cred / whatever so he chose to wait around and beat Zimmerman up instead (and or wait and surprise attack him).

4. An unarmed teen is shot and killed -> "We don't know the facts"
and yet...
The shooter gets charged -> "What an outrage! I feel so sorry for the victim... poor George"

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. I'll say again that I am not taking sides, and am actually appalled by the actions of people on both sides of the fence (The "justice for Trayvon" assaults aren't doing anyone favors, for example). However, I really don't appreciate the rampant double standards everyone is throwing around (particularly in the pro Zimmerman camp), and I fear the resulting implications of this. I am really hoping this is not reflective of people's true colors and biases, ESPECIALLY people on a forward thinking and progressive website such as ATS.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. I'll say again that I am not taking sides, and am actually appalled by the actions of people on both sides of the fence (The "justice for Trayvon" assaults aren't doing anyone favors, for example). However, I really don't appreciate the rampant double standards everyone is throwing around (particularly in the pro Zimmerman camp), and I fear the resulting implications of this. I am really hoping this is not reflective of people's true colors and biases, ESPECIALLY people on a forward thinking and progressive website such as ATS.

reply to post by solarjetman


So in your opinion its a true tragedy of Human Genocide, for which we lap it up like its the pages of The National Enquirer?

Originally posted by fbluth
reply to post by rebellender

 

I know you fail to see how the argument doesn't fit Zimmermans story.

If he thought he may have incurred such damaging head/brain trauma, why wouldn't he go to the ER, I mean we all know that you can die hours later....wouldn't he want to go get checked out to make sure he didn't have any early warning signs that may discover some head/brain damage? He was so concerned about that that he had to pull a gun out and shoot someone, and is using head trauma as his defense for doing that.....but yet he wasn't concerned enough to go the ER.....yeah that makes sense.

What makes sense and is logical is that if Zimmerman had any of those fears he would have been in an ambulance and the CCV footage we would have seen would have been of him on a stretcher and not CCV footage of him in handcuffs with, barely even slightly visible injuries, being escorted into a police station.

I just love how anything that contradicts what a rational, logical person would do you dismiss. The only conclusion I can bring from that type of attitude is that you are not thinking rationally or logically.

So at what point does one determine the severity of the injury being inflicted on themselves? How many times would YOU let someone smash your head into the pavement, before you thought they were trying to kill you? Did Zimmerman need to see his brains on the concrete before he should have acted? How much damage does someone need to suffer before they can defend themselves?

The whole hospital thing is moot, in my opinion. He shot Treyvon BEFORE he could inflict fatal injury.

reply to post by AngryAlien


Well all of that rest on whether or not you believe Zimmermans account.

I don't. His scratches prove nothing, Ive not seen any pics or records of a broken nose. And if even if his nose was broke....that doesn't prove anything at all. It prove he had a scratch.........

But like I said, I don't believe not one Zimmerman has said. I take that back, I believe one word he said.......'Are you following him'.........................'Yeah' ......... that's the one word I believe.