The Truth About Matter and the Material World

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I thought you said:
'So, yes, the instant of now is the only material thing that exists'.
Listen to what Alan Watts says:
youtu.be...

edit on 27-3-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Material...yes, but material is not the only thing that is physically existent.

Information physically exists, and that's the point.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by NorEaster

 

But isn't matter just a slowed down speed of energy? What if this world is also mental / informational, it is just a slowed down version of what we call "source" or "the realm". Is it possible to come back here from the realm of information?

A realm is not a place. It's common contextual association, and while that's not the easiest concept to grasp, grasping it is critical to being able to understand the true nature of physical existence. Information exists and is physical, but it exists within a realm that is extremely incompatible with the material realm - even though the informational realm directly affects the material realm. The net reality of this difficult to explain relationship that exists between these two realms - incidentally, the only two realms that actually exist within any full reality confine - is that material existence brings the informational realm into physical existence while the informational realm (by contextual default) manages the progressive development of the material realm. The term is symbiosis, and this relationship between these two realms is the epitome of what symbiosis is all about.

The thing is that while it's not readily apparent to the human perception (as to how this relationship works) it works seamlessly and efficiently, and when you take everything apart to the sub-structural level, you realize that its the only way it can work. Otherwise, you're inventing Gods and impossible sources of energy and all kinds of indefensible existential contraptions to just explain even the most simple developments. Either that, or you're stuck claiming that nothing - not even your own mind - actually exists. Maybe that plays here as enlightened wisdom, but it's not anything other than a flippant cop-out.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Perception tells us we're material, but we're not. We're activity that's in perfect sync with the rate of our own perception generation. I call us matrixed event trajectories. Matrixed layers of linear and orbital trajectories that combine to form the overall linear event trajectory that is our own event trajectory of physical existence - our life span. And literally everything that is physical is also a composition in the same exact manner. We see ourselves as solid, so we see it all as solid. And it is because we're perceiving in sync with all of it.

And that's what material existence is. It's structured action.

Sounds like a solid theory (excuse the pun).

A couple questions if you find time:

• In your opinion, if perception masks what the physical world really is, should we reject sensory experience as the path to an understanding of the universe and find more abstract conclusions?

Yeah, I think that experience alone can't ever provide the human mind with what it needs when it's trying to determine the nature of physical reality. Our universe is a ridiculously small sample of what exists as physical within our own full reality confine. That said, you have to establish what's obviously dependable and then scale it up and down from there. Not much is dependable and consistent but enough is to make it possible to, at least, determine what isn't possible. That's a pretty good start actually. Focusing on basic and set logic is a responsible way to start.

• Would it be possible that this perception generation rate—like the body—could malfunction and result in a distortion in perception of the material world? If not, would we have to assume that perception isn't a natural occurrence of the body, but something separate and possibly eternal?

Perception is human conscious awareness, and is definitely produced by the corporeal brain, so you can't really say that it's not a natural occurrence of the body. It is, but physically it's separate from the body once it emerges. Like music is separate from the instrument once it is brought into existence by the instrument itself. I'm really glad that the very real analogy of the relationship between music and the instrument exists, because it makes conceptualizing this reality a little easier.

Thanks for the enjoyable read.

Thanks.

reply to post by NorEaster


I don't understand your use of the word "reality"

Reality is Actual. And a holographic perception of a reflection is not actual. Maybe in the context of a fantasy. Not suggesting that what you are dismantling is not logical. It is. But it is not Real in the context of Truth.

Whatever you perceive with your mind, whatever you label is not Truth. But again, your description and parable of the apparent non-reality we seemingly perceive is accurate. But.. we are not talking about Reality in the context of Truth.

It's useful to point out what is not Real. It's also easy when you admit none of it is. No one can prove Truth. Truth is it's own proof. Can a person prove themselves to their reflection in a mirror? And yet we pretend Truth itself will prove itself to what is obviously not real. We have no better tools because there are none. matter, information, energy, humans.. all holographic reflections of Reality.

"But we are conscious! We are something! We can wake up! We can know the Truth!" - the essence of our denial.

Try and prove Truth outside of Reality. That is the nature of this manifestation of non-reality. Denial. We are that by-product. And it does not exist in Reality. Truth is known to itself eternally.

Just remind yourself we are not God waking up or realizing ourselves into Reality. Or don't.. doesn't 'matter'.

Originally posted by NorEaster
Perception is human conscious awareness, and is definitely produced by the corporeal brain, so you can't really say that it's not a natural occurrence of the body. It is, but physically it's separate from the body once it emerges. Like music is separate from the instrument once it is brought into existence by the instrument itself. I'm really glad that the very real analogy of the relationship between music and the instrument exists, because it makes conceptualizing this reality a little easier.

In this case, isn't information and potential energy the same thing? If the instrument exists, it has the potential of playing the music, so it is just "potential" that "could" manifest into reality through the instrumental.

It reminds me of the zero-point field where in the "void" there is still a wave of potential particles...

Energy itself cannot be measured by we can see its effects as it is manifested through waveforms in its transference...

Our brains produce consciousness and thoughts through the bio-electric waveforms transferred from one neuron to another. But the "energy" in the waveform is not physical but the waveforms are , but we know the energy exists because we can see its effects.

Maybe "information" is just another word for "energy", what do you think? You do say that the information realm is incompatible with the material, and energy is a scalar field/ quantity. It seems like it fits the description perfectly.

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I don't understand your use of the word "reality"

Reality is Actual. And a holographic perception of a reflection is not actual. Maybe in the context of a fantasy. Not suggesting that what you are dismantling is not logical. It is. But it is not Real in the context of Truth.

I'm referring to physical reality. Stuff that actually exists. Perception exists. I'm not playing semantics games here. I'm describing actual things that physically exist.

Whatever you perceive with your mind, whatever you label is not Truth. But again, your description and parable of the apparent non-reality we seemingly perceive is accurate. But.. we are not talking about Reality in the context of Truth.

Maybe you're being philosophical, but that doesn't mean that I am. I'm not being philosophical at all, and this thread is not at all about philosophy. I think you've wandered into the wrong discussion here.

It's useful to point out what is not Real. It's also easy when you admit none of it is. No one can prove Truth. Truth is it's own proof. Can a person prove themselves to their reflection in a mirror? And yet we pretend Truth itself will prove itself to what is obviously not real. We have no better tools because there are none. matter, information, energy, humans.. all holographic reflections of Reality.

"But we are conscious! We are something! We can wake up! We can know the Truth!" - the essence of our denial.

Try and prove Truth outside of Reality. That is the nature of this manifestation of non-reality. Denial. We are that by-product. And it does not exist in Reality. Truth is known to itself eternally.

Just remind yourself we are not God waking up or realizing ourselves into Reality. Or don't.. doesn't 'matter'.

edit on 28-3-2012 by rwfresh because: (no reason given)

Like I said, you're lost in a completely incompatible discussion here. You're welcome to believe what you want to, but your belief system isn't what's being discussed in this thread. Eastern philosophy has its own environment of examination, and while it's wonderful and fulfilling and all that, this thread is about material existence. Not about the esoteric search for ways of defining the battle between truth and denial.

You've just wandered into a formal black-tie dinner wearing a tan linen suit and deck shoes.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by NorEaster
Perception is human conscious awareness, and is definitely produced by the corporeal brain, so you can't really say that it's not a natural occurrence of the body. It is, but physically it's separate from the body once it emerges. Like music is separate from the instrument once it is brought into existence by the instrument itself. I'm really glad that the very real analogy of the relationship between music and the instrument exists, because it makes conceptualizing this reality a little easier.

In this case, isn't information and potential energy the same thing? If the instrument exists, it has the potential of playing the music, so it is just "potential" that "could" manifest into reality through the instrumental.

Not at all. Energy is material in nature. Keep in mind that what you have, and all you have, when you reduce the whole of physical existence to its indivisible unitary basis, are two completely dissimilar units - the Event and Information. I explain this earlier in this thread, so I won't bore you with it here. This means that whatever isn't information is a progressive manifestation of event-centric physical development, and energy definitely is event based (an electron is the basis of both electrical and magnetic energy), so it stands to simple logical reason and direct inference, that all forms of energy are event-based. The event unit is the basis of all material existence.

It reminds me of the zero-point field where in the "void" there is still a wave of potential particles...

Energy itself cannot be measured by we can see its effects as it is manifested through waveforms in its transference...

The flow of electrons is easily measured. The potential for electron flow is easily measured. We design all kinds of dependable machines with electrical energy measurements as integral to these designs. I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't survive immediate scrutiny.

Our brains produce consciousness and thoughts through the bio-electric waveforms transferred from one neuron to another. But the "energy" in the waveform is not physical but the waveforms are , but we know the energy exists because we can see its effects.

Information is what manages material progressive development, and any physicist will agree with me on this. The brain's actual product itself is information that immediately acts in survival support of the corporeal system (brain and/or body) in the same way that DNA directives act in immediate survival support of much simpler living systems (like trees and blades of grass and that sort of thing). The brain exists due to the complexity of the corporeal system that employs it. Layers of assembly and sub-assembly require a central information management system or the organizational whole will fail. It's as simple as that.

Maybe "information" is just another word for "energy", what do you think? You do say that the information realm is incompatible with the material, and energy is a scalar field/ quantity. It seems like it fits the description perfectly.

edit on 29-3-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

I hope that my brief explanation will help you to see that information is not just another word of energy. Energy is material in nature, and information manages the progressive development and manifestation of energy, just like it does for all versions of material existence. Anything that can be reduced to particle is material existence. Nuclear energy can be reduced to particle. Magnetic energy can be reduced to electrons. Microwave can be reduced to particle. Of course, electricity can be reduced to the chain reaction of electrons.

Information affects the material world, and we can perceive that effect when it happens. That means that when we perceive information-centric indications, what we're actually perceiving is the direct impact of information on material existence. This impact can be extremely direct, depending on the information source itself. Like when the wind creates a tornado funnel. The funnel that we see is not the wind itself, but the crap that the wind has gathered in suspension due to the direct impact it has on the stuff we can see. It's kind of like that.

Information is impossible to perceive from the material realm, and for right now, you and I are stuck perceiving things from this material realm. There are instances when the informational realm can reveal itself via direct impact - including triggering and implanting images within our brains (auditory, visual, olfactory, tactile, and many blends of all of these) - but you can't see information with your eyes, touch it with your fingers, smell it with your nose, or hear it with your ears. Energy, on the other hand, is definitely tangible within the material realm, and that's the difference between what's informational and energy.

Originally posted by NorEaster

I'm referring to physical reality. Stuff that actually exists. Perception exists. I'm not playing semantics games here. I'm describing actual things that physically exist.

You are playing semantics. You are discussing the nature of matter. Claiming it's definition of being physical, made of substance is not accurate. maybe you should look up the word "semantic". Maybe i missed something. That's why i asked the question. "Physical reality" is a non sequitur so attempting to base any insight or communicate anything from that fallacy is doomed to failure. But we all do it..

Maybe you're being philosophical, but that doesn't mean that I am. I'm not being philosophical at all, and this thread is not at all about philosophy. I think you've wandered into the wrong discussion here.

I'm pretty sure i read the OP. You can claim all the scientific proof you want. I don't have to try hard to declare your ideas "philosophical". That's what they are. Not saying they anymore or less wrong than anything else. But your use of the word "reality" is wrong which makes the rest of your ideas confusing. Reality has nothing to do with the physical/energetic/perceivable existence/universe(s).. it's in contrast to it. Maybe some of those philosophical ideas you've read and heard about might make more sense with that in mind.

Like I said, you're lost in a completely incompatible discussion here. You're welcome to believe what you want to, but your belief system isn't what's being discussed in this thread. Eastern philosophy has its own environment of examination, and while it's wonderful and fulfilling and all that, this thread is about material existence. Not about the esoteric search for ways of defining the battle between truth and denial.

You've just wandered into a formal black-tie dinner wearing a tan linen suit and deck shoes.

Hmm no. I've wondered into a an empty room with a naked person admiring their invisible fantasy black-tie formal wear in a holographic mirror.

My question is no more philosophical than your ideas. Or they are.. whatever. Peace!

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I don't understand your use of the word "reality"

Reality is Actual. And a holographic perception of a reflection is not actual. Maybe in the context of a fantasy. Not suggesting that what you are dismantling is not logical. It is. But it is not Real in the context of Truth.

Whatever you perceive with your mind, whatever you label is not Truth. But again, your description and parable of the apparent non-reality we seemingly perceive is accurate. But.. we are not talking about Reality in the context of Truth.

It's useful to point out what is not Real. It's also easy when you admit none of it is. No one can prove Truth. Truth is it's own proof. Can a person prove themselves to their reflection in a mirror? And yet we pretend Truth itself will prove itself to what is obviously not real. We have no better tools because there are none. matter, information, energy, humans.. all holographic reflections of Reality.

"But we are conscious! We are something! We can wake up! We can know the Truth!" - the essence of our denial.

Try and prove Truth outside of Reality. That is the nature of this manifestation of non-reality. Denial. We are that by-product. And it does not exist in Reality. Truth is known to itself eternally.

Just remind yourself we are not God waking up or realizing ourselves into Reality. Or don't.. doesn't 'matter'.

edit on 28-3-2012 by rwfresh because: (no reason given)

Follow along, if you will...

Reality: quantity or state of being real, a mathematically real quantity
Quantity: the subject of a mathematical operation measurable in increasing or decreasing magnitude

A hologram is a 3-dimensional 'image' reproduced from a pattern (a mathematical structure in this case).

The hologram is a product of waste in the form of heat (radiation). Heat happens to be a demodulator plus can be applied via pressure to form density. Hence, we have the substance known as matter.

In our Universe we find an element of energy and the continuous cycle of consciousness it derives from.

The only illusion is what you fail to perceive. Truth is the system at play... And btw, we never fall asleep.

Originally posted by Americanist

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I don't understand your use of the word "reality"

Reality is Actual. And a holographic perception of a reflection is not actual. Maybe in the context of a fantasy. Not suggesting that what you are dismantling is not logical. It is. But it is not Real in the context of Truth.

Whatever you perceive with your mind, whatever you label is not Truth. But again, your description and parable of the apparent non-reality we seemingly perceive is accurate. But.. we are not talking about Reality in the context of Truth.

It's useful to point out what is not Real. It's also easy when you admit none of it is. No one can prove Truth. Truth is it's own proof. Can a person prove themselves to their reflection in a mirror? And yet we pretend Truth itself will prove itself to what is obviously not real. We have no better tools because there are none. matter, information, energy, humans.. all holographic reflections of Reality.

"But we are conscious! We are something! We can wake up! We can know the Truth!" - the essence of our denial.

Try and prove Truth outside of Reality. That is the nature of this manifestation of non-reality. Denial. We are that by-product. And it does not exist in Reality. Truth is known to itself eternally.

Just remind yourself we are not God waking up or realizing ourselves into Reality. Or don't.. doesn't 'matter'.

edit on 28-3-2012 by rwfresh because: (no reason given)

Follow along, if you will...

Reality: quantity or state of being real, a mathematically real quantity
Quantity: the subject of a mathematical operation measurable in increasing or decreasing magnitude

A hologram is a 3-dimensional 'image' reproduced from a pattern (a mathematical structure in this case).

The hologram is a product of waste in the form of heat (radiation). Heat happens to be a demodulator plus can be applied via pressure to form density. Hence, we have the substance known as matter.

In our Universe we find an element of energy and the continuous cycle of consciousness it derives from.

The only illusion is what you fail to perceive. Truth is the system at play... And btw, we never fall asleep.

Reality: state of things as they actually exist or quality or state of being real

So what is Actual outside of Reality/Truth? nothing.

What you/me/everyone fails to perceive is the only thing that is Real. Only real things can perceive reality. Can a reflection know it's reflector?

Our (non)reality is a reflection of a hologram. It's not even the hologram.

You are right. We never fall asleep because that would imply we were awake or in any other actual state which we aren't.

"I think therefore I AM"

reply to post by rwfresh


Please clarify what you're saying. Is it your level of understanding we come here with nothing... That in essence we are nothingness?

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Please clarify what you're saying. Is it your level of understanding we come here with nothing... That in essence we are nothingness?

I wish i could clarify it. I am totally incapable. I want to express and share the Truth but if i am anything i am delusional. I am in good company though.

Nothing does not exist outside of Reality. And nothing does not exist in Reality. Nothing does not exist. It is not actual. Saying we are nothing is an accurate lie

What else is not actual? Time and every non thing that follows it's presumption. Matter, energy, information, consciousness, experience. "everything" we deny into non-existance.

I guess the science police will chalk it up to philosophical mumbo jumbo. But i am attracted to these threads and discussions of matter and other non-real things that require being framed in a misunderstanding of reality. It's ironic.

Discovering the lack of substance of anything is not some exercise in honesty or expression of Truth. Truth is pre-existantly fulfilled eternally already and forever. But we do like to keep busy in non-reality uncovering things for the future non existent generations we perceive will benefit from our DEEP investigation hahaha. The ultimate unacknowledged goal seems to be eternal distraction and denial.

What do i know? A lot about nothing. I want to experience something actual. Even imagine it.. but i am as hopeless as a legless marathon runner without an imagination. Self-deprecating narcissism to the max. I am nothing so everything else is also nothing hahaha awesome. As true as anything in non-reality.. not very.

I like matter to be solid, it wouldn't be fun otherwise.

reply to post by rwfresh


Based on your own observations what have you noticed about nature in general? What have you not noticed so far?

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Grifter81
So do you think us humans are the be all and end all? Are we existance?

No. I don't believe that I suggested it either. We are the ones who define things for ourselves. We translate what we perceive for each other. We invented the concept of the particle as being solid material, so we smash particles to find out what they're made of. Particles are matrixed event trajectories, and all material existence is composed of particles. Pretty simple actually.

This is sort of true but reality is actually like a data stream. Our five senses are bombarded with digital signals which are then translated by our brains into visuals, tastes, smells, feels, etc.. But the original data was not created inside your own head, it was fed to you from an outside source. All of our human experience including matter originates in a digital coded signal which our minds translate into physical reality.

There seems to be two things going on.
The first and most obvious is the 'material world'. The material world is what we see, hear, taste, touch and smell. It is what is known by us. The material world is full of 'things', it is the content.
The second 'thing' is not so obvious because it cannot be seen, heard, tasted or touched. It is the seer and knower of the 'things'. The 'things' cannot appear without a knowing presence.
The 'things' are always changing and are very diverse. But the seer and knower of the 'things' never changes, it is always you that is present, while the things (content of life) constantly change.
What is seeing through your eyes sees the screen before it, it also sees fingers on a keyboard or mouse, it may be aware of thoughts, and other noise - all of this is 'things'. Any 'thing' (material) is an appearance. That appearance has to appear on/in/as you.
Is it possible to watch a tv program without there being a screen present prior to the image appearing?


To clarify: youtu.be...

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Based on your own observations what have you noticed about nature in general? What have you not noticed so far?

Noticed? From the context of delusion? All kinds of perplexing, confounding, mysterious and awesome things. I haven't noticed anything eternal or real. Despite any amount of effort or lack of effort. Nothing works.. still in time.

The most interesting have been the experiences of oneness, completeness, temporal glimpses of 'eternity'. But i can't say any of them were "Real" in the true sense of the word. My observations are false. Hallucinations.

Time is a hallucination rooted in denial of what is Real. Every non thing is a result of this primary delusion. The grand delusion of consciousness is the belief that: if the hallucination is overcome through honesty we might exist in Reality.

"If i can let go of my delusion what will remain is Real"

"If i have a powerful enough microscope i will see the smallest particle"

"Truth can be proven, thereby expressed in non-reality by modelling the holographic pattern with a math proof/equation (pattern = truth)"

I catch glimpses of realizations of self as being more true than what is perceived. Mind bending delusion.

Do you believe this non-reality is part of reality and likely eternal despite the illusion of time, matter etc? Is the "reality at play" process eternal? Is this reality or part of reality?

reply to post by rwfresh


There is something real and eternal but it is not a 'thing'. If it is a 'thing' then it is not it, that's why it is so hard to see. It is here presently as presence and is always present and when you do 'find' it you will be amazed.
It is the quiet that contains everything.

This short video might beable to help it be known.
youtu.be...

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

There is something real and eternal but it is not a 'thing'. If it is a 'thing' then it is not it, that's why it is so hard to see. It is here presently as presence and is always present and when you do 'find' it you will be amazed.
It is the quiet that contains everything.

This short video might beable to help it be known.
youtu.be...

'There is something real and eternal but it is not a 'thing'.' - well than i guess calling it 'someTHING' is inaccurate as well. We agree

There is something real and eternal. No thing does NOT exist inside or outside of Reality. Please excuse my delusion when i say Truth which is Reality is the only thing that actually exists.

I am suggesting that if Truth were to pierce this non-reality we wouldn't be talking about it or watching videos about it. I see you not experiencing/admitting it, that is proof enough i am incapable of it as well. We say "I AM experiencing Truth, you just don't know it". Inconsequential delusion.

When people practice experiencing what is Real through meditation or quietness etc. that is great and can lead to absolutely amazing experiences of subjective objectivity beyond anything i can or will ever imagine. But that isn't saying much because who am I? I would only be impressed with experiencing Truth in the context of non-Reality. For example: someone force-ably removing my denial eternally and me knowing it. that would be a trick.

Why is it wrong to believe Truth can overcome my denial? Because my denial doesn't exist. I don't exist. There is no thing for Truth to overcome. If i overcome my denial what is left? The only thing that is already there eternally. The whole process is an illusion born of denial, without substance. It is not actual.

I like nice people but don't you find Satsang sessions to be extremely ironic?

reply to post by rwfresh


What is real is not an experience. It is not some 'thing' that comes and goes. When the real is known there is real peace and joy (words cannot begin to describe what it is).