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"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon." - Obama. What the MSM isn't telling you.

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posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 


It's not what I say that matters...what matters is what REALLY happened..and how the law deals with what REALLY happens. Not what people wish or think happened.




posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 


Following someone is not illegal....and he has a concealed carry permit...again those pesky laws.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by timetothink
 



Originally posted by timetothink

in a private gated community the residents pay into a communal fund for perks, safety and privacy..it is considered theirs.....but even if he wasn't on his front lawn, he has the right to defend himself.
[color=CFB972]You would think that one of those perks would be that if a relative is at your house, they should be able to walk freely without being chased by a civilian with a gun.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 


Again those pesky rules...many of the gated communities do not allow that..

my dad lives in one in Fl and he has to be with me at all times, people will ask you who you are what you are doing there, who are you visiting...THAT is what you pay...safety. I don't know about this one....but the kid was a stranger and Zimmerman had the right to ask who he was....his father is not a resident either from what I see.

Not liking the rules or the law doesn't mean they are wrong.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by timetothink
 


What law or laws was this kid violating before he was shot to death by a grown man?

Sick.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by popsmayhem
Say a cop is following you, checking you out
as you walk down the road, the cop then
comes over to you and says hey what are you doing?
Go swing on that cop, get on top of him and start
pounding his face in and see how fast he shoots you.
Even if the cop hit you first you better just stand down
because if you then get on top of him and start pounding
his face in he will and has every right to shoot you then in self defense
in fear for his life...


Really now?? There are several problems with what you just said here.

First off, if I am being followed by a cop he may just be doing his job. He may have found me suspicious, I may even match the description of someone who he is looking for. There is however a big difference between being followed by a cop in uniform and a private citizen. You are trying to compare apples to cucumbers and it is just not going to work. Now if this is a plain clothes cop, well my reaction would be very different.

Now let us say I do take a cop down and pound his face. Yes, he would be well within his rights to defend himself from my attack, but then you say something very very wrong here.

Even if the cop hit you first you better just stand down

This is where you are dead wrong. The LAW is very clear on this point. You, as a private citizen, have the right to defend yourself from a Police Officer who is acting unlawfully. This point was highlighted by the Kelly Thomas case. The following video is the press conference of the Orange County District Attorney. Listen carefully when he says, "You have a right to defend yourself against Police". Also listen carefully to how he explains a charge of Involuntary Manslaughter against Officer Ramos for creating the circumstances that lead to the death of Kelly Thomas, which is the same argument I am making against Zimmerman. That part, you can hear for yourself beginning at 3:30 in the press conference.


So legally speaking, if a cop hits you first, you have the right to defend yourself. The case law on this point is very clear. The point you seem to miss is that self defense does not apply if you have created the situation that you are protecting yourself from. So you can continue to make this absurd claim as much as you like, the LAW says differently.

[quote[Does not matter who striked the first blow
Well yes it does. It does matter in a self defense case. If I swing on you first, I am NOT defending myself. I am attacking.


we know treyvon attacked zimmerman

Really? How do we know this? Show me ONE witness who claims that Martin attacked Zimmerman. There is not one. No one saw what started the physical confrontation. The only witnesses who have come forward saw the fight AFTER it had started. So we have witnesses who can tell us who was winning the fight, but no one who saw WHO actually started the fight.


zimmerman did not need to get into a fist fight
with treyvon zimmerman had a gun.

I agree, Zimmerman did not need to get into a fight. Zimmerman did not need to approach Martin. He CHOOSE to do so, against the advice of a 911 Operator who told him not to and this choice set in motion the chain of events which lead to the death of Martin. That is the legal definition of Involuntary manslaughter. What you think about it is irrelevant, this is what the law says.


Zimmerman would of just shot him,

You do not know this. This is opinion. Do not make the mistake of confusing opinion with fact.


With the evidence that treyvon was on top
of zimmerman beating him up gives zimmerman
everyright to use deadly force no matter who hit first.


That is not true at all. The law regarding deadly force is very clear on this issue. There are certain requirements that must be met in order to legally use deadly force. Maybe you should research that.

Fact is, it was Zimmerman who created a situation where it was Martin who had a reasonable fear for his life. He is being followed by a Stranger. He attempted to run from this stranger. The stranger follows him. It was Zimmerman who acted carelessly, recklessly, and negligently which created the situation which placed Martin's life in jeopardy. Any reasonable person under these circumstances would have reason to be fearful for their personal safety.

After the fight starts we hear cries of help. Do you notice what you dont hear? You don't hear Zimmerman at any point in time identifying himself. This is key. According to Zimmerman, Martin even "checked him out" and still Zimmerman does not identify himself. So in Martin's perspective, Zimmerman is nothing more than a stranger who is following him. Martin had no intention of making contact or conversation with Zimmerman. He ran from him. It was Zimmerman who made the contact with Martin, and still never identified himself.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Nathwa
reply to post by ker2010
 


Exactly. If I was in Zimmerman's position, I would have just pushed the kid off and escaped. Contact the police and let them deal with it. I would not feel threatened by some 140 lb 17 year old.


Ummm did you miss the part where Zimmerman DID contact Police BEFORE making contact with Martin? Listen to Zimmerman's 911 call. He is watching Martin. He calls Police. He follows Martin. The 911 Operator asked him NOT to follow Martin.

The death of Martin takes place AFTER Zimmerman's 911 call.

So are you suggesting that you would have pushed Martin off of you, then contacting police a second time to tell them that you did not listen to them the first time and now the guy you were following just assaulted you?



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by Chalupas
And, well...I dont think that guy was trying to buy any ferns when he said "he needa plant".


Who bleepin' cares if he smokes [insert substance here] or not!

I know plenty of people (many of which are conservative Libertarians) who smoke it. I have hippie friends who do. And yes, black friends as well (they wear hoodies sometimes, occasionally smoke and sure as hell don't break into people's homes).

Am I the only one who sees your line of reasoning irrelevant? /boggle



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by ker2010
 


I dont care what his "size" was....

and yes, ive been in plenty of fights, enough to know that it doesnt mater what size you are, if youre intent on hurting someone youre going to do it.....

you keep stating "facts"

When you have no other facts to go on then anyone else........

how bout YOU stop making up useless crap to defend someone who very well could have been a delinquent who got caught doing something and retaliated...........

wait for all the facts, and stop lashing out


You know what? You're right. I admit that. You are completely correct when you say that Martin could have been a delinquent.

But there is one problem with your statement.

He also could NOT have been a delinquent.

Zimmerman did not wait to find out.

See the problem here?

Zimmerman did not wait to find out and his actions directly lead to the death of 17 year old kid armed with Skittles and Iced Tea.

This is why we have laws like involuntary manslaughter. This is why deadly force is clearly defined by the rule of law. In a civilized society that is held together by the rule of law, you can not have people acting on suspicion, paranoia, gut feelings, or assumptions with zero consequence to their own actions.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by Chalupas
 


Caught you!!! Again!


--Zimmerman looses him, and steps out of his car to have a better look around


This is another bold faced lie and you are again, changing the version of events for your own agenda. Not only changing the version of events, but you are also changing what you said earlier in this thread.

Wasn't it you around page 4-5-6 of this thread that claimed Zimmerman only stepped out of his truck to find out what street he was on? Which by the way, is correct. This is Zimmerman's account of events to Police.

On the night of the shooting, Feb. 26, 2012, Zimmerman told police he had exited his truck to check the name of the street he was on when the teen took him by surprise and jumped him from behind. He claimed to have shot at Trayvon with his licensed semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life. Continue reading on Examiner.com Anonymous witness says Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman; friends dispute claim - National Crime | Examiner.com www.examiner.com...

SOURCE

Now that we know for a FACT that Zimmerman, by his own words, stepped out of his truck to "see what street he was on" we have a few problems.

#1. The girlfriend. You can not disregard her because it is CONFIRMED by the phone records which was attained by Law Enforcement and the Media, she was on the phone with Martin. If there was a converstions between Martin and Zimmerman, this means Zimmerman was not jumped from behind. This means Zimmerman did not get out of his truck to see what street he was on. This one fact brings up a lot of questions which pokes massive holes in Zimmerman's account of what happened.

#2. We have a man who has for years been patrolling his own streets. Over 45 phone calls to 911 over a course of years. He knows his area. He knows his neighbors. He knows who belongs in his neighborhood and who does not. Now we are expected to believe that he doesn't know the street names of this same gated community? Sorry but that is a little hard to swallow.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by illuminatislave
reply to post by timetothink
 


What law or laws was this kid violating before he was shot to death by a grown man?

Sick.

What law was zimmerman violating when he went to
see what was going on with treyvon, what gave
trayvon the right to smash zimmermans face in
just for seeing what street he was down.
Treyvon had no right to ambush zimmerman.
A man with a gun who intent is
to kill someone aint getting into
no fist fight. He is going to shoot you
dead without you ever getting a scratch..

If zimmermans whole purpose as you guys put
it was to kill himself a black boy, he would of never called 911
he would of never fist fought with treyvon he would of never
let treyvon get close enough to hit him. He would of just shot him..
Which leads me to believe as per say the eye witness testimony
of seeing treyvon on top of zimmerman that zimmerman was ambushed
was in fear for his life and shot treyvon after treyvon was smashing
his face in.
Looking at someone, walking behind someone, talking to someone is not an act
of agression, which I believe pissed treyvon off that this guy was checking him out
treyvon thought he would be smart and a bad ass and beat/bully bruise zimmerman up
well treyvon should of never even gotten on top of zimmerman.
The fact treyvon was on top of zimmerman at all making zimmerman fear for his life
is enough to defend yourself against someone who is trying to kill you..

K thanks



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by Chalupas
 


i was going to flag this

then i saw it had 69 flags so ya know



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 


And your whole arrogant way of posting is annoying.

Anything one decides to take on can be considered a job, from sweeping the garage to watching the neighborhood at the request of people in the fated community.

You claim GZ is guilty for exercising his own rights to watch over his neighborhood? You are wrong.

If had TM simply continued on his way to his father's girlfriends house instead of confronting GZ about watching him, he would still be alive. We know from his girlfriends testimony, that TM confronted GZ.

Or TM could have done the intelligent thing, told GZ that we was staying at a friends house, and returning to that place.

We know from eye witness accounts that the shooting took place during a physical altercation, in which TM was on top of GZ, which means GZ was acting in self defense, unless it can be shown that GZ started the physical altercation.

Twist the story all you want, but this is what it comes down to.

Oh, and it is not you call to determine what GZ was supposed to do, or whether or not he could carry a gun.


edit on 25-3-2012 by poet1b because: add last line



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 



Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, with his gun, in order to pursue a stranger, and for no reason other than the fact that Trayvon looked suspicious.


Zimmerman got out of his vehicle with his gun as he has a right to do. There is no evidence that GZ intended to do anything but watch TM.

TM looking suspicious is all the reason that GZ needed.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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" 46 emergency calls were made by Zimmerman over the past six years that document a man vigilant about keeping his neighborhood safe and orderly. The calls include complaints about unruly people at the pool, potholes, dumped trash, and kids playing in the street. In recent months, as the neighborhood saw an uptick in crime, including burglaries and a shooting, Zimmerman's calls had focused on specific suspects, the majority of them young black men."

Seems like someone obsessive over things to the extent that he is calling 911 about trash and potholes. He has obessively taken a protective ownership role over his neighborhood......that is where the problem is. His obsession has created in his mind the belief that if anyone is in the neighborhood, he should know the person. And if he doesn't, then the person must be up to no good. The young man had a hoody on and he didn't recognize him, so Zimmerman automatically felt it was his responsibility to confront him. It was not his responsibility to confront or follow this young man. Zimmerman is not a cop but in his delusional mind he thought as such..
edit on 25-3-2012 by ker2010 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by MrWendal

Originally posted by Nathwa
reply to post by ker2010
 


Exactly. If I was in Zimmerman's position, I would have just pushed the kid off and escaped. Contact the police and let them deal with it. I would not feel threatened by some 140 lb 17 year old.


Ummm did you miss the part where Zimmerman DID contact Police BEFORE making contact with Martin? Listen to Zimmerman's 911 call. He is watching Martin. He calls Police. He follows Martin. The 911 Operator asked him NOT to follow Martin.

The death of Martin takes place AFTER Zimmerman's 911 call.

So are you suggesting that you would have pushed Martin off of you, then contacting police a second time to tell them that you did not listen to them the first time and now the guy you were following just assaulted you?


I did miss that part, I apologize for the oversight, and for my lapse in logic. However, at the heart of what I am trying to say is that I would have used lethal force only as a last resort, if my own life was at stake.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by MrWendal
 



I agree, Zimmerman did not need to get into a fight. Zimmerman did not need to approach Martin. He CHOOSE to do so, against the advice of a 911 Operator who told him not to and this choice set in motion the chain of events which lead to the death of Martin. That is the legal definition of Involuntary manslaughter. What you think about it is irrelevant, this is what the law says.


There is no evidence that GZ even approached TM. According to TMs girlfriend, TM began the confrontation.

There is no evidence at all that GZ created the situation. GZ did exactly what he had the right to do, keep an eye on TM.

Here is what it looks like happened from the evidence.

GZ is in his car keeping an eye on the neighborhood. TM comes along, and GZ thinks he looks suspicious. GZ calls the police, which is a clear indication that he does not intend on confronting TM. He is calling for the local police to deal with the situation.

TM spies GZ watching him and tells his girlfriend. TM's girlfriend tells TM to run, which TM says he is not going to do.

While still on the phone with the police GZ gets out of his truck to keep an eye on TM.

TM takes off running around a corner, GZ starts the run. The dispatcher hears him breathing hard, asks GM if he is following TM, and tells GZ he does not need to do that. The dispatcher does not tell GZ not to follow TM, only that is is not needed. GZ's breathing slows down, indication he is no longer jogging. GZ makes arrangements to meet with a police officer, and the call ends.

From the physical location of the body, the confrontation took place just around the corner TM had jogged around. It looks like GZ rounds the corner, where TM is waiting, while talking to his girlfriend. If he hadn't been waiting for GZ, and GZ had been pursuing TM, this should have take place further on down the block.

From TM's GF's account, TM asks GM what he wants, GM then asks TM what he is doing there, and body blows immediately follow.

From the location of where the body was found, and the two phone conversations, it looks like TM jogged round the corner, and then waited for GZ, and ambushed GZ.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by ker2010
 



Zimmerman automatically felt it was his responsibility to confront him.


And how do you know this? Are you a mind reader? Clairvoyant or something?

Being the GZ called the police, it is a strong indicator that he had no intention of confronting TM, only of keeping an eye on him.

Is there any previous evidence of GZ confronting people, or has it all been police reports? What you are demonstrating is a consistent pattern of GZ not confronting people, but calling the police.

Most neighborhoods have these types of busy bodies. This is nothing unusual.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MrWendal
 



I agree, Zimmerman did not need to get into a fight. Zimmerman did not need to approach Martin. He CHOOSE to do so, against the advice of a 911 Operator who told him not to and this choice set in motion the chain of events which lead to the death of Martin. That is the legal definition of Involuntary manslaughter. What you think about it is irrelevant, this is what the law says.


There is no evidence that GZ even approached TM. According to TMs girlfriend, TM began the confrontation.

There is no evidence at all that GZ created the situation. GZ did exactly what he had the right to do, keep an eye on TM.

Here is what it looks like happened from the evidence.

GZ is in his car keeping an eye on the neighborhood. TM comes along, and GZ thinks he looks suspicious. GZ calls the police, which is a clear indication that he does not intend on confronting TM. He is calling for the local police to deal with the situation.

TM spies GZ watching him and tells his girlfriend. TM's girlfriend tells TM to run, which TM says he is not going to do.

While still on the phone with the police GZ gets out of his truck to keep an eye on TM.

TM takes off running around a corner, GZ starts the run. The dispatcher hears him breathing hard, asks GM if he is following TM, and tells GZ he does not need to do that. The dispatcher does not tell GZ not to follow TM, only that is is not needed. GZ's breathing slows down, indication he is no longer jogging. GZ makes arrangements to meet with a police officer, and the call ends.

From the physical location of the body, the confrontation took place just around the corner TM had jogged around. It looks like GZ rounds the corner, where TM is waiting, while talking to his girlfriend. If he hadn't been waiting for GZ, and GZ had been pursuing TM, this should have take place further on down the block.

From TM's GF's account, TM asks GM what he wants, GM then asks TM what he is doing there, and body blows immediately follow.

From the location of where the body was found, and the two phone conversations, it looks like TM jogged round the corner, and then waited for GZ, and ambushed GZ.


BINGO
THATS why he has not been
arrested or charged and THATS why
they have no case. THATS why the eye witness testimony
the 9-11 calls, and all the evidence adds up=zimmerman self defense 1+1=2
MAYBE THATS WHY THIS HAS NOTHING to do with the color
of treyvons skin.



posted on Mar, 25 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
There is no evidence that GZ even approached TM. According to TMs girlfriend, TM began the confrontation.


That is not entirely accurate at all. If George Zimmerman was not close enough to Martin to ask him what he was doing there when he was on the phone with 911, how did he get so close to Martin afterwards? Keep in mind, Martin RAN from ZImmerman according to Zimmerman's 911 call. So if ZImmerman did not follow him, and did not approach him, how did the fight even take place to begin with?


There is no evidence at all that GZ created the situation. GZ did exactly what he had the right to do, keep an eye on TM.


If you are told to NOT follow someone, and you do so anyway and then find yourself in a fight with that person, you created the situation that lead to the fight by following. Now I agree Zimmerman had a right o keep an eye on him, but he has no right to make contact and question Martin. That is the job of Law Enforcement. Once Zimmerman called 911, Martin then became a "suspicious person", and who's job is it to question "suspicious people"?


Here is what it looks like happened from the evidence.

GZ is in his car keeping an eye on the neighborhood. TM comes along, and GZ thinks he looks suspicious. GZ calls the police, which is a clear indication that he does not intend on confronting TM. He is calling for the local police to deal with the situation.

TM spies GZ watching him and tells his girlfriend. TM's girlfriend tells TM to run, which TM says he is not going to do.

While still on the phone with the police GZ gets out of his truck to keep an eye on TM.

TM takes off running around a corner, GZ starts the run. The dispatcher hears him breathing hard, asks GM if he is following TM, and tells GZ he does not need to do that. The dispatcher does not tell GZ not to follow TM, only that is is not needed. GZ's breathing slows down, indication he is no longer jogging. GZ makes arrangements to meet with a police officer, and the call ends.

From the physical location of the body, the confrontation took place just around the corner TM had jogged around. It looks like GZ rounds the corner, where TM is waiting, while talking to his girlfriend. If he hadn't been waiting for GZ, and GZ had been pursuing TM, this should have take place further on down the block.

From TM's GF's account, TM asks GM what he wants, GM then asks TM what he is doing there, and body blows immediately follow.

From the location of where the body was found, and the two phone conversations, it looks like TM jogged round the corner, and then waited for GZ, and ambushed GZ.


Amazing recap built on fantasy, assumption, and guess work. However it is NOT based on evidence. If this scenario you are painting is indeed true... where does Zimmerman's testimony come into play? Again in case you missed it, Zimmerman said he only stepped out of his truck to see what street he was on. Yet in your scenario he is out the truck, giving chase, and decides to walk back and is attacked. So where is the part where that accounts for Zimmerman's claim that he needed to see what street he was?

That is just one of a few problems with your scenario, but if you want to discuss this with me we can take them one by one. So let us start with that.




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