Claiming the Ascended Masters for Your Own

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by drgrantdiz

 

The bible isn't one book... And who is to say what is written about is "fake"?

No one was there... but the question is, why would these people who wrote these books lie about what they saw... or heard?

Of course there are some stories at that are questionable... but calling the entire book "fake"?

I wouldn't go that far...

I believe a message from an important person in history could very well have been preserved...

quit bitching about there being different books; that doesn't help your cause because the differences between them only seem to imply that either A: they didn't know what they were talking about or B: they were making this all up.

and maybe they aren't lying, maybe people thousands of years ago before proper schooling and education did believe in a man who could walk on water... and you want to act like that makes it true? I look at that and laugh, the same way I laugh when I read about religions that believed the world was on the back of a giant turtle... I don't get how otherwise intelligent people convince themselves that these fairy tales in the bible are anything more then worthless paper material that is hypocritical in it's very nature.

people also used to believe in witches... does that make harry potter true?

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Well, Fripped, I don't think we will agree. If you mean "follow" by accepting every word in the bible as infalliable - then you are right in so far as the parameters you have set. I don't follow Christ in the manner in which you, YOU feel is necessary. I have explained myself continuously that I follow Christ's example as I see it. Not how you see it. I don't follow, I lead. If can't I forge my own path. So far as spirituality is concerned. Well - that's not true - I'm often accused of being like that about everything!

I have only shared with you words of scripture and the very Word of God, Christ himself. If you do not follow/believe/trust in him as he has set forth then it is you who have judged yourself according to him and not at all what I myself feel or have in my opinion made necessary. Take Christ at his word, stop blaming me, and take it up with him who told us in his own words what it means to honor and respect him.

I strive to follow in Christ's example. I try to follow in Buddha's example. I strive to follow in the Druid way. I strive to seek spiritual balance in my life. So on and so forth.

If this is the case then you also need to strive to be atheist, and agnostic, and Hindu, and Muslim, and Satanic, and the list goes on. And until you do all this you are utterly lacking and failing according to your own constructs unless you deem only Christ, Buddha, and Witchcraft as viable for spiritual enlightenment but even then what gain is it to be of and have the whole world and lose your own soul? Your relativism kills me Seriously, if truth exists then it IS straight and narrow. Spirituality means nothing without the Holy Spirit. Put your faith in Christ for salvation and you will be saved.....no need to confine yourself with labels. It is all my hope you will see, feel, and accept the awesomeness of the work that has been done in Jesus.

Do you see? I can't be christian because I won't be contained. I won't let someone else tell me that anything can be suppressed or oppressed. I will never believe that "God" is a man sitting in Heaven waiting to send some of his creation to hell. Our separation from knowing God, is hell enough on this earth. I don't know how to come to a reasonable compromise with you - as you are grid locked into the way you believe. I understand that. I just can't be like that. I'm just not that way. Blessed Be and may you find love and light in your life - HeFrippedMeOff

There. The golden happy medium just like Aristotle has taught us.

Just so you know, I do hope and believe that eventually most of all creation will be saved. I do believe in a scriptural harpazzo but after that also comes many out of great tribulation. One day every eye will see and every knee will bow. Only the most evil, hard-hearted of individuals will never accept God even when they see him with their own eyes condemning themselves to eternity without God's presence. I pray the light of life reach your heart and hope one day to stand along with you in the perfect love of our Father's eternal presence.

reply to post by drgrantdiz

quit bitching about there being different books; that doesn't help your cause because the differences between them only seem to imply that either A: they didn't know what they were talking about or B: they were making this all up.

Actually, it's a combination of both.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

I know when Christ ascended from Sheol the dead rose and witnessed with him for 40 days. I also know the dead in Christ shall rise first and then later those who are alive and remain shall meet them in the air but we are given glorified bodies not of flesh, as explained to those questioning Christ about marriage in the afterlife.

And...you "know" this, how? Because you read a forged, altered, censored, distorted book?
[quote If this is not of what you speak then perhaps enlighten me using the words of Christ and/or his followers as to the fleshly reincarnation you speak of that would be akin to Buddhist reincarnation.

Really? Because I can.
But I grow weary from time to time trying to enlighten those subsumed with fake dogma. And there are already plenty (PUH-LENTY) of threads that have links sourced that indicate as much.

I suggest you start with Notovitch
Then read "The Fifth Gospel" by Hassnain and Levi.

And look into "The Life of St Issa", and the Essenes.

As far as the 'words' of Christ and his followers, I already told you:
"You must be born again."

Then, after your eyes are peeled open, you can take a look at the parts of the "Bible" where he says so-and-so was Elijah before....and so on and so forth. You really need those pointed out to you? Or are you just the newest proselytizer of the fiction that is the Bible as interpreted by men.

You wanna go at it?
I'm game....not tonight...but I'll wait to hear you ask me for sources. Then we will have a 'go'.
Please, stop deploying fiction as fact. Plenty of folks here are way ahead of you. I'm sure they'll be game, if you are.

I don't mean to be rude. If you are truly unaware of these things, I (and others) are here to help you discover the objective truth.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

I know when Christ ascended from Sheol the dead rose and witnessed with him for 40 days. I also know the dead in Christ shall rise first and then later those who are alive and remain shall meet them in the air but we are given glorified bodies not of flesh, as explained to those questioning Christ about marriage in the afterlife.

And...you "know" this, how? Because you read a forged, altered, censored, distorted book?

be it unto you according to your own faith but can we get back to the topic at hand, reincarnation as Jesus taught or is none of scripture or Jesus words good enough for discussing what Jesus himself taught? Anyways, moving on...

If this is not of what you speak then perhaps enlighten me using the words of Christ and/or his followers as to the fleshly reincarnation you speak of that would be akin to Buddhist reincarnation.

Really? Because I can.
But I grow weary from time to time trying to enlighten those subsumed with fake dogma. And there are already plenty (PUH-LENTY) of threads that have links sourced that indicate as much.

I suggest you start with Notovitch
Then read "The Fifth Gospel" by Hassnain and Levi.

And look into "The Life of St Issa", and the Essenes.

As far as the 'words' of Christ and his followers, I already told you:
"You must be born again."

I will take Jesus and his disciples word over the (nazarene/essene/gnostic, and others) in this,

John 3: 5-7
''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter "to the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. "

You're born again statement is not about being born again unto flesh.

Or perhaps if you still won't believe even though you've misinterpreted scripture how about 1 Corinthians 15:52-54?

Some people will believe everybody about Christ except for Christ himself and his followers.

Then, after your eyes are peeled open, you can take a look at the parts of the "Bible" where he says so-and-so was Elijah before....and so on and so forth. You really need those pointed out to you? Or are you just the newest proselytizer of the fiction that is the Bible as interpreted by men.

Actually it says the spirit of Elijah not Elijah himself. Too, John himself says he is not Elijah. Perhaps if you will bring me into remembrance you can do it adequately and without malice. I don't like being wrong and if I am I sincerely want to know where I err so I can be better. You attitude isn't necessary if what you preach is stable and truth.

You wanna go at it?
I'm game....not tonight...but I'll wait to hear you ask me for sources. Then we will have a 'go'.
Please, stop deploying fiction as fact. Plenty of folks here are way ahead of you. I'm sure they'll be game, if you are.

I don't mean to be rude. If you are truly unaware of these things, I (and others) are here to help you discover the objective truth.

No more sources needed about Christ unless they come from him or his apostles; their words will either prove or disprove them. Only this, I see where you do err and I know what I read as explained above and you still haven't corroborated fleshly reincarnation which is the fiction being spouted here as truth. Nevertheless, make scripture what you want it to be to serve yourself instead of letting it be in context as it is but lying to yourself about what scripture says is dangerous especially if you have believed a gospel other than the one that has been preached. I too understand what it means when someone gets overtly emotional in their arguments and replies. If your foundation isn't all that stable then build your house somewhere else. Really and sincerely.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

John 3: 5-7
''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter "to the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. "

You're born again statement is not about being born again unto flesh.

Do who in the what now-----?!......

Uh, let's have a look at that.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
Amniotic fluid, and the Divine Spark that resides in everyone.

he cannot enter "to the kingdom of God.
Gotta do both....uterus and ethereal spark....

.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Right. The flesh of us is born of the flesh....the Spirit of us is in us when we are born of flesh.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Marvel not.
Sorry this wasn't clear to you before. This is actually one of those very rare passages that can be taken literally as published in English.

Namaste
...........
EDIT TO ADD:

Actually it says the spirit of Elijah not Elijah himself. Too, John himself says he is not Elijah. Perhaps if you will bring me into remembrance you can do it adequately and without malice. I don't like being wrong and if I am I sincerely want to know where I err so I can be better. You attitude isn't necessary if what you preach is stable and truth.

Well!...that's certainly less combative than you have proven to be heretofore!
I will attempt to bring you into remembrance, but I am not a Ch-V databank. It will take me some time. If anyone wants to precede me, that's cool.

Back with you tomorrow, HeF.
Again,
Namaste

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


I have read the Bhavagad Gita and Krishna's story. He also was an ascended master, an incarnation who claimed to be the son of God - sent to guide mankind. I know of Buddha and strive for inner peace and Nirvana. I believe he also was an ascended master.

In fact, there are more than 20 divine beings who claimed to be the "son of God". This idea has existed much longer than Christ himself.

Thor (teutonic), Osiris (Egypt), Adad (Syria), Zoroastra or Mithra (Persia), Bali (Afghanistan), Mohammed (Arabia), Quetzcoatl (Mexico), Romulus (Rome), and these are just to mention a few. Also, many of these gods were born to a virgin mother.

I am aware of Atheism. I've always got my nose in one of my books or online studying this stuff. It's my passion. Since I believe in God (ie. higher power or force) I cannot rightfully claim to be an Atheist, no more than I could rightfully claim to be any other faith except perhaps new-age or some similar label. Labels don't matter so much as how we conduct ourselves. Furthermore, I don't consider anything I read to be "gospel" no matter the religion, belief, or faith. I think that all information that comes to us, comes to us through man, and therefore is to only be studied with this in mind.

I've also read many of the Apocryphal texts such as the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, and more.

You see I'm aware of the gospels. I'm also aware of the mystery teachings of many different belief sets. However, I don't wish to offend you so let's stick with the New Testament of the Bible (As likely you can tell how I feel about the Old Testament).

First let us establish that we are to act as Christ did and strive to do as he did and that through his apostles we can liken ourselves to Christ's example.

John 14:12 Verily, verily I say unto you. He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my father.

Now the bible is filled with occult phenomenon performed not only by Christ, but by his Apostles also, whom were taught these mystery (occult) practices. Now I know that many more orthodox and traditional Christians feel that the occult and psychic work are acts of the devil. However, there are numerous examples of the wondrous acts.

Let us start with Clairvoyance. Which is seeing into the future or visions.
Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Psychometry Reading objects or people by touching them.
Acts 6:5 - And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
John 4: 16-19 - Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Elemental Macic(k) I use the K to denote the difference between stage magic and spiritual magick.
Matthew 14:29-30 - And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

You see here is my thing. If no one bothers to in actuality strive to be as Christ was, how is it we expect an earthly incarnation to become infused with the Holy Spirit on this plane? Where does Metatron have to go if no one is properly prepared in the mystery traditions? We had to fall, in order for our spirit to exist in the material plane. The longer we stay bound to our earth, the more dense our spirit becomes. This is why it was so often warned in Luke 12:15 to guard against becoming entrenched in material things. This is why mystery teachings are so very important to society. It serves as a way to re-connect with the higher realm of spirit where our ascended masters reside. You see our material (etheric) bodies serve to ground our consciousness to the physical life and filter out our awareness of other dimensions and energies surrounding and affecting us. The mystery teaching help us to connect to our ethereal spirit in so that we may better prepare ourselves for the truth. This is the act of a true disciple. It is the development of these abilities that help us discover truth and wisdom in God.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

John 3: 5-7
''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter "to the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. "

You're born again statement is not about being born again unto flesh.

Do who in the what now-----?!......

Uh, let's have a look at that.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
Amniotic fluid, and the Divine Spark that resides in everyone.

he cannot enter "to the kingdom of God.
Gotta do both....uterus and ethereal spark....

.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Right. The flesh of us is born of the flesh....the Spirit of us is in us when we are born of flesh.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Marvel not.
Sorry this wasn't clear to you before. This is actually one of those very rare passages that can be taken literally as published in English.

Namaste

It's a shame you disregard the other passage I cited about putting on the incorruptible. Born of water, I agree, I our first birth but being born again is being born again in Spirit, being born of the Holy Spirit which through Jesus we now have access to; it is replacing the naturally animalistic human nature with the nature of God....this is not even close to fleshly reincarnation for flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, neither does corruption inherit indestructibility. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Building your own truth on one single verse, privately interpreting it to fit how you want things to be is not the way this works, little sister.

P.s. combativeness is part of debate along with passion and fierceness. You're quite the firecracker if I may say so but in a good way I mean . Passion is important and I admire that but being able to stand upon what you believe because it, in and of itself, is true is not replaceable by any amount of desire or passion or want or knowledge that we add.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

1) I don't dispute the fact that many have come in the name of being Christ with many nice things to prick the ears but none other is risen from the grave like our Lord Jesus. There is only one savior. The others do not offer salvation and redemption unto our Father.

2) If it all comes from man and all men err then there is no reason to take another man's words or desires over that of our own ie relativism and subjective truth. If you don't believe there is good news to mankind for salvation unto God then how empty is your spirituality and pursuit of such in things according to mere men who are no more or less than you or me in relativity?

3) You missed my point. The point is that unless you are familiar with EVERY form and accept them all as valid (as opposed to all flawed by men) then you will ultimately be lacking, inadequate, and not in contention for being received unto God. Nevertheless, are they all flawed or all they all true or is truth narrow and most false or what....I'm getting contradicting philosophies from you.

4) I cannot accept the establishment as you have set forth as being built on truth. I would say let us establish that according to the law of Love as set forth in scripture first by God and fulfilled by Christ, through the Holy Spirit we can achieve God's nature pleasing Him.

5)We can do those same works accomplished by Christ, even purifying our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love, but salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, but is the gift of God lest any man should boast. As for the power to work "phenomena" with power, the power source is important regardless of how wondrous (according to personal definitions) they may seem.

6) We strive to be like Christ in love. Love of our Father, and love of our neighbors. Our works of love are not bound by supernatural phenomena nor is salvation unto God dependent on being able to perform miracles because salvation is a gift that is to be accepted. We can't earn salvation. No ascended master is ascended according to his own goodness apart from the Truth of God. All men are dead in there sins until redeemed according to the will of God. And with all due respect, the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. And true discipleship hangs on the two greatest laws God has ordained, again to love God above all else, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. God loves us so much that he gave his only son to die for our sins so that whosoever would simply believe would not perish but have everlasting life. All the rest you say only adds up to one trying to work their own way into heaven but until one accepts the fact of sin in their heart one will always and only ever be willing to lead denying the very leadership of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

It's a shame you disregard the other passage I cited about putting on the incorruptible.

The other passage that you didn't include...? Instead you just cited it.....
Okay, I'll go check it out, since you can't be bothered with ex-texting it here.....
okay... here we go:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Oh, wait. I just went back and reread your post....this is the one you're talking about:

I Corinthians 15:52-54?

"52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

That's the moment of death.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Right. We revert back to spirit-form, and are changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Correct....our mortal machines (our bodies) put on our spirit-suit and ascend (or transform, or whatever) back into 'spirit'.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Yep! When the flesh is overridden by the Divine Spark within, after many attempts....and clothed with the fact of immortality........then the saying will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Correct. After the final mortal lifetime, after being born again of water (in the womb) and Spirit (the divine spark).....death is swallowed up,
BECAUSE WE HAVE REACHED THE PINNACLE OF SOUL-LEARNING HERE ON EARTH.

Born of water, I agree, I our first birth but being born again is being born again in Spirit, being born of the Holy Spirit which through Jesus we now have access to; it is replacing the naturally animalistic human nature with the nature of God....this is not even close to fleshly reincarnation for flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, neither does corruption inherit indestructibility.

Right. Being born again is being born again in Spirit. Which through Jesus we now have access to. Yes, every time you are born (again), you are getting closer to the Divine.
...sigh...
It's so simple. He said it. He meant it. But y'all try to make it a metaphor, when it isn't.

Originally posted by drgrantdiz

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by drgrantdiz

 

The bible isn't one book... And who is to say what is written about is "fake"?

No one was there... but the question is, why would these people who wrote these books lie about what they saw... or heard?

Of course there are some stories at that are questionable... but calling the entire book "fake"?

I wouldn't go that far...

I believe a message from an important person in history could very well have been preserved...

quit bitching about there being different books; that doesn't help your cause because the differences between them only seem to imply that either A: they didn't know what they were talking about or B: they were making this all up.

and maybe they aren't lying, maybe people thousands of years ago before proper schooling and education did believe in a man who could walk on water... and you want to act like that makes it true? I look at that and laugh, the same way I laugh when I read about religions that believed the world was on the back of a giant turtle... I don't get how otherwise intelligent people convince themselves that these fairy tales in the bible are anything more then worthless paper material that is hypocritical in it's very nature.

people also used to believe in witches... does that make harry potter true?

Whos bitching... and what cause are you refering to?

I have no cause... And i couldn't care less if you believe whats in the bible or not...

If you don't understand why "intelligent" people believe in said book.... simple solution...

1. Try to figure it out...

or

2. Avoid them.........

Problem solved

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Building your own truth on one single verse, privately interpreting it to fit how you want things to be is not the way this works, little sister.

Whoa... what? Did you just call me "little sister"?

Nonono, HeF, I've built my "own truth" on years of study and research and soul-searching.
I am interpreting my Holy Spark in the way that makes the most sense to me.....and it has NOTHING to do with "one single verse". It has to do with studying all (known) world religions...and picking and choosing what makes sense to me, for ME.

I'm interpreting my private journey privately, because I have a brain, and an education, and am not brainwashed. Who are you to tell me my private interpretation is incorrect?

reply to post by wildtimes


I second that. Well said Wildtimes.

The thing is, I enjoy studying Christianity, until someone starts dictating to me how to think! Of course, my background is filled with family who were Christian, particularly Protestant and Roman Catholic. (How my grandparents made it work for over 40 years is a testament that love overcomes all boundaries that separate people.) My mother was raised in a religiously strict environment and although she was not religious in her adult years, she still imparted to me the morals and ethics taught by Christ. She simply is of a spiritual and intellectual bent, and encouraged my own private growth. She wanted me to form my own informed opinion before submitting myself to being led by others. Judeo-Christian mysticism is one of my favorite areas of study - but I won't be contained by it, or let it stop me from forging my own beliefs derived from whatever sources I deem spiritually enlightening.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth

My mother was raised in a religiously strict environment and although she was not religious in her adult years, she still imparted to me the morals and ethics taught by Christ. She simply is of a spiritual and intellectual bent, and encouraged my own private growth. She wanted me to form my own informed opinion before submitting myself to being led by others. Judeo-Christian mysticism is one of my favorite areas of study - but I won't be contained by it, or let it stop me from forging my own beliefs derived from whatever sources I deem spiritually enlightening.

Awesome. She did you a great service, then.
I tried to do the same with my kids...they are now in their early 20s...

My mom was very religious until she reached middle age (she had me when she was 19, and both of my brothers by age 22)....she and I both studied social matters, and we both studied "religious dogma", although independently of one another until the last couple of decades. We are now completely in sync on the subjects of social psychology and evolution; and on the same page with matters of spirituality, manipulation, the evolution of mankind, and so forth and so on.

My hope is that the next generations will receive the same sort of "intelligent" and "enlightened" freedom to discover as your mom gave you, my mom and I worked through together, and I gave my own kids.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

It's a shame you disregard the other passage I cited about putting on the incorruptible.

The other passage that you didn't include...? Instead you just cited it.....
Okay, I'll go check it out, since you can't be bothered with ex-texting it here.....
okay... here we go:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Oh, wait. I just went back and reread your post....this is the one you're talking about:

I Corinthians 15:52-54?

"52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

That's the moment of death.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Right. We revert back to spirit-form, and are changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Correct....our mortal machines (our bodies) put on our spirit-suit and ascend (or transform, or whatever) back into 'spirit'.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Yep! When the flesh is overridden by the Divine Spark within, after many attempts....and clothed with the fact of immortality........then the saying will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Correct. After the final mortal lifetime, after being born again of water (in the womb) and Spirit (the divine spark).....death is swallowed up,
BECAUSE WE HAVE REACHED THE PINNACLE OF SOUL-LEARNING HERE ON EARTH.

Born of water, I agree, I our first birth but being born again is being born again in Spirit, being born of the Holy Spirit which through Jesus we now have access to; it is replacing the naturally animalistic human nature with the nature of God....this is not even close to fleshly reincarnation for flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, neither does corruption inherit indestructibility.

Right. Being born again is being born again in Spirit. Which through Jesus we now have access to. Yes, every time you are born (again), you are getting closer to the Divine.
...sigh...
It's so simple. He said it. He meant it. But y'all try to make it a metaphor, when it isn't.

To make the above a metaphor would be to claim that reincarnation according to Christ in scripture is that of a fleshly one when it obviously is not. We are not reborn of flesh but of Spirit. We are first born of water but flesh cannot inherit the kingdom as we must be yet born again of the spirit so that when we shed this corruptible flesh we may inherit a new form that is of the spirit and incorruptible and made for the continual presence of the Father. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God and as Hebrews 9: 27-28 tells us, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. "

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Building your own truth on one single verse, privately interpreting it to fit how you want things to be is not the way this works, little sister.

Whoa... what? Did you just call me "little sister"?

It is a term of endearment. Do your philosophies yet separate you from your fellow human simply because of words? Have your philosophies not imparted peace unto you that you may so easily be drawn to ire for endearment's sake? Do not be offended. I meant no such harm.

Nonono, HeF, I've built my "own truth" on years of study and research and soul-searching.
I am interpreting my Holy Spark in the way that makes the most sense to me.....and it has NOTHING to do with "one single verse". It has to do with studying all (known) world religions...and picking and choosing what makes sense to me, for ME.

Isn't cherry picking something Christians are derided heavily for yet in your relativism , knowing all while proving no understanding of all, claiming all to be errant in men yet accepting all from men except for those of the Holy Spirit in scripture? Are you yourself not human and thus errant as well yet claim total trust in your own understanding even denying the understanding of God Himself in truth and incorruptibility? You utterly prove a one verse private interpretation of scripture in that you refuse the entirety of scripture that would lay to rest the claim that reincarnation(resurrection) will be of the flesh again into corruption.

I'm interpreting my private journey privately, because I have a brain, and an education, and am not brainwashed. Who are you to tell me my private interpretation is incorrect?

In the light of the truth of scripture (and not of my own word) your philosophical foundation is showing cracks. I but point them out seeing that it is illogical to not believe in the Word of God because men are errant and men wrote it while holding fast to all the other philosophies of the World that too, errant men have written and nonetheless written in their own natural worldly spirit making God to be our creation as opposed to we being His. Too, your claims of private interpretations speak toward relativism which has no place, no not even in Academia. Again, there is no privately interpreting Truth for Truth is straight, narrow, is unchanging, and is true for all times and for all peoples past, present, and future else it is not Truth. Truth is either objective or there is no such thing. And finally, your emotionality through this all is evidence of the sanctity of the foundation upon which you build.

In your relativism whether I judge you or not it should be of no consequence yet you are grieved but why? I am no one to condemn for I have no power but if the Word of God which is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart be that which cuts you then it is no longer I who judge you but God himself. Heed His Spirit with the reverence you give the world and perhaps you'll be able to rest.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Do your philosophies yet separate you from your fellow human simply because of words? Have your philosophies not imparted peace unto you that you may so easily be drawn to ire for endearment's sake? Do not be offended. I meant no such harm.

Oh, okay....to my ears "little sister" is akin to "you people", but an individual debasement....
I wouldn't call my reaction 'ire'....it is self-defense against those who call me a heretical sinner.

Isn't cherry picking something Christians are derided heavily for yet in your relativism , knowing all while proving no understanding of all, claiming all to be errant in men yet accepting all from men except for those of the Holy Spirit in scripture?

What? I've read that three times now.
Yes, cherry-picking is inappropriate. ...'my relativism' is not claiming I know all. I fully and freely admit I do not know all.
We are all looking, HeF. Not one of us has the answers.

Sorry, but this question does make sense to me.

Are you yourself not human and thus errant as well yet claim total trust in your own understanding even denying the understanding of God Himself in truth and incorruptibility?

Yes, I am human, and thus errant...I do not have all the answers; I am merely capable and willing to look past church dogma and figure it out for myself.

You utterly prove a one verse private interpretation of scripture in that you refuse the entirety of scripture that would lay to rest the claim that reincarnation(resurrection) will be of the flesh again into corruption.

It is not a one-verse-private-interpretation. It is a well-rounded, educated look from all sides at the 'entirety' of scripture that is routinely corrupted.

I have looked to the facts on the ground, and the discovered texts, and the other-than-dogmatic evidence. I have not shied away from a theory or idea in a quivering fear.....I am open of mind, and generous of heart.

I have concluded that: despising people who are on their own journeys and reject packaged religion is wrong.
You know no more than I, HeF.
I will trust my inner spirit, yes. And you have no standing to claim it is false.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

... I meant no such harm.

Oh, okay....to my ears "little sister" is akin to "you people", but an individual debasement....
I wouldn't call my reaction 'ire'....it is self-defense against those who call me a heretical sinner.

Nevertheless, "heretical sinner" is not my word but what you have heard in your head according to the convicting spirit inside. "Little sister" is a familial term and I use it because we all are sinners, all in the same boat, and all are sinking in sin spiritually without a perfect savior.

Isn't cherry picking something Christians are derided heavily for yet in your relativism , knowing all while proving no understanding of all, claiming all to be errant in men yet accepting all from men except for those of the Holy Spirit in scripture?

What? I've read that three times now.
Yes, cherry-picking is inappropriate. ...'my relativism' is not claiming I know all. I fully and freely admit I do not know all.
We are all looking, HeF. Not one of us has the answers.

Did you not say, "..and picking and choosing what makes sense to me, for ME. I'm interpreting my private journey privately, because I have a brain, and an education, and am not brainwashed. Who are you to tell me my private interpretation is incorrect?"

If cherry-picking is inappropriate then you are guilty of being inappropriate and thus inadequate in your arguments according to your very own words so let us heretofore deny the ignorance. You say you have read "it" three times but deny the truth of scripture making our resurrection unto salvation about flesh. You even deny the grace of our God in Christ for the sake of having things your way. How can that be the right way spiritually?

Sorry, but this question does make sense to me.

Are you yourself not human and thus errant as well yet claim total trust in your own understanding even denying the understanding of God Himself in truth and incorruptibility?

Yes, I am human, and thus errant...I do not have all the answers; I am merely capable and willing to look past church dogma and figure it out for myself.

What about the actual life of Christ and the lives of the many who sacrificed their lives unto love for faith and hope in God? Is this unfounded and believed without reason? If God is true and Jesus his Christ sent to us then is not the Word of God (Jesus/his words/and life) in Power and Truth?

I do speak of salvation and redemption in Jesus Christ which are no dogma being believed without reason.

You utterly prove a one verse private interpretation of scripture in that you refuse the entirety of scripture that would lay to rest the claim that reincarnation(resurrection) will be of the flesh again into corruption.

It is not a one-verse-private-interpretation. It is a well-rounded, educated look from all sides at the 'entirety' of scripture that is routinely corrupted.

Mercy. Please. A well-rounded, educated acceptance of every philosophy every man has ever offered is true divinity while the Word of God is corrupt in that collectively it corroborates a truth that you don't like? And so you take a verse here or there and build your own philosophy? Come on! Do you see what I mean by "cracks in the foundations of false philosophies, even in relativism?"

...
I will trust my inner spirit, yes. And you have no standing to claim it is false.

If you insinuate I despise you, I do not. In vain philosophies that lead only to death, I do despise for I would that none should perish but that all should come to everlasting life in the truth of the cross and faith in Jesus Christ for our Father's grace.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 cor 2:11-16

My faith is not in my own wisdom but in the power of God through His Word. If you be judged, it is not of me for the words I relate are not my own. Judge thyself according to God in Truth.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Hi Fripped. I apologize for taking so long to respond. I was otherwise engaged yesterday and really only popped in until night.

1. Well I'm not disputing the fact either. I don't think Christ has returned, but then, I see Christ as a composite of archetype. Rome was an Empire, and they were empirical, thus you are going to get absolutism in religion designed to conquer and convert. Is it not strange that the first historical writing even mentioning Christ's resurrection, that was witnessed by 500 of his followers, but wasn't even recorded by one historian of that time? Tacitus was born two decades after Christ's death in 33ad. His account was second hand and thus the reliability comes into question. Even Josephus's account comes into question as he was born in 37ad. Isn't it strange that no non-believers witnessed the event? Why didn't the Roman historians record even one name and witness account in 33 ad? Why does no text even mention the name Jesus of Nazarene? Instead we have vague accounts. I'm fairly confident that someone rising from the grave would cause a bit of a stir that couldn't be ignored. Furthermore, Christians don't even agree as to whether the resurrection was bodily or spirit form!

2. I do believe that there is a God. It's just not your subjective version. Moralistic and cultural relativism does not mean that their is no truth or God. Besides, what you are referring to is ethical subjectivism. I believe absolutely that a higher omniscient force governs the Universe. However, we were separated and made to forget God for a purpose. We are here in this dualized existence to make ourselves worthy once again through right choices and good morals and acts. God is omniscient, the perfected state of being. It is human nature to wish to return to the source. One cannot say that without religious absolutism there is no morality! This is not true. You know Christian morality has changed dramatically over the centuries. To say that Christianity is any less culturally influenced to the relativity of today is false.

3. I don't think that every belief is equally valid for myself personally. However, I cannot judge anyone's belief on the premise that it doesn't agree with my own. We all have the right to believe, practice, and study our beliefs. They don't have to agree with your beliefs. If they did, I wouldn't be able to even conceive of any other notion but what God set forth. Since this is not the case - here we are arguing Christian absolutism and spiritual relativism. Yes, we must contend with duality. That's life.

4. I am not asking you to believe that my way is the truth. In no way are you obligated to believe anything I say is truth. I am not your God, I don't deal in absolutes. My beliefs change and grow all the time. For example, in a year we might be having the same conversation but my entire view has changed. I am always in search for the truth, I don't presume to think I have it! My works for me though. I am good person and I strive to be kind and I actively seek to improve my idea of spirituality, religion, and God through study and introspection.

5. In this we agree. Faith and intention are very important in spiritual work. I'm still working on understanding the salvation part however, from the fundamentalist mind frame, that is. When I consider salvation, I simply cannot do it in only a Christian context. It doesn't resonate with me. Deep down in my soul. This is not to say that I don't believe in sin or evil. Of course, I do! I try to adhere to a strict set of morals imparted to me through my family and society. Spiritually, I try to even be stricter in that my intention is clear, focus, and good - and faith in God that there is a higher benevolent force watching over what I do.

6. Of course not! I think I have given you the wrong impression. When I work with spiritual energy it is in meditation, devotion, cleansing, dream working - you know all that new age stuff. I'm, for whatever reason, very interested with the different mysteries traditions found throughout the world. Especially the commonality found between them. It's like a beautiful woven tapestry where all idea's seem to inter-connect despite the culture or beliefs. I was using the miracles of the bible as a point of reference so as not to offend and work within the constructs of the bible so that you might understand me better. I apologize, I did not mean to mislead you into thinking I thought I was Christ or Christ-like. I'm flawed and imperfect, but I try to auto-correct. There is no growth in an absolute way of being.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

And with all due respect, the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. And true discipleship hangs on the two greatest laws God has ordained, again to love God above all else, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

The two greatest laws: love God, and love our neighbors. It has nothing to do with fear.
Lose the fear, HeF, and you are that much closer.