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Hospice ...Is this murder legal?

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posted on Mar, 21 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by Highergrounds
 


You can only get hospice care if you are diagnosed with a terminal illness , she had to have had something killing her other than the morphine and at ninety years of age what's another month .




posted on Mar, 21 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Aliensun
 


Sounds like you are a typical old fart, and wish your situations in life be inflicted on the younger people


Sounds like you did not read the post he responded to



posted on Mar, 21 2012 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by justsaying
reply to post by Tecumte
 


The reason food is not given when someone is close to dying is because when the body is dying the digestive system can no longer digest food. Hospice runs lab tests that checks a specific enzyme (I can't remember what it is) and when it reaches below a certain level, they recommend to the family that no more food be given. Food in the digestive system at this point would just come back up and then the patient runs the risk of aspiration. So, keeping in mind that hospice care is to help make the patient as comfortable as possible for the inevitable, it is in the best interest of the patient to no longer give them food. They aren't hungry and the smell of food is nauseating to them. Fluids are usually given as long as kidney function is still evident. But when kidney failure is occurring, even IV's are discontinued. So while it may seem cruel or cold that the basics of food and water are being withheld from a loved one, from the hospice and medical perspective, they are being allowed to die with as least amount of stress to them as possible and with as much dignity as possible.

Also, morphine is given to keep them as comfortable as possible. Pain, sometimes severe pain, is felt as each body system stops working (example, pleurisy is excruciating pain). The goal of hospice is to help the patient first and foremost, die with as much comfort as possible. This may be hard for some family members to accept, but the most loving act you can do for someone in this situation is to let them go.
edit on 20-3-2012 by justsaying because: (no reason given)


When you attempt to kill someone through malnutrition and dehydration and then claim the reason you don't give them food and water is because you might 'make them sick' you are presented with very faulty reasoning.

Yes I agree if the decision to shorten someones life has been made and is FINAL then by all means call in the hospice 'clean up crew', they will make sure the person dies as quickly as possible.



posted on Mar, 21 2012 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by Tecumte
 


What is stated is a medical fact. I am in my last year of nursing school. I have been through hospice twice with my own parents and also several times in my clinical rotations. Please go educate yourself and read up on the dying process.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by justsaying
 


I cared for a close friend for months - She wished to die at home
In the final weeks she lost her appetite a gradual process as her body closed down
She became skeletal
She was lucid enough to tell me when she simply did not want to eat or indeed what she wished to eat or drink
I had nurses call round - they were most amazing people - compassionate and kind and explained what was occurring with my friend.
I think dying at home made things so much more easier for my friend
The final moments were peaceful for her - I spoke to her all the time - they say the last sense to go is hearing - I held her hand and calmly chatted then she was gone - It was like a great weight being lifted I actually felt happy for her - sounds crazy I know but I do believe death is not the end of what we truly are.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by justsaying
reply to post by Tecumte
 


What is stated is a medical fact. I am in my last year of nursing school. I have been through hospice twice with my own parents and also several times in my clinical rotations. Please go educate yourself and read up on the dying process.


I've educated myself through first hand experience. What I've stated is fact, please go educate yourself on the LIVING process. The hospice I dealt with openly said that it was 'better' if the person died as quickly as possible and they made it clear they were going to do everything they could to make this happen as quickly as possible even against the family's wishes.

This person was not in severe pain, the hospice workers took it upon themselves to place hidden morphine patches on the patient, and these are very hard to find as they are skin colored. so that the person was so drugged they couldn't eat or drink. I kept finding them and pulling them off, would revive the patient so they could eat and drink and this person would come around after removing the patches and be able to talk with their grandkids and be cognizant. The last time I pulled the patches off and threatened to call the police a second time, they sent a yong Nazi girl over to administer the final 'solution' when I wasn't there and I feel pretty sure they OD'd the patient read MURDER. People BEWARE!!!! This stuff DOES happen read up on the eugenics roots and links off hospice and NEVER call one unless a hastened death is what is sought!!!!



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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Yep let's educate ourselves alright shall we, Let's start here, plenty more to come though regarding hospice and eugenics:



Now we see Hospice is Federally funded though Medicare. I have even noticed a pattern with people who were under hospice care. I notice some of the patients needed some assistance who were independent who had cancer or some other terminal illness. They where pretty alert and independent. All of sudden the same thing I hear happening over and over. The nurse gives morphine for the pain at night. The patient goes into a coma and dies. Hospice has been reported to starve patients to death with no food or water. So is Hospice the Euthanasia arm of Obamacare to cull the herd?


lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com...
edit on 22-3-2012 by Tecumte because: link added



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Tecumte
 


Well if you are so SURE this happened then you should contact a lawyer. I am sorry you had a bad experience with this but I also know that if the family is educated by the nurse caring for their loved ones, which is part of their job, so the understanding of what is being done is explained and why it is being done, then the loss of control and fear they experience decreases signiificantly. Educating the family and the patient if they still have some level of consciousness in their condition is a major part of the nursing process for hospice care.

As far as educating myself, thank you for the chuckle. I have spent the last four years in college studying anatomy, physiology, pathology, medications, dosing and how to deal with irrational family members, for starters. I have spend countless hours at the bedsides of people on the threshold of death and giving of myself to the families to help them with this extremely difficult time. The questions they ask are all the same. I know what I am doing and WE ARE ADVOCATES FOR OUR PATIENTS!!! Much time has to be spent educating the families so they understand what the nurses and doctors must do to help their loved ones. And nurses have to know as much as doctors do so we can prevent their medical mistakes.So don't go dissing all nurses. I am sorry that you had a bad experience but I know the majority of nurses are in health care because they love it, the ones that come into it for the money usually can't make it through school and if they do are usually fired not too long after their first job when the reality they are not the right stuff surfaces. Hospice is a wonderful program and those programs are very selective about the people that are hired to be a part of it, it takes very special people to care for the dying. Your experience is extremely unusual.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Tecumte
 


The attitude of some questions my belief in Human nature.
The ideas expressed by pseudo scientific eugenic lovers is abhorrent
Let a person die with dignity in their own time - drugs such as morphine should only be administered for pain relief not murder.
Rather than see them the elderly as a problem that needs to be got rid of as one poster here callously stated.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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There are two hospices in my town, plus the in-home services. In order to enter one of the hospices you must have a life expectancy of three weeks or less, and two doctors must sign off on the admission papers.

Yes, the morphine kills them fast, because they are already weak and dying, but it shocking sometimes how quickly they die once they get there.

Nonetheless, if I am dying and in pain, I want to be there just to get it over with.

I've had two friends go there. One went into a coma after his first injection, and died 18 hours later. Every time he groaned, they gave him another shot.

The other was conscious until he died two days later after entering hospice, but he was dazed and confused. I was relieved though. He is the type that would panic if he had full realization he was dying.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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reply to post by BellaSabre
 


Morphine doesn't kill anyone if administered in a therapeutic dose. It is THE most beneficial painkiller for pure pain relief. What morphine does is slow down the respiratory and heart rate, it is a central nervous system depressant and depressants slow down. The main reason morphine is used in hospice care is because as each body system starts malfunctioning and shutting down, pain can start manifesting and this pain can be severe. Sometimes it is necessary to keep the patients in a semi aware state to keep them comfortable and administer the morphine drip at a steady rate so pain breakthrough doesn't occur. Once pain breakthrough is experienced it can be difficult to break that pain cycle.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by BellaSabre
There are two hospices in my town, plus the in-home services. In order to enter one of the hospices you must have a life expectancy of three weeks or less, and two doctors must sign off on the admission papers.

Yes, the morphine kills them fast, because they are already weak and dying, but it shocking sometimes how quickly they die once they get there.

Nonetheless, if I am dying and in pain, I want to be there just to get it over with.

I've had two friends go there. One went into a coma after his first injection, and died 18 hours later. Every time he groaned, they gave him another shot.

The other was conscious until he died two days later after entering hospice, but he was dazed and confused. I was relieved though. He is the type that would panic if he had full realization he was dying.


I think what we're really talking about though as regards this OP, is that is this MURDER legal? Yes that's a strong word the Op used, but one that fits IMo when one person chooses to end the life of another WITHOUT their consent, as regards these hospice cases. Yes my own case was clearly IMO HOMOCIDE, I did everything I could to keep this person alive and Hospice did everything they could to intentionally shorten their life. The main problem was that this person should NEVER have been given 'a short time to live' diagnosis in the first place, they could have lived for YEARS as far as I know, hospice should have NEVER been called in, but due to lack of MONEY the family was nearly FORCED to use them or nothing. How many other families does this happen too???

I was making great strides bringing this person back from severe malnutrition, I got them back to recogizing their grandkids for the FIRST time in a long time, I got them to speak, and they were getting BETTER, I got them to hold up a %$# book and read to their grandkids!!! And hospice fought me every step of the way and in the end they KILLED the patient. Once a Roman 'thumbs down' is given the patient it will amaze most anyone how ALL of the forces seem to conspire to bring it about right on schedule no matter how long the natural life of the patient could have been with PROPER care. It's sad, it's a severe waste, and IMO it IS murder.
edit on 22-3-2012 by Tecumte because: sp



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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I really think to clear this up perhaps it's as easy as Hospice posting a warning label alot like say a pack of cigarretes regarding the likely effects of using their products. That way even poor people who can't pay for better care can make an informed judgement as whether they want to bring in the 'clean up crew'.

Hi, We're from Hospice. We'll get right to the point'

We're not here to help The Patient get better in fact the official decree, as you know, is that The Patient should be dead in 3 weeks. Quite frankly we intend to see that happen.

We will attend to the bodily needs in a most efficient manner but we will drug the patient into a lifeless mass that can be easily handled and will not be able to eat or drink.

We give no food nor any water, that is the job of the family, but we highly discourage this as it may prolong the life of The Patient and set our timetable back. This again is to be discouraged.

We will use synthetic morhine patches, that are skin colored and hard to detect, and place them when and where we see fit. It is at our discretion and we will up the dosage until the Patient is dead.

We will also leave vials of morphine on the nightstand, now be ...um careful with that as you have no training.

Start planning for a funeral now, we intend not to fail and we have a very strong track record.



See just be up front as to what the family is getting into, it could save a serious and tragic misunderstading later.



posted on Mar, 22 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by NeoVain
reply to post by Highergrounds
 


The old people need to go. It is a sad fact of life, but it is necessary for our survival. The younger generations will be worse off having to take care of all the old people as well as themselves, paying taxes through their nose to pensions and sick-care etc. This is especially true at these economic times we live in right now, and with the 1940-born people "baby boomers" all getting their pensions right about now, it will break the backbone of the economy keeping all these old non-productive people alive. This young doctor probably knew this and wanted to get rid of this old lady so he recommended she was sent to the "morphine house" to die peacefully.

Eat that.


This has to be the most nauseating , despicable thing i have ever heard anyone say.....

Its my opinion, that if YOU , hold this opinion , then YOU should be euthanized before any of these "old non productive people"

These people have knowledge and experience, and are hardly useless! Not to mention they are someones loved ones.........

I see youve exchanged your humanity in favor of the dollar and your own perceived self importance......

Christ whats wrong with people who have this line of thinking.............I havent foed anyone EVER, welcome to it.........



posted on Mar, 26 2012 @ 09:19 PM
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Soylant green baby, 'Obamacare', coming to a nursing home or VA hospital near you...........



posted on Mar, 26 2012 @ 11:43 PM
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I can see both sides of the argument for or against Hospice care brings out serious emotions and opinions. My mother had to have a feeding tube placed, and after a week at home, she still was not getting the nutrition she needed. She was readmitted to the hospital, and ultimately the feeding tube had to be removed. At this point she weighed 58 lbs. Her body just would not accept any nutrition whatsoever.

She began experiencing bouts of dementia, and bodily functions started shutting down. It became clear nothing else would help. She wanted to come home. The hardest talk I ever had, was asking if she knew what that would mean. She did, and said she wanted to be in her bedroom at my house during her final days. We contacted a local Hospice provider, made all the arrangements, and brought her home.

This was one of the best weeks of my life. We laughed, cried, called friends and family, she made me sing to her, and we took advantage of every moment. As she started having pain and small strokes, we began administering Morphine. I wanted the time to talk and laugh, but I was not going to allow her to be in pain. Ultimately, it was decided I needed to leave the room, as she seemed to fight going with me in the room. Shortly after I left her room, she passed quietly.

Was this murder or compassion? I know the answer for me, but to some they may feel differently. Prior to this, I had to make the decision to take my brother off of life support. In both of these instances I feel I made the right decision. I just hope someone will be there for me when the decision needs to be made.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by retiredTxn
I can see both sides of the argument for or against Hospice care brings out serious emotions and opinions. My mother had to have a feeding tube placed, and after a week at home, she still was not getting the nutrition she needed. She was readmitted to the hospital, and ultimately the feeding tube had to be removed. At this point she weighed 58 lbs. Her body just would not accept any nutrition whatsoever.

She began experiencing bouts of dementia, and bodily functions started shutting down. It became clear nothing else would help. She wanted to come home. The hardest talk I ever had, was asking if she knew what that would mean. She did, and said she wanted to be in her bedroom at my house during her final days. We contacted a local Hospice provider, made all the arrangements, and brought her home.

This was one of the best weeks of my life. We laughed, cried, called friends and family, she made me sing to her, and we took advantage of every moment. As she started having pain and small strokes, we began administering Morphine. I wanted the time to talk and laugh, but I was not going to allow her to be in pain. Ultimately, it was decided I needed to leave the room, as she seemed to fight going with me in the room. Shortly after I left her room, she passed quietly.

Was this murder or compassion? I know the answer for me, but to some they may feel differently. Prior to this, I had to make the decision to take my brother off of life support. In both of these instances I feel I made the right decision. I just hope someone will be there for me when the decision needs to be made.


Was the use of the morphine a pre agreed upon option? I think most people would agree IF the patient was ok with it then not a problem, people should IMo have control over their own decisions about health and death. It get's a little more tricky however when other people start playing god and deciding who should live and who should die and how fast. I realize all cases may differ, my own however never needed to happen, the resources were there Imo to have helped the patient perhaps live years with a quality of life. Instead the patient was terminated quickly, by simple decree, IMo AGAINST their will, what a waste, and yes there is a name for it.
edit on 29-3-2012 by Tecumte because: sp.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 02:42 AM
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ho-spice. ho's piss. Gotta be an idiot to not see it all in the name.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 02:50 AM
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Hospice is a wonderful program for most people here It generally means they no longer try to ration pain meds, because the person is deemed as not getting better, so they are made as comforatable as possible, often at home, with care given from the team and family and friends and loved ones around and is a much better way to deal with the situation than in hospital for many people, far more dignity.

Also, if a miracle is going to happen, it can happen in late stages as well.

Does this mean there may not be weird happenings, crimes of family trying to gain inheritance or some odd things, such as the wrong people occasionally in the job and working to have power over others, like prison guards and some social workers, yes, there probably is, and family need to be very protective.

Its supposed about them and the patients rights. Its supposed to empowering and dignified with as high levels as needed for pain medication.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Unity_99
Hospice is a wonderful program for most people here It generally means they no longer try to ration pain meds, because the person is deemed as not getting better, so they are made as comforatable as possible, often at home, with care given from the team and family and friends and loved ones around and is a much better way to deal with the situation than in hospital for many people, far more dignity.

Also, if a miracle is going to happen, it can happen in late stages as well.

Does this mean there may not be weird happenings, crimes of family trying to gain inheritance or some odd things, such as the wrong people occasionally in the job and working to have power over others, like prison guards and some social workers, yes, there probably is, and family need to be very protective.

Its supposed about them and the patients rights. Its supposed to empowering and dignified with as high levels as needed for pain medication.


Since *many* hospices are really working as euthanasia units IMo there needs to be much more oversight of when they are allowed to be called in. Just because some doctor or two says a person is 'deemed as not getting better' that is to my way of thinking not an adequate process to sentence someone to an early death, Doctor's are wrong (and sometimes inept) a staggering number of times, I have had nurses tell me people often can live long long after some doctor's thumbs down in some cases many years. And too there is the legal question when one person or persons take it upon themselves to play god and end the life of another WITHOUT their consent it may very well be classified as homocide.
edit on 31-3-2012 by Tecumte because: sp.



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