Vatican exposures: Catholic ATS members? What say you?

Originally posted by Akragon
BTW i have no interest in Revelation... its a waste of time.

DITTO. Well .. I do know what it says and could have a conversation about it ... but what it says is irrelevant. Even Polycarp rejected Revelation .. and that's saying a lot. The stablility of the author is in question. And it has nothing to do with salvation.

Originally posted by wildtimes

1) It's common knowledge. I've posted one source three times already in this thread.
The Crusades.
The Inquisition.
The invasions all over the bloody place.


2) So you show ME where the Roman Catholic Church is innocent.

I'm hesitant to get into this again as it started a back and forth that seemed to get ugly quick, but:

1) Your source doesn't back up your claim in the OP.

2) I don't know why you do this. You did this to me as well. Flyer's Fan didn't claim that the Catholic Church was innocent. You are setting up a false argument. When I pointed this out before you considered the claim of a straw man argument being that of pseudo intellectuals.

Eric

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by cloudyday
I think every communion is the body and blood of Jesus regardless of the beliefs of the people or the qualifications of the priest/pastor.

The protestants ... with the exception of the Episcopalians .. totally disagree with you.
They believe it's a symbol.
Catholics believe it's the actual Body and Blood of Christ.
Catholics WORSHIP the Eucharist. Protestants believe that worship is blasphemy.

When you receive communion in the Catholic church, it's a public declaration that you are fully in communion with the beliefs of the church. If you don't believe what the Catholic church believes, then you shouldn't be receiving communion in it. Ditto the protestant church for Catholics .. if you receive communion in the protestant church then you (the catholic) are stating you are in communion (full agreement) with that protestant church.

I know that you are stating the view of the Church and that's been their view for a long time. I'm sure that's why the Nicene Creed comes before communion in the liturgy (at least in the Orthodox liturgy that I'm familiar with). I just don't like it, because I think communion is about the believer reconciling to Jesus and nothing should distract us from that fact. I don't like the Orthodox Church either for this reason.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by colbe

 

Hi, colbe.

I make my responses the way I do so that it's easier to see just what I'm replying to. If that's too confusing, I can try leaving the quotes out altogether and see how that goes.

I do have a question - why would "prophets" of non-Catholic religions "gently point" to the "remnant" being Roman Catholic? Would it not be a better statement if they just went ahead and publicly converted? Why are they not converting, but instead proclaiming Roman Catholicism to be the "One Way", yet remaining in error themselves?

I postulate that the reason for that is either you are misunderstanding what they are saying, or they are false prophets. A true prophet would run directly to where he thought he would find God, no?

I don't know who or what this Darby person is. I tried reading some of the alleged "messages", but found that they all claimed to be from Mary, and so had to discount them out of hand. In any event, they seemed not to be glorifying God so much as they were glorifying the pope, and attempting to herd the unsuspecting into his coffers with threats of some unspecified violence to be visited on them from God if they didn't get with the papal program.

Not me. I'll take my lightning strike, please, without delay. I will never forsake God to follow the Pope, because God has never forsaken me.

In the Bible it is written that in the end times a strong delusion will be sent to lead the unsuspecting astray, and it says that delusion would be strong enough to fool even the Elect, if that were possible. (Mt.24:24, Mk.13:22)

But it's not possible. The Elect will see through it, every time. There are a thousand ways to see through the delusion, and the Bible is the guide that will show what to look for, so that a firm grounding in it will keep the Elect from following false prophets. They are the "remnant", regardless of which denomination they find themselves in.

According to Mt. 24:40 and 41, the remnant will be gathered from all over, and only the elect in any particular group will be taken, the rest left behind. I have no doubt that Roman Catholicism may be one of those groups, but it is not the only one, nor is being in it any sort of guarantee that one is among the Elect. People will be saved in spite of Catholicism, not because of it, the same as for Protestantism - they will be saved in spite of their denomination, not because of it.

No one can get to heaven on a technicality or through a loophole.

neno,

Your kindly replies but...

How come you can't underline and reply in order? Then everyone
see's the other person's post in full. You have a great question...

It's pride, God can't be explicit with our brothers and sisters in Christ
yet. They are indoctrinated with anti-Catholicism. Messages from Heaven now are pointing to the Truth but the Great Warning will be something quite different. You will be shown your life in review, things
no one knows but you. That's miraculous. The Warning will reveal
the evil of the anti-Christ and without a doubt, Catholicism is the true
faith. Why do Protestants ignore Our Lord cannot return to say believe
what you want, pick between the 38,000 sects. No, God has always
desired oneness of belief.

Your answers are Protestant, anti-Mary. You believe there are prophets but can't accept God would send His mother to help humanity. And there
is 200 years record of her appearances. So...all Catholic testimony
is false? All those Christians are making it up?

You reject the Bible is a Catholic book, so you're already experiencing
a delusion. The "strong delusion" is further rejection of the Truth, going
with the anti-Christ and his persecution of the true faith, Catholicism.

The "some will be taken" supposed Rapture verse is about death.
The rest of the supposed Rapture verse are about the Final Judgment.
Look closely, the last trump is blown and the dead shall rise.

Do not reject the 2nd Pentecost, the Great Warning. Say...I want the
Catholic Eucharist, Jesus states this is how you abide in Me and I in you.
He is going to show you personally.



love,

colbe

"And there is 200 years record of her appearances. So...all Catholic testimony is false? All those Christians are making it up?"

Darn, bad grammar and the wrong number of years typed, I was in a hurry and didn't proof my words.


It should read...."is a 2000 year"...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Afterthought
By the way, where in the Bible does it state that Catholicism is the chosen religion?

Start at Matthew 16:18-19. Go to ACTS and see apostolic succession.
So ...

... back atchya. Try reading the bible sometime.

I looked up the Matthew reference, and it said this:

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Challoner Revision)

I don't see the part where it says the Roman Catholic Church is "the chosen religion". Could you point it out there? Is it perhaps in a different version of the Bible rather than the Catholic Douay-Rheims version?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

So how do YOU reason around the pedophile atrocities in the public schools and in the protestant churches and still remain a tax paying American and/or protestant Christian?

We jail them when we catch them, rather than just shuffling them around to a new hunting ground.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by nenothtu
The bible was in existence long before the Catholic Church.

That simply is not true. The Catholic church was formed at the last supper of Christ.
Authority was given Peter before that ... Matthew 16:18-19 ... to lead the Church.
The gospels weren't written until long after both of those events.
The Catholic Church celebrates it's birthday as The Last Supper.

Untrue. There was no mention of a "Roman Catholic Church" at the Last Supper - at least not in any of the biblical versions at my disposal, which is a considerable number. If you have a specific version that states that, I'll be happy to be corrected.

I've already posted the listed quote, directly from the Catholic version of the Bible. It doesn't mention the Roman Catholic Church, either.

As far as the "birthday" goes, I have a friend who celebrates 10 October, the day the Marine Corps was formed, as his own birthday - but there is no evidence to support that date as the actual day he was born. His birth certificate has another day listed on it altogether. Celebration of a "birthday" is evidence of nothing at all beyond a desire to party.

There are Apostolic letters in existence - even included in the Bible - to Churches other than the Roman one. If that was the only true church, why were the Apostles bothering with letters of encouragement to the others? If that was the Church Jesus authorized at the Last Supper, why did he not say so, and why did he hold that Supper in Jerusalem? He could have been crucified in Rome just as easily, and probably with more publicity. If he were speaking of the Roman Church only, why did the Apostles go outside his authorization and encourage other churches?

reply to post by colbe


So these alleged "non Catholic prophets" are too prideful to convert to Catholicism, but NOT too prideful to preach that it is the only road to heaven? How does that sort of "pride" work? If I believe that there is only one way to God, you can bet I'm going to be standing in THAT line! Why does their "pride" prevent them from acting on their own preaching?

Why do you believe that "God cannot be explicit"? he's a GOD - what else is He incapable of in your mind?

Yes, I'm "anti-Mary" in the sense that the Catholic Church is promoting her. She is Mary, mother of Jesus, and to be held in high regard on that account, but NOT elevated to godhood herself. She is not part of the Godhead, whether one believe in a Trinity or a Unity, neither includes Mary.

No, I don't think all Catholics that think they have seen and spoken to her are "liars", although I'm sure some of them are. Others most likely sincerely believe they have interacted with her, and are deluded or delusional. One can be very sincere, and yet be sincerely WRONG.

Mohammed seems to have sincerely believed he interacted with the angle Jibreel over the course of several years - that doesn't mean that I believe he did, and I put many of these alleged "apparitions" of Mary into the same category.

Whether or not I believe there ARE prophets depends on what you would include in the capabilities pf prophethood. I don't believe that there are any prophets any more who predict future events, as there is no longer any need.

As far as the "some will be taken" verses allegedly representing "death", that is not what it says. The full quote makes plain that it is referring to the second Coming. I give you the full quote here:

35 Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass. 36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone. 37 And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, 39 And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 42 Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come. Matthew 24:35-42 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Challoner Revision)

I do not want the Catholic Eucharist. If, as you say, Jesus is going to show me personally that I do, I'll just wait on him to do so rather than jump the gun on your word. so far, he's always kept me wide of it, but I suppose he can always change his mind.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Untrue. There was no mention of a "Roman Catholic Church" at the Last Supper - at least not in any of the biblical versions at my disposal, which is a considerable number. If you have a specific version that states that, I'll be happy to be corrected.

The Bible also doesn't mention sola scripture, but most Protestants share that belief. The lack of a specific naming of a term in the Bible doesn't negate it's possible existence.


Eric

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by nenothtu

Untrue. There was no mention of a "Roman Catholic Church" at the Last Supper - at least not in any of the biblical versions at my disposal, which is a considerable number. If you have a specific version that states that, I'll be happy to be corrected.

The Bible also doesn't mention sola scripture, but most Protestants share that belief. The lack of a specific naming of a term in the Bible doesn't negate it's possible existence.


Eric

You're right - it doesn't negate the possibility, but such absence is a far cry from a smoking gun confirmation as well.

Matthew 24: 39-42
And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 42 Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come. (Douay-Rheims Bible, Challoner Revision)

Originally posted by nenothtu

...I do not want the Catholic Eucharist. If, as you say, Jesus is going to show me personally that I do, I'll just wait on him to do so rather than jump the gun on your word. so far, he's always kept me wide of it, but I suppose he can always change his mind.

edit on 2012/3/25 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

In response to your comment on Mary, I haven't heard a Protestant yet hold Mary in "high regard" as you say, in fact you question and doubt her appearing to the world to bring souls to her Son. It's a mistake to be anti-Mary. Choose to love the mother, love the Son. There is more than
"it's Jesus and me."

neno said:

"According to Mt. 24:40 and 41, the remnant will be gathered from all over, and only the elect in any particular group will be taken, the rest left behind. I have no doubt that Roman Catholicism may be one of those groups, but it is not the only one, nor is being in it any sort of guarantee that one is among the As far as the "some will be taken" verses allegedly representing "death", that is not what it says. The full quote makes plain that it is referring to the second Coming. I give you the full quote here:"

You changed your personal interpretation, you were talking about the Rapture in regards to "some will be taken" in your previous post. Now you say the two verse are about the Final Judgement. I stated, all the so called Rapture verses but Matthew 24: 40- 41 refer to the Final Judgment not the Rapture. At the Final Judgment, everyone is going to be judged,
not "left behind."

Protestants are here to disagree and that's all you've done. It's not my "word", the messages from Heaven state Jesus is going to reveal to the entire world the Eucharist is true.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by nenothtu

Untrue. There was no mention of a "Roman Catholic Church" at the Last Supper - at least not in any of the biblical versions at my disposal, which is a considerable number. If you have a specific version that states that, I'll be happy to be corrected.

The Bible also doesn't mention sola scripture, but most Protestants share that belief. The lack of a specific naming of a term in the Bible doesn't negate it's possible existence.


Eric

You're right - it doesn't negate the possibility, but such absence is a far cry from a smoking gun confirmation as well.

I am smiling, you say "untrue", asking for Scriptural confirmation neno because you reject the authority of the Church who gave you your Bible. You accept a man's heresy, Sola Scriptura, then it's true, asking where are the words RCC in Scripture?

See how ridiculous....

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by colbe

 

So these alleged "non Catholic prophets" are too prideful to convert to Catholicism, but NOT too prideful to preach that it is the only road to heaven? How does that sort of "pride" work? If I believe that there is only one way to God, you can bet I'm going to be standing in THAT line! Why does their "pride" prevent them from acting on their own preaching?

Why do you believe that "God cannot be explicit"? he's a GOD - what else is He incapable of in your mind?

I underlined, more of your personal insults, makes you look less, better to to discuss and leave them out.

I'll try to explain once more. God can't share with you through Protestant prophecy that the Remnant is Roman Catholic. He knows of your bias, He can only gently direct you to the faith in Protestant prophecy at present.

The above, in the same reply is proof, you rejected Catholic Marian prophecy. Do you see why He can't be "specific" yet?

It has to be something miraculous! The Great Warning.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I don't see the part where it says the Roman Catholic Church is "the chosen religion". Could you point it out there?

I already did. Matthew 16:18-19. Christ Himself appoints Peter the head of HIS Church. Whatever he says .. goes on both earth and in heaven. Then in ACTS there is apostolic succession. The headship of the church CHRIST started continues. That church is the CATHOLIC CHURCH with an unbroken line of apostolic succession ... goes back to Christ Himself.

We jail them when we catch them, rather than just shuffling them around to a new hunting ground.

And those FEW that were involved should be jailed. But again .. it doesn't change the FAITH ... it doesn't change the beliefs of the church that Christ rose from the dead ... the belief in the Eucharist ... the belief in the Communion of Saints .. etc

Originally posted by nenothtu
There was no mention of a "Roman Catholic Church" at the Last Supper -

You didn't just say that did you? Yes? My god you are silly.

Again ... Christ appointed Peter as head of His church. Whatever Peter says .. goes. At the last supper Christ gave the commandment 'do this in memory of me' .. he ordained his first priests. PETER, the head of Christ's church, in ACTS decided on apostolic succession. You don't like it? Take it up with Christ. He set this all in motion.

ETA -

Originally posted by nenothtu
Yes, I'm "anti-Mary" in the sense that the Catholic Church is promoting her. She is Mary, mother of Jesus, and to be held in high regard on that account, but NOT elevated to godhood herself.

Catholics do NOT elevate Mary to the godhead.
Read and learn , young grasshopper.

reply to post by FlyersFan

(self) educated you think you are are then highly suspect and unreliable.

Rude.
My MASTERS degree is in psychology and social work.

You and Eric keep wanting to make this a semantic pissing contest. Fine, I'm done arguing the finer points of hyperbole with you. It doesn't matter if the Church killed 10 people or 100 million, they have KILLED MANY PEOPLE in the name of Christ. ANY KILLING in the name of Christ is WRONG. Inexcusable. And to harp on my use of poetic license is DERAILING the point of the thread to begin with (rather humorously).

I respect your Carmelite background, but I deeply dislike your arrogant condescension. So you have an even deeper indoctrination that colbe or other Sunday-morning Catholics. Congrat you freaking lations. No wonder you're so quick to nitpick in your lame defense of your beloved Church.

Yes, I read what you write. I am in the habit of reading people's ENTIRE POSTS, and PAYING ATTENTION to what they are saying and how they are expressing themselves. Some members see one sentence or phrase, extract it, and begin foaming at the mouth.

Fine. I need a bejillion dollars. Do you want to argue about a "bejillion" being hyperbole?

Yes, I am anti-Catholic - BECAUSE I am ANTI-CORRUPTION, -ABUSE, -EXPLOITATION, -CHICANERY, -FRAUD, -HYPOCRISY, -GREED, -OPPRESSION and -TERRORISM. You rid the RCC of those vices, and I'll be fine with them. You know psychology? Then you know what I'm talking about AND you know what they did to YOUR brain.

Go right ahead. Call your Carmelite pals. You're an insider, DO SOMETHING. Yep, I'm anti-Catholic, you betcha. And the more I interact with them (of whatever "sort" you are), I like them even less. In fact, I feel that part of my spiritual journey, my mssion in this lifetimes, is to dissuade people from the RCC, because it is a dangerous, corrupt, and soul-SUCKING cult of utter depravity and superstitious nonsense cloaked in "fear" and "salvation."

My "education" holds every bit as much weight as it needs to, or I would not be here shooting off my mouth about it.

So, quit with your freaking attitude, all right? Yeah, tolerance my narrow ass.
Self-righteous much?

Back the hell off the thread or discuss politely. Those are your choices. I don't back down from attacks, and you'll never convince me the Catholic Church is a good thing.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Crusades - there were 9 crusades and the top end estimate of dead because of them is 200,000
The Inquisition - Two major Inquisitions - about 6,500 dead

This is something I can never get my head around

Ok so I can understand someone believing something – and as long as they have the good taste to keep it to themselves who would care

But it must be sign that your cheese has fallen off your cracker when you start killing people who don’t believe in your invisible friend?

And the church killing anybody comes across as been a bit un-Jesusy

So how do Catholics justify any death caused by their church?



Oh and about the death toll – without access to the records which as I understand it are kept hidden in the Vatican library or they have been destroyed – then the true number killed by the church is anybody’s guess

reply to post by racasan


why don't we focus on more current issues... what is in the past that can be repaired?

the world looks alot different currently when yo go outside and look at it

it's like some story people keep telling each other to keep them horrified or something?

entertaining at any rate...

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Crusades - there were 9 crusades and the top end estimate of dead because of them is 200,000
The Inquisition - Two major Inquisitions - about 6,500 dead

This is something I can never get my head around

Ok so I can understand someone believing something – and as long as they have the good taste to keep it to themselves who would care

But it must be sign that your cheese has fallen off your cracker when you start killing people who don’t believe in your invisible friend?

And the church killing anybody comes across as been a bit un-Jesusy

So how do Catholics justify any death caused by their church?



Oh and about the death toll – without access to the records which as I understand it are kept hidden in the Vatican library or they have been destroyed – then the true number killed by the church is anybody’s guess

atheist only seem to talk about invisible unicorns... and they can't even figure those out!

what a joke lol!

lets see how many people has Pol Pot taken out in a relatively short time? Because he was his peoples god and got to decide life and death?

is all we have to bet the dead bodies of both sides? pretty simple and quite desperate if you ask me...