do u think jesus lived?

reply to post by thebestnr1

Wasnt your main link a wikipedia link? Im not sure which would be the least reliable here.

reply to post by Alythea


not really
i just added that cuz somebody thought i should add alink(cant blame him)
and im still neutral on the topic
not trying to say yey or ney
just trying to get some reliable sources and or opinions on the topic
but so far family guy lozes to the wiki leaks
imo[ in my opinion)

www.youtube.com... this is a comedian bashing religion

There is no doubt that Jesus lived and was a real person. There is far to many accounts of him outside of Christianity to say otherwise. There were Roman census records of him (not birth records) which were lost over time, I can't find details of them on the internet, so some help in tracing info would be appreciated (Census of Quirinius?).

But yeah, son of god or not, crucified or not, the man existed, Jewish, Christian, Muslim/Islam and other non religious sources prove this, as long as you are willing to go with non-solid evidence.

Originally posted by woogleuk
There is no doubt that Jesus lived and was a real person. There is far to many accounts of him outside of Christianity to say otherwise.

Actually there aren't. There are very few non-biblical accounts of Jesus and they were all written almost a century after his supposed death, so they are just stories that these historians have heard. They could be pure fiction (lies spread by new cult members), we can't tell for sure.

The question becomes not whether Christianity (or any of the other main religions for that matter) is true but why so many people continue to believe in a religion that is illogical, incoherent, contradictory, incredible, ludicrous and whose myriad failings have been highlighted in endless books. The answer is simple. People will believe anything if it gives them a “system” with which they feel comfortable. Christianity provides people with a moral framework, a history, a community, a worldwide family, a hope of eternal life, a hope of paradise. Above all, it gives them an identity. The fact that the religion is unbelievable and manifestly false is neither here nor there as far as they are concerned. To abandon Christianity is a step so terrifying to Christians that the vast majority will never take it. Those who do lapse from Christianity are those who never fully engaged with it in the first place, hence their identity was not defined by it. Once your identity is exclusively defined by a religion you’re in real trouble because to abandon your religion is to lose your identity.

This might be of use:

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

and this:

Non-Christian References to the Trial of Jesus

I believe a man named Jesus walked the Earth preaching peace, love, unity and respect.

There is a brilliant movie entitled "The Man from Earth" which essentially is the story of a cro-magnon man who has lived for 14,000 years. Without spoiling too much of it he describes how he once WAS Jesus. He had studied under the Buddha and loved what he had to say so he brought the Buddha's teachings Westward to try and pass them on - but everything was distorted (including his name which somehow ended up as 'Jesus') in Western fashion.

History is filled with warriors, truth-seekers & lovers.

Originally posted by Azadok

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
Virtually nothing is known about Jesus Christ. Outside of the Gospels, the few historical sources that seemingly refer to him are so vague or ambiguous that they may not be about him at all. Several researchers have concluded that he doesn't exist at all beyond the pages of the New Testament. He is a fabrication, a fiction, they say. However, these researchers would have equal difficulties with many other figures whom no one doubts existed. For instance, outside of the Gospels there is almost no mention of Pontius Pilate, the Roman Governor of Judea. It might be expected that a Roman Governor's life would be well documented, but this is simply not the case.

The Gospels are full of contradictions, inconsistencies and improbabilities, leaving ample scope for innumerable heresies to spring up. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, but none of his teachings have been preserved in that language. We are always dealing with translations and translations of translations. Ambiguity and inaccuracy are inevitable.

My guess is he is fictional or maybe real, just not the son of a non existent god.

edit on 19-3-2012 by TheCelestialHuman because: (no reason given)

I think you are out and out lying with this statement , not only is the record provided by non Christian parties very clear it is easily googled and found . The time it took you to write this lie I could have copied a half dozen sites . This site below lists several non Christian sources .www.provethebible.net...

The Antiquities of the Jews was written 93-94 AD

PLINIUS SECUNDUS (Pliny the Younger) letter was written 112 AD

GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLAS was written 120 AD

LUCIAN was written 120 AD

THE TALMUD was written between 70-200 AD

ACCORDING TO YOUR SOURCE,,,,,,(this hardly counts as proof of his existence)

Furthermore, since THIS is what is being presented as proof of existence by a "bible-thumping" website, how can one NOT be skeptical??????

I do not believe this man existed as he is depicted,,,,,,I tend to lean toward the whole,,,, Julius Ceaser (God) , Cleopatra "Isis" (Virgin Mother) , Julius Cesarean "JC" (Son of God) scenario

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Jesus was apparently one of a number of "Messiahs" recognised by the Jewish Messiah cults of the time.
Before him; "John" (AKA John the Baptist) was the messiah - do you ever wonder why John Baptised the "Son of the God" ...seems a bit strange that a normal man would Baptise Gods only son.
SNIP

How did Christianity, a religion where the Romans killed the messiah, become the overiding religion of the Roman Empire in such a short time???

If you think it's because the Romans allowed people to do as they please...you need to read up on Rome.

Those who understood scripture knew that their Messiah was due per scripture. They studied it daily and prayed. They were found waiting.

John the Baptist's father was a priest and therefore a Levite. The Levitical priesthood annointed Kings and were the only ones allowed to enter into the inner Holy of Holies within the temple. I hope that you can now understand why he was the one to baptise the Messiah.

Christianity is the belief and Faith in Christ Jesus. The Roman Centurian in Luke 23:47- "So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this was a righteous Man!"" Now how could a Roman Centurian come to glorify God? Because He was an Israelite. If you do not understand that Jesus came to gather the House of Israel and the House of Judah together under one shepherd, how are you supposed to understand why the gospel message needed to be taken to the ends of the Earth? By then the long dispersed Israelites from both Houses were spread everywhere in the empire as it existed then. The Roman Catholic Church served God's purposes - not as the "official" Church of God which they claim for themselves - but as an entity to reach that Israel all over the Roman world in that day, to bring us the Holy Scriptures. There were men of Faith in the early days who accomplished His purposes. However, what it grew to become was a beast who killed in the name of God and a beast that ignored the will of God.

You say that the Romans killed Christ. What did Jesus say to Pilate in John 19:11 "You would have had no power whatever over me," replied Jesus, "had it not been granted you from above. On that account he who has delivered me up to you is more guilty than you are." Jesus declared to Pilate that his position was given to Him by God and that everything had been orchestrated by God. However, that the Jews who handed Him over were guilty of a far greater sin - the rejection of the Messiah. And God used the Roman Army not 40 years later to pass judgement on Jerusalem by destroying it and killing a million plus. Nearly every single Christian survived.

God is Sovereign and He accomplishes His will by using and directing enemies against enemies - the wicked against the wicked. He chooses our leaders, leading them around with hooks in their jaws. See, they plot and plan in vain, thinking that they are doing their own will but in reality everything will serve His purposes. We may not understand it ourselves. Most won't because they've become intoxicated by money, greed, pride, power, self. So an organisation like the RCC served it's purpose then lost it's strangle hold on lives when scripture was made public. How many millions fled Europe to a new life in the west so that they could experience worship without fear? God did that. Most of us descended from them. But what's happened now? He clothed us, He fed us, then we grew fat and lazy and prideful..... and then we forgot Him.

There truly is nothing new under the Sun. He's bringing the wicked against the western nations because of it. Judgement starts in His House. The question He always asks in scripture is of the utmost importance today - will you repent, will you have a change of heart and mind towards His Sovereignty or not? If yes He will lift you up out of the blindness and darkness and place you into the Light of Christ so that you may see and hopefully not stumble. Mens hearts in the western nations are going to start failing because of fear of what's coming, because of no understanding.

Outside of our time, it's as if we've already been through this somehow. He put His Saviour into the world and His message and those who accept the gospel and obey it come through. It may be through death of the body like many others, but not of the Spirit. If there is the love of truth in your heart, and a sense of justice, seek Him for your answers. Everything right now in our society tells you not to, that He is a fairy tale, that Jesus never existed. But if the love of Truth is in you, you will come to your Faith in Him. It might be next year or next week or never. But He is there for He is a God of the living. Only He can give you Jesus, not me. The world certainly won't for it's purpose is to keep you ignorant and distracted, to keep you from ever claiming the forgiveness of sins that the early Apostles eagerly preached to their brethren.

reply to post by woogleuk

 

This might be of use:

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

thanks, that page synopsis is less tedious than other references

Yeshua was remembered as being hanged / crucified because of his Sorcery & Magic practices
which were detrimental to the religious-political status-quo of the Jews living in the Roman occupied Palestine


but even that blurb is second hand hearsay, there are no court records of Pilates' legal decision

reply to post by thebestnr1


"The Jewish Historian Thallus around 52AD said that there was a darkness over the land, but he tried to explain it away that it was just a solar eclipse. The Christian Historian Julius Africanus who was familiar with Thallus works explains to us that it cant be because the moon was full at passover.

Grant it that we don't have the works of Thallus anymore, but the writings of Julius Africanus we have, and Thallus was a known Roman historian but his works have been lost to us. "

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

I truly believed he walked the earth and maybe you could ask a loved one who has gone before us, because last week I asked my father to come visit and tell me about heaven and he came to visit my daughter and he told her a story about Jesus. She said that Jesus died and on the third day he was alive again and many more but she forgot and I don't know if it will help you but its really what resonates with you and I feel that no religion has it right because man has way of twisting things.

Originally posted by thebestnr1
and why did they base our calender on a fictional person

The Western Calendar was originally developed by Caesar and was called the Julian calendar. Caesar was not Christian, and as such, our calendar was not based upon Christ. It must be noted, however, that our calendar was slightly altered.

Now to Jesus:

Yes, i believe he existed. As for his death though:

He could have survived. The soldier peircing Christ's side with the spear was not uncommon. It was used to relieve pressure in the lungs, to extend the victims life on the crucifix, adding to increased torture.

Furthermore, when Jesus was supplied the herbs, or whatever, they could have been used to have a knockout effect, so Jesus would pass out. When chucked in the tomb, he could then regain consciousness.

he lives... Jesus has a public access show in south park colorado


truth

reply to post by spaceg0at



I also see him around the city begging for money, or playing the guitar

Originally posted by Lasr1oftheJedi
I don't need hyperlinks to prove the fact that Jesus lived. It's easliy googable. The facts are that the Romans, some of the best record keepers ever have a wealth of documentation to the life and death of Jesus. Not only that, but the Jews of the time also recorded a wealth of documentation of the "trouble maker" that Jesus became for them. New ideas that really are simply professing the truth in old ideas always seems to be hard to swallow. Mankind is a stubborn being that way.

And for it all being forged as part of a Roman plot, that motion didn't carry until Constintine, so I find it hard to believe that while Nero lit his backyard with christians that he also had forged the divinity of Christ. The facts are you can deny the divinty of Jesus, but to deny the fact that he existed isn't even possible. There are more records of his deeds and life outside of scripture than there are of Ceaser.

So basicly, if you call the documents of the Romans a lie, then you could easily also say that Ceaser never lived, nor Cleopatria. For Jesus has more documentation, more writen proof of his life than both these souls combined.

Whilst that is all true there are also Roman records of other people from the area who also (earlier) claimed to be the Son of God. Therefore Roman records only demonstrate that there was someone fitting this description at this time frame - it proves his existence rather than anything else.

Personally, i think one of the first posters had it right - there was someone fitting the name and description at the time who had some pretty revolutionary ideas (for the time) about how we should live and get on.

Interesting link...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I believe that Yeshua (later translated as Jesus) IS alive...

Now, I know that people will scoff, and that is their prerogative, but this is my FAITH...

I also would like to ask this question, if it is true that the Romans were fond of unimaginable cruelty and barbaric punishment of anybody that they considered a nuisance or threat to their rule, and knowing this to be true from historical evidence (gladiatorial combat, feeding people to animals, crucifixion and torture etc. etc.) ... how many people here, if they were living in those times, would keep documents containing the teachings and sayings of a man that they had seen crucified for His 'crimes'... ???

I know that, for myself, I would be doubtful whether I would or not, facing such imminent torture/death. I would venture a guess though, that the vast majority of people would not utter a word about such a person if it meant their own, and possibly their families lives were put at risk in so doing.

As for the Romans keeping ACCURATE records of their punishment and torture of people, this is something that cannot be proven. We know they kept records, we do not truly have any way of declaring their records to be ACCURATE.

I also thoroughly believe that Yeshua made it clear to His followers that he was indeed 'The Messiah' when He asked His followers to tell Him who they/people said He was... Matthew 16:16 KJV "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." To which Yeshua replied, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17.

I realise that I have quoted the Bible, and I am fully prepared for people to mock me for this. There is, however, NO doubt at all in my mind/heart/soul that Yeshua is alive and is God's Son and the saviour of mankind.

I think that there is no doubt that Jesus (Joshua in modern English) really existed. I found "King Jesus" by Robert Graves a very plausible interpretation of his life and of how he really could have the legitimate king of the Jews, descended from king David. "The Passover Plot" by Hugh Schonfeld stirred up a lot of controversy when it was published for its alternative view of Jesus.
However, the most influential books that I have read concerning Jesus and the early Christian movement are those by Australian theologian Barbara Thiering, who has been much vilified by conventional theologians. However, I have seen no reasoned rebuttal of her thesis and since it is one that appears to cohere (in the sense that it provides a logical sequence of life events and narrative that welds the New Testament story to contemporary documents from the Dead Sea Scrolls library) I tend to think that her work will eventually provide the basis for a radical re-interpretation of jesus and his significance. One of the most important 'truths' that emanate from the book is an absolutely logical interpretation of Revelations - a book that has been notoriously difficult to understand.
I fundamentally reject the concept that Jesus was God in a human form - this is a concept that is completely foreign to my understanding of God and one that I think was grafted onto Judaism to enable it to be more palatable and acceptable to non-Jews.

do u think jesus lived?

Do I think a man called Jesus lived? My answer is yes.
Do I think a (man, the son of God) called Jesus "Christ", lived? My answer is no.

reply to post by BrianOrion

We have endured two thousand years of Christianity (the unholy creed that says you are damned to hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour), fourteen hundred years of Islam ("We love death more than you love life."), thousands of years of the Jews (the self-proclaimed "Chosen People"). Is the world a good and decent place because of these religions? Have they delivered societies of which humanity can be proud? Only the blindest fools would continue to pledge their allegiance to these failed religions. Of course, they haven't failed - they have achieved the divisive will of the Demiurge perfectly. They are the roots of all evil. Abraham, the man who was prepared to kill his son simply because Yahweh told him to, was a psychopath and everyone who is proud to follow his three tyrannical religions is equally deranged.
The most intelligent people on earth are atheists, agnostics and gnostics while the least intelligent are the followers of the Abrahamic religions (particularly Islam and Fundamentalist Christianity). The more backward and primitive a nation is the more likely it is to turn to the Abrahamic faiths. There are virtually no atheists, agnostics or gnostics in the most stupid nations of the world. There are none in Afghanistan. Faith in Abrahamic religions and intelligence are inversely correlated. A vicious circle is activated. You need intelligence to escape the mind control of the Abrahamic faiths, but if you are under their mind control you will never acquire the necessary intelligence. These faiths have no interest at all in intelligence. Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, declared, "Reason is the Devil's whore." That sums up the attitude of the Abrahamic faiths to logic and intelligence.