Can Machines think?

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by andersensrm

 

if we built it...it didn't create itself.

its a machine. you keep saying that...and until it can create itself...it'll end up at the recycling facility the same as the machines of today after we've built better machines.

so, no...never will it be treated as a life. why? because it is a machine and is not alive.

until it can reproduce itself...it is NOT alive.

OP...have you ever Googled the biological definition of what it means to be ALIVE? did you even sit in a freshman level biology class?

sorry for repeating myself...but its obvious that you need to be told machines aren't alive and until they can exist without any human interference they will always be a machine.

machines will never have rights...and never be treated with the same regard as human beings.

OP...i'm getting ready to toss my calculator in the garbage for no other reason than because you started this idiotic thread.

lets see what happens to me as a result.

edit on 19-3-2012 by michaelbrux because: elaboration

"Until they can exist without any human interference they will always be a machine" thats what I'm talking about and you skipped right over it. When they can reproduce themselves, without interaction from us. If you think I'm talking about current technology I've already explained that I'm not, so maybe you need to sit in a freshman english class. I don't care about your calculator. When the machine "can exist without any human interference" is it still a machine, or is it alive. You've already implied that it is no longer a machine and alive, so you do have an opinion on such an idiotic subject.

There are already 3d printers capable of printing themselves => satori.hubpages.com... There's another group building a new version of their DIY 3d printer that they are hoping will be capable of printing it's own circuit boards in addition to all the plastic bits it needs to run.

Someone already mentioned it but I think we'll see the "at what point does a mechanically augmented person stop being human" argurment become relevant long before we see independant, self-learning robots capable of reproducing, arguing philosophy/morals and feeling sadness/joy/depression etc.

An anime movie called Ghost in the Shell explored this idea, it does my head in everytime I think about it...if all your body parts including brain are replaced with machine parts, yet you retain your own awareness, emotions, memories and thought processes, are you still human? What about the soul? Where does it go and did it ever even exist?

There is a real differenc between a Human programing a computer on how to act or respond or even learn....the Human Brain is working on a level...granted only about 10% capacity...that allows us to relize our existance.

This is achieved on a sub-atomic scale or Quantum Level....we are and have been working on Quantum Computers for some time. Split Infinity

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by intrptr

 

How does the computer im using right now "know" what i want it to do and then do what i ask it to do? because of its memory? and is memory and knowledge the same? Humans would'nt be able to think of anything without our knowledge,our memories and so is the computer i'm using now actually thinking? I dont know,i'm getting a little tired from "thinking about thinking" and i think i'm starting to ramble a little,or maybe i just think i am?

edit on 20-3-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

At least you "know" you are tired. A computers memory is not but a vast array of stored "bits", i.e., "1"s and "0"s. Think of a light switch on a wall. On is one and off is zero. Clicking the switch of and on a billion times a second is one "GigaHertz" A long line of ports string these ones and zeros out in a very specific "programmed" fashion. If just one Glitch occurs the whole "symphony" of reading data from addresses and presenting it in "character" form for you to read and type will "crash". The computer must work exactly as programmed by humans without missing one single "1" or "0" or else... gibberish. Total failure. There is no room for error.

To be true there are "error routines" that can "fix" certain anomalies. But that is only as far as input and output go. CPU or core programming bugs in OS for instance are fatal. Power off and reboot. If the problem recurs it is a "bug" that needs revision. The computer does not "think". Memory is only grids of stored "1"s and "0"s. These are stored and retrieved in strings that "equate" to higher and higher forms of data until reaching your keyboard or screen. When you type an A, the computer translates that "A" into "1s" and "0"s that are stored at a memory "location" (in a grid). Nothing more or less. As far as the computer is concerned the difference between an A and any other "character" is simply a different combination of "1s" and "0"s at another memory "location".

See? Very simple. Now go to your light switch and rattle out some "1"s and "0"s (Binary Code) and call me in the morning.

reply to post by LordGoofus

if all your body parts including brain are replaced with machine parts, yet you retain your own awareness, emotions, memories and thought processes, are you still human? What about the soul? Where does it go and did it ever even exist?

Emotions are gland secretions. Memory and thinking are synapses, all very human. "Knowing" that you "know" is something entirely different. I know that I know. Computers don't "know" anything. Like your car Knows that it is driving and your computer Knows you are typing. Not so.

The part of me that knows all these things? That is the real me, not flesh and blood. Two different things.

reply to post by intrptr
Hel from Metropolis,Robbie The Robot from Forbidden Planet,The Robot from Lost In Space,Hal 9000 from 2001-A Space Odyssey and C3PO and R2D2 from Star Wars could all think their own thoughts. But will we ever be able to design and build machines such as those and others that are capable of thinking on their own? Maybe if and when we are able to attain the abilities of a Class-2 civilization. Right now were are not even a Class-1 yet,which is a civilization who can maintain and control the natural resources and energy output of their entire planet...

Isaac Asimov-The Three Laws Of Robotics > en.wikipedia.org...

Can Machines think?
What does it mean for humanity?

A video game called Mass Effect 3 was released on March 6, 2012. The conflict in the game comes from the relationship between that of Man (organics) & Machine (reavers).

This is a very old sci-fi cliche that has been done countless times. It's not science fiction any more.

I do not have a degree or qualifications to speak about it with any authority. I know enough that this a deeper subject than most people realize. The study of man & machine is to study the relationships, inputs & outcomes of ever present technologies. It seems very easy at first, but it gets complicated very quickly.

I also know that the subject of artificial life is hugely popular in Japan. We are not alone when we ask these questions about existence... to question our relationship to technology. Just my guess.

i'll ask my toaster.

no, they can't think, but it makes great toast.

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by intrptr

 

Hel from Metropolis,Robbie The Robot from Forbidden Planet,The Robot from Lost In Space,Hal 9000 from 2001-A Space Odyssey and C3PO and R2D2 from Star Wars could all think their own thoughts. But will we ever be able to design and build machines such as those and others that are capable of thinking on their own? Maybe if and when we are able to attain the abilities of a Class-2 civilization. Right now were are not even a Class-1 yet,which is a civilization who can maintain and control the natural resources and energy output of their entire planet...

Isaac Asimov-The Three Laws Of Robotics > en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 20-3-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

You keep forgetting Data, The Terminator and Replicants from "Blade Runner". Based by the way upon the book, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" Still just "concepts" of something that doesn't exist yet. Then there are Autobots, the cartoon "Sentanoids". All still SCI FI... list is endless. Means not to the real world.

Speaking of Real World, the drones that autonomously wipe out wedding parties when left to their own devices. Or allow themselves to be captured by the enemy. Then there are Martian rovers. These are among the most sophisticated devices on the planet. Still don't know spit. Can't be trusted to do anything "sentient". We be crawling as far as robotic baby steps go. Like Asimo:

reply to post by andersensrm


I have been thinking about this for a long time. Machines do have to be programmed to respond to every possible situation, but if we could make a "machine" that could think, learn and create new algorithms the way it wanted to, I think it would be something else. It would be real intelligence instead of artificial intelligence.

A lot of intellectuals think that humans, which are self-aware, are just machines, but this is not the case. Our willpower and creativity and vision of the future is what enables us to try things, learn and create.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
There is a real differenc between a Human programing a computer on how to act or respond or even learn....the Human Brain is working on a level...granted only about 10% capacity...that allows us to relize our existance.

This is achieved on a sub-atomic scale or Quantum Level....we are and have been working on Quantum Computers for some time. Split Infinity

I agree with you, but wasn't going to mention it. I believe in a quantum theory of mind that allows us to be self-aware. We are working on quantum computers... and I don't know enough about them, but depending on how they work, they might be self-aware too, or might become that way down the line at some point.

reply to post by blocula


I concede. You win. Flawless Victory.

Yes

This robot is controlled by the brain of a rat - making it the world's first cyborg rodent.



spectrum.ieee.org...





www.wolframalpha.com...

Originally posted by intrptr

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by intrptr

 

How does the computer im using right now "know" what i want it to do and then do what i ask it to do? because of its memory? and is memory and knowledge the same? Humans would'nt be able to think of anything without our knowledge,our memories and so is the computer i'm using now actually thinking? I dont know,i'm getting a little tired from "thinking about thinking" and i think i'm starting to ramble a little,or maybe i just think i am?

edit on 20-3-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

At least you "know" you are tired. A computers memory is not but a vast array of stored "bits", i.e., "1"s

A persons memory is nothing but stored bits of information flowing into our brains through our five senses and we are accessing that stored information everytime we think and every time we have a thought.Like when someone asks me a question,my brain instantly starts sorting through hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of stored bits of information until its able to access the answer and so our brain is a super computer,or at least very much like the super computer we may one day be able to design,bulid and place into the head of an android,like c3po from star wars...

]

reply to post by intrptr
And the android ash from alien-1979,the android bishop from aliens-1986 and the tin man from the wizard of oz-1939.Although some people confuse androids with cyborgs.Androids are all machine and cyborgs are part machine...

reply to post by andersensrm

This was a long time ago and we've greatly increased our technological capacity. The question I have is this. If we create a machine/computer capable of thinking on its own, is it still a machine or computer or something else entirely?

It's still a machine, but if it is able to actually think and learn for itself, expanding upon it's programming, then you've arguably created artificial intelligence.

It's still a machine, but, that machine, giving the right equipment, could probably recreate itself, and then you'd added reproduction into the mix.

Anyways, a thinking learning computer? Still a program to me, but once it becomes self aware, well, I really dunno.

reply to post by intrptr

The computer must work exactly as programmed by humans without missing one single "1" or "0" or else... gibberish. Total failure. There is no room for error.

Sounds almost like you are describing the human nervous system. You entire body runs on electricity. your brain sends electrical signals to your muscles, organs, whatever. this in itself, is binary, it's either off or on.

Any part of that "network" of connections that fails, causes serious problems. Go drive a 6 inch spike into your brain and see how well your sub routines handle it.

your brain is a massive data bank of interconnected pathways. Your brain holds massive amounts of data, and because of its processing power, can cycle through TONS. But, humans are prone to error, and the nature of how our brain removes things it considers tertiary, means your memories aren't perfect.

Did you know that when you are looking at something, your brain is basically cancelling everything else out, your peripheral vision, you could say, is at a lower frame rate compared to what you are focused on.

Your brain does the same thing

Granted, there does appear to be some information passed down genetically. Some parts of your nervous system are completely automated. Quick, breath normal. Hah, exactly, you can't, the simple act of thinking about your breathing, changes it. It's automated, like your heart and other functions.

But for the rest, it's learned experience, just like a computer being fed information. You adsorb it, bank it, and your brain calls it up when it's relevant. As you add more information, and interact with more people, you create pathways and systems for responding.

It's not that far off from a computer.

the self aware part is the key.

reply to post by chr0naut


An internet search bar doesn't have self recognition though. It doesn't think, it is programmed to do set tasks.

reply to post by intrptr
Then theres the questions...Are we living in a simulated reality? Are we three dimensional holograms existing within someones or somethings virtual reality? that are yet to be answered and if we are,then we are down-loading and up-loading pre-programmed information all the time...

reply to post by andersensrm


Turn things around - could humans be biological computers?

Incidentally, we pull our decisions from a "pool" of preexisting answers. As we learn we add to this pool. A database is a database no matter where it is.

Originally posted by TWISTEDWORDS
reply to post by camus154

 

Here you go a simple function of counting to five written in C#

double[] result = new double[5]
sum =0;
for(int i =0; i < 5;i++)
[
sum += i+1;
result = sum;
sum = 0;
]



Answer: 1,2,3,4,5

There you go a function of counting to five. All of this needed to count to five and you brain can do it so much faster.

As I described to everyone here before, this is a simple function of counting to five. What I was trying to show you all is that it cannot count to six or beyond with this function. So therefore it cannot learn or adapt to a situation. The reason being is the i