What if Heaven and Hell were swapped?

Simple mind play that may expose your own personal thoughts (if you believe in such places) and motivations...

Lets say some sort of contraption was designed and we were able to visit God (or the devil..or both) and we noted that God, the creator of all, the one and same god of the bible, actually existed in a domain of pain, suffering, and eternal torment. He explains that those whom love and follow his word are with him for an eternity..granted, in a tortured and horrific existance, but this allows for clarity of focus on him alone as the creator and all praise goes to him.

You visit Satan and he is living in a literal paradise..people young and happy, love seems the main theme, but also some pretty awesome tech and whatever else. He explains that he decided to leave the creator and instead create a sort of hell of equality and earthly positive feelings towards each other..that they didn't need to bow to him, but rather enjoy one another and the universe as a whole.

You come back..

Who would you then follow?

Do you follow God because he is your creator, or do you follow then the devil because you seek out reward in death as your only motivating factor?



And final question, if you pay someone to be a follower, is that person a follower, or simply an employee?


I understand plenty will be tempted to say "I don't believe in heaven or hell, so ..etc". That is actually not progressing the discussion though..if I had my way, only theists would respond in this thread. I want to not only see their heart, but also make them see their own heart.

This is indeed a difficult question.
I would follow God the creator because I remember watching
a cartoon where the steps to heaven was painful but worth while
and the steps to hell was easy but a regrettable choice.

But if I was absolutely sure of it I would go to hell, hell yea party time (pun intended.)

If I pay someone to be my follower he/she is simply an employee acting as a follower
because they do not have a personal motivation to be a follower it will be a shell of what
you think they are.
Have a nice day/night

Originally posted by foreshadower99
If I pay someone to be my follower he/she is simply an employee acting as a follower
because they do not have a personal motivation to be a follower it will be a shell of what
you think they are.
Have a nice day/night

Thats my general thoughts on the matter also. People follow a religion with the only purpose of getting paid (rewarded) for their effort...not because of anything but. Human greed is a great motivator for salvation I guess.

I may be off on my recollection of exactly what it says but from what I remember reading, the Sumerian texts say basically what you said.

These texts are older than the Bible. According to them, and again, I could be wrong in my recollection, but it says the one we call God, the Creator... wanted us imprisoned. To be slaves. To do exactly as he said and not to have free will. The one we think of as the Devil wanted us to be able to think, to learn. He offered the chance to be on "God's" level of knowledge.

Personally, I'm gonna have to go with the one that offers free will.

What if you just want to be left alone by either gods? Neither one seems to care enough about me to come and speak to me directly so that I can make a better decision on what to do. Instead, I have to trust ancient writings of fallible men. There are so many to pick from, and so many different belief systems.

I care enough about what is true that I don't want to just jump on some bandwagon and follow it because it seems to have the best story. I want to know what is true, not guess or have faith in it to be true. Why is it so hard for a god to come and speak to me, if he/she/it cares so much about me and my eternal existence?

reply to post by Hydroman


I agree 100% with you on wanting to know the truth Hydroman.

Actually this is something I been thinking about a lot. I just want to know what is real and what is true. I am sorry, but one thing that I have learned in life is that when someone tells me not to ask any questions just trust what they say, It is time to start asking questions. I want to do what is right and I want to do what is good, not just for my own benefit but what is best for all of us.

Star and Flag OP for getting the topic started

reply to post by SaturnFX

Good question, reminds me a a little story I heard years ago....
Pagan Dies and Goes to Hell.
A Pagan dies, and to his great surprise finds himself standing before some pearly gates. The guy in charge looks him over before asking, "Can I help you?"

"Where am I?" asks the Pagan.

"Beg your pardon?" the other guy asks. "You're in Heaven, of course." Then, "What is that symbol around your neck, is that a Pentagram?"

"Yes," the Pagan says, touching the Symbol of the Goddess.

So the guy in charge says, "I'm sorry sir, but you must go to Hell. No Pagans allowed here."

So our Pagan friend walks down to Hell, only to find the doors open. He warily goes in and looks around to see beautiful meadows, and animals happily roaming the surrounding woods. "Hmm, so far so good."

A voice behind him made him all but jump out of his skin. "Can I help you?"

"SHEESH! Give a guy a heart attack, why don't you?"

"Ahem... a little too late for that, isn't it?" the guy said with a smile.

"Who are you, anyway?" our friend asks.

"Why, I'm Satan," the other one said with a slight bow.

"Satan?!" said our friend as he started looking around nervously.

"At your service... you're the Pagan guy Pete called us about, right?"

"Pete... oh the guy in Heaven, yes..." he said, eyeing Satan carefully. "What's gonna happen to me now?"

"Well, you can hang out, there's some great fishing going on in the lake beyond these woods, next to those naked women in a Sacred Circle. And, if you follow the road down this way, there's refreshments and a little market not too far and to your right. We have the coldest beer and the finest herbs in Heaven and Earth here, and everything is free.

"Are you serious...?" the Pagan finally asked.

Satan grinned at him innocently. "Why shouldn't I be?" Sudden understanding filled Satan's eyes. "You don't believe the rumors, do you?"

Suddenly, in answer to our friend's growing fear, the vault of the skies opened with a thunderous groan. A soul, plummeting through the sky, screamed in terror, his screams drowned by the opening of a yawning chasm full of fire and brimstone. The stench of sulfur thickened the air. Thousands of howling, suffering, tortured voices echoed through Hell. When the screaming soul finally fell into the pit, the ground shut closed with a sickening thud that rattled the Earth.

Our Pagan friend all but soiled his undies as he yelped in terror. "And what was THAT all about?"

Satan rolled his eyes, and made a dismissive gesture with his hand as he said with a distasteful grimace. "Oh, just ignore that..." He rolled his eyes again. "My Christian guests refuse to have it any other way!"

The reason this is distortion, and it is alot like what various mystery school and occultists post, even some of the para military who write to the abductees or experiencers alot, some of this comes up.

Also they turn Light into something its not as well.

The reason its not like this is, As Above So Below, the school and cosmos is a living library, but you can only unlock the knowledge according to the frequency of Love in your heart. In other words, a Loving Heart rejects all the wars and murder in the Bible and knows that is not God and never was, and yet is drawn to the Great Teachers, ie Christ and Buddha. We don't accept the whole thing. We note that Yeshua told them who their father really was. We know that many words have been added and altered.

But Love also knows this, Hitler, and the SS and the brutal cold fascist negatives cannot understand Love, they can't understand the heart of a child, or a mother, or the beauty of nature, or flowers, or gardens, and the need for beauty in our lives, and warmth.

They can't unlock the library.

They can't see it.

Its so simply and straight forward a small child, can see it.

So the backwards game is just an abboration that elitists embrace because they've bent out of shape inside.

Here with all the coding, we must not confuse people according to the intent of their hearts.

When our memories return its not going to matter what is coded here.

Love will be Love, Goodness, Goodness, Peace, Peace!!!!

I've thought the exact same thing but more about God and the Devil. I look at how one of my lady friends is getting married to an evangelist Christian that is nearly a freakin cult leader. Anyways it seems like his followers are all messed up in their heads and it embarasses and sickens me when I hear about a guy asking for Jesus' forgiveness (they seem to idolize Jesus more than God) when they relate how sinful they're being because they rubbed one out the other day. Also the thing about these evangelists is that they're soooo stupid. They don't even think Catholics like me are Christians (because we haven't excepted Jesus in our heart) and so I'm always like "B*tch WTF you talking about CATHOLICS ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS YOU IGNORANT PROTESTANTS YOU AREN'T EVEN PROTESTANTS YOU'RE A GENERIC BRAND OF PROTESTANTISM labeled as basic Christians kinda like alprazolam to Xanax you're not even Methodist or Babtist etc (not like it matters); Ohh and BTW I think I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was Babtized...

But when you see this kinda sh*t go down it makes you think to yourself "Am I worshipping the right Idol?". Because this Idol seems to mess with a lot of people's heads... Then you just become Agnostic because you're afraid if you die that there is an afterlife and you don't want to step on anybodies toes so hopefully you can get in the right one...

I do not focus on what ifs, i focus on what is because what is, is what matters. Hell is eternal death period. It comes from the concept of the hebrew Sheol or Gehenna. Gehenna was a trashdump where everypone went to throw their trash and burn it if they could. There is no fire in "hell" because that is just a prison where the inmates are cut off from the light of God for eternity because they are dead, and after the Final Judgement is thrown into the lake of fire to be burned with the trash.
People try to put techinical terms on "hell" when it is just eternal death, call it that and leave it and be done with it.

Sheol [ˈʃiːəʊl -ɒl]
n Old Testament
1. (Christian Religious Writings / Bible) the abode of the dead
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Bible) (often not capital) hell
[from Hebrew shĕ'ōl]
Sheol [ˈʃiːəʊl -ɒl]

She·ol (shl, sh-l)
n.
The abode of the dead in the BibleShe·ol (shl, sh-l)

There is no fire in the "abode of the dead", pointless to burn a corpse when a corpse feels, thinks, remembers nothing because it is dead.

Ecclisiastes 9:2-6

2 All things come alike to all:

One event happens to the righteous and the wicked;
To the good,[a] the clean, and the unclean;
To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice.
As is the good, so is the sinner;
He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten,.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Why would this God choose to live in a place of pain and torment?

That would suggest that he enjoys pain and suffering...

I would definatly hang with the devil if God enjoyed the pain and suffering of others...

And i can see where some people get this idea about God when you read the bible...

Originally posted by Swing80s
I've thought the exact same thing but more about God and the Devil. I look at how one of my lady friends is getting married to an evangelist Christian that is nearly a freakin cult leader. Anyways it seems like his followers are all messed up in their heads and it embarasses and sickens me when I hear about a guy asking for Jesus' forgiveness (they seem to idolize Jesus more than God) when they relate how sinful they're being because they rubbed one out the other day. Also the thing about these evangelists is that they're soooo stupid. They don't even think Catholics like me are Christians (because we haven't excepted Jesus in our heart) and so I'm always like "B*tch WTF you talking about CATHOLICS ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS YOU IGNORANT PROTESTANTS YOU AREN'T EVEN PROTESTANTS YOU'RE A GENERIC BRAND OF PROTESTANTISM labeled as basic Christians kinda like alprazolam to Xanax you're not even Methodist or Babtist etc (not like it matters); Ohh and BTW I think I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was Babtized

You seem to have missed every part of the bible where Jesus is God, even in the Old Testament, it was always he who walked with Abraham and Adam and even Enoch. Catholics are not the original christians, the Eastern Orthodox Church that was originally the church of Antioch is the original Church, more over the "Church" is not a physical establishment it is a spiritual brotherhood (you seem to miss that lesson in the Book of Acts). What you worship is the Idol of Christ who sits on a gilded throne commanding most of the wealth on earth who is called "Pope" which means Father and Christ forbade any man call himself "Father" (when did Christ sanction worldly power and worldly weath?). Your master is a man who has all the titles of a King and Priest who sets himself up as Melchizidek (which is blasphemy because that is Jesus).

Your holiday of Christmas is really the pagan Saturnalia which was renamed Christmas, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but Nimrod was) he was born during the month of Tishri around Sukkot before the 15th of "October" when the shepherds were still living in their fields with their flocks and it was warm (Israel has extreme climates, too cold to sleep out in the wilds in winter) Luke 2:8-12. Easter is taken from the Babylonian goddess Ishtar (pronounced EASH-TER) the "Queen of Heaven" who came down to earth in a silver egg and emerged with breasts bare (fertility goddess) who would cause rabbits to lay eggs (easter bunnies) and the people would sacrifice their children and dip the eggs in their blood (dying the boiled eggs) and consume them (consuming blood is forbidden to christians, as is consuming food and drink dedicated to idols/false gods). Then the "Easter egg hunt" would begin and whoever found the silver egg could ride it to heaven and become a god.

In other words, catholicism is paganism 100% right down to eating that sun disc you call Eucharist (pagans consumed the flesh and blood of their enemies to gain their power). Look up the differences between Mithraism and Catholicism.

Christianity and Paganism, what the R.C.C. has wrought

The first 300 years worth of christians refused to have anything to do with anything that had the stink of paganism on it, until Constantine and his successor Theodosius I implemented legal and mandatory Sun-Day worship. Sun-day the day of worship of the pagan god Sol Invictus (who is really Nimrod).

"In 274, Aurelian … created a new cult of the “Invincible Sun.” Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome, celebrated every fourth year by magnificent games, Sol Invictus was definitely promoted to the highest rank in the divine hierarchy and became the official protector of the Sovereigns and of the Empire… He [Aurelian] placed in his new sanctuary the images of Bel and Helios, which he captured at Palmyra. In establishing this new State cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-worship…

Source

In essence, you worship pagan gods, and you believe in Saturnus, not Jesus. All those idols of Jesus on the cross are graven images because you do not even know what he really looks like. Your "Queen of Heaven" is really the Babylonian goddess Ishtar Jeremiah 7:18, Jeremiah 44:17-25 who was called the "Whore of Babylon" by babylonians.

Mattew 7: 15-23

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

reply to post by Swing80s


Btw Agnosticism is not where you do not chose a god to serve because yoou do not know the right one. Agnosticism is where you do not know if there is a God and you do not care, and i was agnostic before i was christian.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Do you follow God because he is your creator, or do you follow then the devil because you seek out reward in death as your only motivating factor?

I'd follow neither and follow neither right now, because I see them both as part of the same thing, and that we should all be equal. So whoever's going through the most suffering would be the one that I'd be more concerned about, because I don't think it's fair that anyone should be suffering, even the devil if that were the case.

Right now it's clearly Humanity that's the focus because we seem to be in the middle of all this madness, but if it turns out that there's a God and Devil, there has to be a point where it's accepted that we're all from the same source, and that loving one and not caring about the suffering of the other is fundamentally wrong.

You can't blame everything on one being, including any "Devil" out there becuase even if a being like that did cause things to get so bad, we're also responsible, every one of us, for allowing that situation to come to pass.

I just think it's too easy to point the finger at one being and create a scapegoat, if we were all doing things properly one being wouldn't be allowed to create this type of mess in the firstplace.

So if we all get through this and Humanity "wins" so to speak, some of us might be turning our attention to the losing side and hoping they're ok too. To leave anyone in suffering without hope is just wrong, regardless of who they are and what they've done.

If we happily celebrate the suffering of demons, devils, whatever, without having any idea of how they get through it either, I want nothing to do with any of us.

Equal rights for all. If not, what's the point?

This brings up a question I was thinking about the other day...should God be worshiped because of his Omnipotence or because of his Omnibenevolence? That is, if we were created by an All-Powerful but All-Evil Being, should we worship our Creator? Or what if we were created by Satan against God's will...should we worship Satan our Creator in that scenario or the God who never wanted us to exist?

Originally posted by Vedderman
Or what if we were created by Satan against God's will...should we worship Satan our Creator in that scenario or the God who never wanted us to exist?

You could just do what you think/feel/perceive is best for the all in that case, which removes the problem of choosing one over the other and instead allows you to just get on with trying to live your life in the best way possible.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Oh SaturnFX, I do so enjoy your posts. Just had to curry favor so your formidable intellect isn't focussed to harm me... which could, in time, turn into a religion... no?

Religious thought runs the gamut from infantile to astounding and in the end, in this form of consciousness anyway, what else is there?

Perhaps the god surrounded by torment has knowledge that such torment has a beneficial result, or grows intellect more efficiantly than pleasure... but then why not just tell the denizens of the "hell" this tidbit... unless that negates the education process... but if the postulated universe is based on illusion and lies hiding final truths, then is that good? Infinite regression, wash, rinse, repeat.

Originally posted by Vedderman
This brings up a question I was thinking about the other day...should God be worshiped because of his Omnipotence or because of his Omnibenevolence? That is, if we were created by an All-Powerful but All-Evil Being, should we worship our Creator? Or what if we were created by Satan against God's will...should we worship Satan our Creator in that scenario or the God who never wanted us to exist?

Very good question.

perhaps you should start a philosophical thread on that...would be interesting to see the results.

It would all depend on the afterlife.

If this heaven and hell scenario is eternal or temporary.

If it were eternal, then I would choose the one with the greatest COMPLEXITY. Pleasure and Pain are states of mind, one mans pleasure is another mans pain but complexity is not ambiguous.

It simply is.

The hell you describe seems pleasant and provides the satiation a mortal might desire, but for an eternal being the pleasures of the flesh would become redundant after a while. I know I would get sick of it, like eating too much cake. To spend an eternity with no complexity would be a hell I could not bare. This is the hell of the mundane we live in. Simplistic repetitious banal and pointless activities that we partake in is the death of the soul and perversion of our true nature.

So if given the 2 choices I would do 1 of 2 things, first I would evaluate which of the 2 scenarios offered me the most creative freedom and choose that.

Failing a suitable level of creative control I would simply create my own scenario that afforded me what I seek.

Infinite complexity and an eternity in which to explore it.

Thanks for the great thought experiment.

Heh...I have thought about something similar...what if God would have been made female and the earth male. You wouldn't have a single guy drill into " father " earth on an oil rig and most men wouldn't listen to a female god the way they do a male god.
Meaning less war, less pollution etc.