Revelation versus "2012"; The great divide

This great divide is between two different understandings of “the end of the age”,
For many hundreds of years, Christians have been expecting great world-changes based on the prophecies in Revelation.
More recently, people have begun expecting great world-changes in connection with the now notorious date 21/12/2012.

If there are two sets of expectations about “the end of the age”, then clearly there’s a strong temptation to merge the two, or at least find connections between them.
I’ve seen websites focussing on “2012” which profess to include the book Revelation among their sources of information, along with the Mayan calendar, the Hopi prophecies, and Terence McKenna.
Speculation finds points where the two sets of beliefs might converge (“Nibiru could be Wormwood”).

Nonetheless, there are good reasons for people who take Revelation seriously to keep themselves detached from the second set of expectations.

The first reason is that there’s no information in Revelation directing us towards 21/12/2012
(or any other date, for that matter, but let’s not start that discussion again).
Those websites I mentioned, appealing to Revelation as one of their sources, can’t point to anything specific that supports their interest in that date. Their argument is, roughly; “Disasters are expected in 2012 and predicted in Revelation, so they could be the same disasters”. The exact connection between them is left vague and undefined.

In any case, nobody who studies Revelation could expect the fulfilment of Revelation prophecy and/or the Return of Christ by the end of this year, because there simply isn’t enough time for everything that needs to happen.
“Nibiru could be Wormwood” is typical of the kind of interpretation that takes place when casual readers of Revelation pick out isolated details and try to match them against current events or popular ideas.
But Revelation is an event-filled narrative. The sequence is not clear, but there is a sequence, and interpretation is not best served by taking things out of context.

One prominent part of the story is that there is a world-dominating power which effectively declares war on the Biblical God and the church. The catastrophic events that follow are presented as God’s response.
All these events to be fulfilled by the end of the year?
The world-dominating, persecuting power isn’t even in place yet!
Realistically, the development of the events described would need a much longer time-span than the proposed date would supply.
(I will have people rushing forward to press on me their favourite candidate for “the Beast”. But nobody can point to any current power that is BOTH dominating the world AND putting Christians to death for being Christians. No, the situation that dominates nine-tenths of the book Revelation hasn’t arrived yet.)

But the most important reason for keeping these two expectations apart is that they belong to different, non-overlapping, belief systems.
The source of the Revelation expectation is the collection of experience and teaching that has given us the Bible.
The expectations revolving around “2012” have a variety of non-Biblical sources, such as the Mayan calendars, the Hopi prophecies, and the books of various “new age” prophets.

The events described in Revelation are ultimately attributed to the action of the Biblical God, carrying out his intentions for the world he created.
The events expected for “2012” are attributed to a variety of different causes, depending on the theory that is being followed. They might be caused by the natural forces of the earth, the spiritual development of the human soul, the return of an evil planet, or the progression of a Timewave. In the case of believers in the Mayan calendar, the events appear to be caused by the fact that a date has arrived.

Finally, Revelation has an expected outcome appropriate for a Biblical God- the “new Jerusalem” described in the final chapters.
The “2012” expectation has a variety of different outcomes which are incompatible with this Biblical outcome- and also, for that matter, incompatible with each other. There could be a pole-shift or the ominous arrival of Nibiru, at one end of the scale of happiness, or the possibility of “Ascension” or “Disclosure” at the other end. The conclusion of the “Timewave” could be at either end of the scale- I don’t think anyone is quite sure.

The followers of “2012” like to make a virtue out of the fact that the information comes from different sources- “If so many cultures are predicting this, it must be true”. The problem is that they are all saying different things. In a court case, it would not be enough to summon a crowd of witnesses. You need the testimony of witnesses who can agree with each other. If one witness says the victim was killed by Colonel Mustard in the conservatory with a dagger, a second that he was killed by Miss Scarlet in the kitchen with a candlestick, and a third reports that it was Professor Plum in the study with a revolver, nobody is going to be impressed by the fact that they have managed to agree on the date of the murder. So it is with the case presented by the “2012” movement. Not only do the witnesses give different reasons why the date is going to be significant, they cannot even agree among themselves on whether the outcome is expected to be good or bad.

So that is the great divide. On the one hand, the Christian expectation embodied in the book Revelation.
On the other hand, a mixture of contradictory beliefs, where the only common factor is that people have agreed to pin their hopes or fears on a specific date.
On the one hand, the Biblical God, who has instructed his people not to mix religions;
“You shall have no other gods but me”.
On the other hand, a sort of coalition of other gods.

Therefore the most appropriate Christian response to the speculations of the “2012” movement is to disregard them, refusing to be drawn into that belief system and waiting patiently for a completely different expectation.

You are not the first to try and make these connections,
and they won't be the last to bring doom and gloom to
earth. Human's are thrilled by the idea of mass destruction
but when it happens they regret ever having thought of it
so best not bring up any other doom and gloom thread.
Nothing will happen to the earth but it's up to us if we would
like to stay on this planet co-existing with it and it's other
inhabitants or to be the cause of our own demise.

No God is going to save anyone, people are not weak enough
to need help, they just think they are. Let strive for a brighter
future.

reply to post by foreshadower99

I suspect you responded to the title without reading the OP.
I'm not connecting them at all- I'm separating them, and denying the connection.
Hence "the great divide".

reply to post by DISRAELI


sorry I had quick read through and my eyes saw word's like
incomprehensible and not possible as comprehensible and possible.
Haha, but we can't truly say whither the bible is seperate or
just a copy of ancient Egyptian text's as it was said Jesus escaped to
Egypt and that important stuff was inserted into the bible to make it
seem true to other religions.

But either way we are here today and my not be tomorrow. Enjoy life
to it's fullest.

reply to post by foreshadower99

Actually your earlier comments on people "being thrilled by the idea of mass destruction" are a fairly good summary of the whole "2012" agitation.
Inasmuch as we both agree that the 2012 agitation is a bad thing, we are effectively on the same side for the purposes of this thread.

reply to post by foreshadower99

You may notice, incidentally, that I changed the title in the hope of making it less ambiguous and avoiding that confusion.

Just one thing I'm not sure about here, and a related question about Revelation. You state that there is no prospective world power in view at present, and no power seriously attacking Christians. To go to Revelation first, when it refers to the whole world, does that always mean the planet as we understand it now, or does it at least sometimes only mean the parts that were known about when the book was written? Reason I wonder this is that in many of the parts that were known then, there are are some very violent and large-scale attacks on Christians going on at the moment. I accept that the end of 2012 is a rather short time-scale, and like you, don't go in for date-setting but seem to see more in current events that corresponds to Revelation than you do. I suppose what is concerning me most is that I am beginning to suspect that there are people who are trying to use it - and perhaps other prophetic sources as well - as a template for trying to bring things about. Pretty nasty template if I'm right.

...."The world-dominating, persecuting power isn’t even in place yet! "....

I'm not so sure it isn't close though. I don't remember if you have approached this subject of the Noahide Laws?

I hope it's okay to link to this person's blog site. Short reads and very thought-provoking for all who read it,I hope.
seemytruth.wordpress.com...

So what is the punishment for breaking a Noahide Law?

“With but few exceptions, the punishment meted out to a Noachid (=non-Jew) for the transgression of any of the seven laws is decapitation” (Jewish Encyclopedia, KTAV Publishing House, Inc., page 648-9.). This is based on Talmud, Sanhedrin 57a.

The first Noahide law forbids IDOLATRY. This means the practice of any Gentile religion whatsoever including Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism etc.

This means the US Government has already ratified Laws forbidding all non-Judaic religions, and the penalty for breaking these laws is decapitation. Separation of Synagogue and State, anyone?[ex/]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Also, I forgot to mention that there is also a prospective world power, or New World Order as it's sometimes called, which is accelerating its consolidation of power at the moment in a number of ways.

Originally posted by Anthony2
You state that there is no prospective world power in view at present, and no power seriously attacking Christians... there are are some very violent and large-scale attacks on Christians going on at the moment.

I did not actually deny the existence of attacks on Christians, and we could class America as the existence of a world-power. What I denied was that there was any power doing both.

Revelation ch13 implies that the power at least dominates the world; "all who dwell on earth will worship it". Although the comment in ch17 about the "kings" who subordinated themselves suggests that much of the power could be indirect.

As for current events foreshadowing Revelation; my theory on Revelation, as it comes out in my threads, is that some events come before the rise of the Beast. This includes the drama of ch6, and the persecution of the martyrs who are seen when the fifth seal is opened, and who presumably die before the chapter starts. So current events could apply to that early stage.

Incidentally, there should soon be a "new message" icon at the bottom of your screen.

reply to post by On the Edge

Er- when your source document says that President Bush enacted the "Noahide laws", is there any reference to any specific acts of Congress which can be read and quoted as having this meaning?

reply to post by DISRAELI


To be honest,I don't know where exactly you will find it plainly spelled out like you are asking for. For those who like to control the flow of information,these things take some going after and sometimes reading between the lines. I don't think I could begin to retrace the trail that led me to think that this is a very real possibility,but it is not something I could necessarily convict another of believing at this point.

Connecting the dots wasn't so easy for this one.

Maybe it's right,maybe it's not?

reply to post by On the Edge

I've only had time for a quick glance at the first page of that blog; there were reference numbers given, but the only text quoted was a Congress resolution saying that Rabbi Scheerman was a worthy man (which falls short of what we need).

That's not quite all that was said. But,I'm not going to begin to delve into this can of worms at the moment. Sorry I brought it up. Besides,to imply anything too "conspiratorial" on the matter would likely get me labeled as "anti-semitic",which I am assuredly not.

Public Law 102-14 102d Congress Joint Resolution Mar. 20. 1991 [H.J Res 104] To designate March 26. 1991, as "Education Day. U. S. A." Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our, great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws; Whereas without thes ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos; Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society; Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future; Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world; Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991: .....

Did you know our nation was founded on the Noahide Laws? I didn't.

It's a strange piece to the puzzle if you ask me.

reply to post by On the Edge

So this Congress resolution estabishes Education day for the teaching of these ethical principles.
However, teaching them is not the same thing as enforcing them, or threatening to enforce them.
So my first impression is that the blog is making a huge logical leap.

Oh,what the heck? Here is the "conspiratorial" angle! I wouldn't be honoring the intentions of this site if I didn't follow through!

The Pharisees also succeeded in killing Jesus Christ on the basis that He blasphemed God, which is Noahide Law # 2. Remember Jesus' words, in Matthew 10:24-25, that the disciples of the Master will be treated in just the same way as the Master has been treated. I wonder if this Scripture has any bearing upon this current situation? Public Law 102-14 sets the foundation for American and United Nations Law to be established in such a way as to uphold these Seven Noahide Laws. These seven laws are a counterfeit of the Ten Commandments, and are promoted by the Neo-Pharisee occult group, the Lubavitchers. Don Bell further states that the Lubavitchers are a "Mystic" group, thus signifying that they teach the Cabbala as well as the Talmud. This revelation ties them directly into the secret societies of today which are powering the drive into the New World Order, i.e., the Illuminati, the Freemasons, and the Bilderberger Group, just to name a few. Thus, it would seem natural that these secret societies would look favorably upon a Mystic Jewish group, which has its active roots in the ancient Cabal, a group which is a soul-mate to today's secret societies.

www.cuttingedge.org...

Something to think about. I don't claim to know all the answers. Just watching things transpire like everybody else.

reply to post by foreshadower99


hi foreshadower99...yes, He helps everyday, too.....not just saves a soul ....but like in the hippy days.....I have "His peace".....
so, what I'm saying is if you talk to Him, He will talk back.....supernatural, huh!....just what we like....

The penalty for violating any of these Noahide Laws is spelled out on page 1192 of the Encyclopedia Judaica, "... violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation." Wow, in other words, if one person steps forward to accuse a Gentile of violating any one of these seven laws, that testimony alone would be enough to decapitate the accused. A person could be put to death for the flimsy accusation of being cruel to animals, and based solely on the lying testimony of one person!! Notice, there is no assumption of innocence until proven guilty, nor of the prosecution having to prove their case. No, on the accusation of just one person, the accused may be legally decapitated.

www.cuttingedge.org...


If this is true,...?????

reply to post by On the Edge

However, I still see a gap (on the evidence found so far) between this intention, and what Congress has committed itself to.

Ok,this cements it then! (Just kidding!)




No,but seriously,

The Jewish People have a big problem. This problem is an organization known as Chabad, Chabad-Lubavitch, or Lubavitch. This website describes this problem, and tries to prevent additional Jews from becoming "Victims of Chabad."... What is Chabad? Chabad is a religious cult and a criminal organization. Why is this a problem for the Jews? Chabad poses as an Orthodox Jewish group. They say they are more religious, more strict in their religion, than regular Orthodox Jews. In reality, Chabad's ideology is NOT Jewish. In Israel, Chabad is considered by the most important Rabbis as a religion different from Judaism. Chabad is a different religion. Chabadism is NOT Judaism.

antimatrix.org...

Revelation 3:9.perhaps?

Maybe?