Islam: Some more thoughts

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
reply to post by petrus4

 

People have a wrong idea, and don't want any other one, even when they hear it straight from "the horses mouth".

I actually have been seeking the correct idea. I truthfully have come to believe that there isn't really a single right idea, where Islam is concerned. There are some adherents of the faith who, as you say, are as harmless as anyone else; and then there are those who aren't.

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
reply to post by petrus4

 

People have a wrong idea, and don't want any other one, even when they hear it straight from "the horses mouth".

I actually have been seeking the correct idea. I truthfully have come to believe that there isn't really a single right idea, where Islam is concerned. There are some adherents of the faith who, as you say, are as harmless as anyone else; and then there are those who aren't.

Then you haven't drawn any conclusions because it's that way with a lot of faiths...

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine


This "non violent jihad " I heard of thru a video I watched on you tube . The Imam being interviewed spoke of this as a form of Jihad stating it was a Muslims duty when living in a non Muslim country to produce numerous children .

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
reply to post by petrus4

 

People have a wrong idea, and don't want any other one, even when they hear it straight from "the horses mouth".

I actually have been seeking the correct idea. I truthfully have come to believe that there isn't really a single right idea, where Islam is concerned. There are some adherents of the faith who, as you say, are as harmless as anyone else; and then there are those who aren't.

Then you haven't drawn any conclusions because it's that way with a lot of faiths...

I'm starting to think that firm conclusions are dangerous, to be honest. When you make one of those, it can compromise your ability to take in new or additional information.

Originally posted by Azadok
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

This "non violent jihad " I heard of thru a video I watched on you tube . The Imam being interviewed spoke of this as a form of Jihad stating it was a Muslims duty when living in a non Muslim country to produce numerous children .

The imam in question was a dumb ass..... probably from either Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, the 2 biggest sources for pimping and manipulation of islam.

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine

Originally posted by Azadok
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

This "non violent jihad " I heard of thru a video I watched on you tube . The Imam being interviewed spoke of this as a form of Jihad stating it was a Muslims duty when living in a non Muslim country to produce numerous children .

The imam in question was a dumb ass..... probably from either Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, the 2 biggest sources for pimping and manipulation of islam.

I remember seeing some statistics on Pakistan a bit back; Pew Research I think it was. According to them, Pakistan and Nigeria are probably the two most rabid Islamic nations on the planet, although I've heard plenty of bad things about the Saudis, as well. I'll never forget reading about someone from the Paki government on Wikipedia, who wrote a book advocating the death sentence for apostasy. I can't remember the guy's name now, but he was a real piece of work. Maybe I should try and look him up.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine


LOL thats all fine and dandy but get back to me when you've lived under Islamic rule and have Islam erode and eat away at your culture. And no, Islam is not a culture.

PS. to the Turkish girl...imagine what god has in store for turkey cause of the armenian genocide then.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

LOL thats all fine and dandy but get back to me when you've lived under Islamic rule and have Islam erode and eat away at your culture. And no, Islam is not a culture.

PS. to the Turkish girl...imagine what god has in store for turkey cause of the armenian genocide then.

I don't think you're really doing anything here other than trolling at this point, Info.

reply to post by petrus4

Hey again, Petrus!

Thanks for the article link. Going through it, and going through your original post, I'm put in a strange position. I kind of disagree totally with the axioms that you (and the article) base all your points on:
That there is a meaningful (and plausible) desire or even capability of muslim people/the muslim mindset/islam to "take over the world/europe/usa."
Individual groups probably do desire this, but their influence among the entirety of the muslim population, or even their capability to even attempt to accomplish this is almost non-existent.

That native european groups are on that significant a decline that it would in any meaningful way affect the demographics of Europe in a way that muslims would make the majority any time soon (not even in your 3 generations, I'd say).
Native European ethnic groups may have a falling birth rate, but after 1 or 2 generations, the birthrate of immigrants end up matching theirs anyhow. Besides which, "Muslim breeding" population scares (as exemplified by those youtube videos and so on), while they seem to have been taken as canon now are based off of pretty faulty data.


I could point out and negate specific details in both the original article (the incorrect statistics, the unverified/unverifiable claims, the conflating or replacing of "immigrants" with "muslims"), or in your response (the idea of islamic opposition to birth control, the idea that muslims as a group are at a peak of 'world conquest' or 'invasion' or 'jihad' frenzy, the idea that places that have been majority muslim for centuries would suddenly disappear or implode), but your original post isn't about those specific points, it is about opinions of a general trend that is based off an general idea that is based off a misunderstanding of those specific points.

reply to post by InfoKartel


Turks have paid for that, look up the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the loss of so much land.

But I've met a lot of Armenians who live outside of Turkey, speak fluent Turkish, and dream of the day they are given their land back, even though they have lands of their own in the current countries they live in: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc after all these years too. Doesn't anyone have any shame anymore? or does greed ever stop? Wait, yes, its called hatred. Turks will never admit they hurt Armenians because of who they were, because they didn't. They simply kicked them out of their homes after they caused a lot of trouble for the Empire.

Edit: I admit I sense trolling in your posts, but a good troll needs a good beating every now and then

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by petrus4

 

Hey again, Petrus!

Thanks for the article link. Going through it, and going through your original post, I'm put in a strange position.

I want to emphasise something here, in case it isn't obvious.

I do not advocate violence between Muslims and non-Muslims. I'm sort of hoping that that will be reasonably obvious by some of what I've written, but given how potentially negative my tone may seem to have been, it may not be.

At the same time, however, I can to a certain extent identify with the attitude of my father, and certain other people who seem to have the attitude that maintenance of the way of life of all groups involved, both Islamic and non-Islamic, is extremely important. The demographic and reproductive arguments may or may not be legitimate; but my overwhelming impression is that the governments of a number of European countries in particular are becoming gravely concerned. I think it is extremely important for us to try to discover what the basis of that concern is, and whether or not it has any substance.

I kind of disagree totally with the axioms that you (and the article) base all your points on:
That there is a meaningful (and plausible) desire or even capability of muslim people/the muslim mindset/islam to "take over the world/europe/usa."
Individual groups probably do desire this, but their influence among the entirety of the muslim population, or even their capability to even attempt to accomplish this is almost non-existent.

Whether or not the assimilation premise is true, I think the really important element is the fact that it seems to be widely considered to be true, among the non-Islamic population. Assuming hypothetically, for the moment, that you are correct and that it is not true, then I think it is still of vital importance to the Islamic population, that we attempt to discover why the idea is as prevalent as it is.

That native european groups are on that significant a decline that it would in any meaningful way affect the demographics of Europe in a way that muslims would make the majority any time soon (not even in your 3 generations, I'd say).
Native European ethnic groups may have a falling birth rate, but after 1 or 2 generations, the birthrate of immigrants end up matching theirs anyhow. Besides which, "Muslim breeding" population scares (as exemplified by those youtube videos and so on), while they seem to have been taken as canon now are based off of pretty faulty data.

I agree that said birth rates are declining due to other factors as well. I primarily attribute that to the current political depopulation agenda, more than anything else, to be honest. I remember reading a year or so ago, that the German government admitted that they literally did not expect their country to still exist within three generations or so. So it is possible that Europe is largely going to become extinct on its' own anyway.

It may be presumed that fears of European extinction are largely the product of the usual emotive white supremacist rhetoric; but my own investigation of the subject has led me to believe otherwise. Sub-replacement birth rates have apparently been tracked in several of these countries, for a number of years now.

It is also possible, that European populations are seeking to scapegoat Islam for their own extinction, but again, that is not necessarily what I'm seeing. The Danish government claimed a correlation between Islamic immigration and rape statistics, and it was not the first time that I have seen that claim. Male dominant, heterosexual rape in particular, (usually of non-Islamic women) appears to be a signature Islamic crime. That was also something that appeared in Norway.

Also, as far as the article being unverifiable in places, I will point out that it was sent to me by my father. He has numerous political opinions which I usually classify as both patriarchic and openly fascist, and which I do not agree with.

With that said, however, a number of the concerns that I am seeing expressed by him and others online, which could normally be dismissed as white supremacist racism, are apparently also being echoed by the authorities of a number of these countries themselves, as well.

So I think there is a certain amount of truth on both sides here. Yes, conservatives do exaggerate things; but I don't believe that the Islamic association with rape spikes (as one specific example) is necessarily a complete fabrication, either.

reply to post by nusnus

Turks will never admit they hurt Armenians because of who they were, because they didn't. They simply kicked them out of their homes after they caused a lot of trouble for the Empire.

...Wow...

reply to post by petrus4

Originally posted by petrus4
I do not advocate violence between Muslims and non-Muslims. I'm sort of hoping that that will be reasonably obvious by some of what I've written, but given how potentially negative my tone may seem to have been, it may not be.

I totally understand this, and do not worry, your post did not give off a hawkish tone.

One of your major points, which you bring up twice in your post, seems to be the allegations of rape among muslims in Europe. I hope you don't mind if I address this directly, then. Yes, it is a myth that muslim-on-white rape in europe is some sort of huge (or even significant problem).

If you allow me to presume the source of your statistic, the original article you linked about Denmark mentioned an article "Something Rotten in Denmark?" by Daniel Pipes (a name which should've sent alarm bells ringing automatically ) and Lars Hedegaard, which your article culled for the majority of its content. This article by Pipes and Hedegaard was also about Denmark, but at the bottom of it, it had a little note about a "recent released police report" showing that all 86 assault-rapes in Norway (not Denmark, but I've seen it also alleged on the web to have been Sweden...people sure get their scandanavian countries mixed up) were by muslims (which is false), and it links to this article for its "proof" (but this article unfortunately doesn't provide the actual police report either).

Unfortunately, the report that supposedly uncovered this truth is total nonsense. It isn't a police report, it is a piece by a israeli based blogger who supposedly has "strong ties to norway and understands the language".
A cursory investigation by other sources (this link actually HAS the Police Report with the data, but it is, unfortunately, in Norweigian) completely broke down these allegations:
First off, the numbers were false- the ACTUAL police report showed that the MAJORITY of rapes of that year were committed by Norweigians, however, there are a total of 5 rapes that occured that are categorised as "assault-rapes". These 5 rapes were committed by those of foreign origin (i.e. African, American, Asian, Middle-eastern or other european), although no statistics on religion are taken. Of these 5, 2 had "severe psychiatric diagnoses" and 2 were under 18.

So if your source for these supposed muslim rape-waves in Scandanavia is some other source, I'd like to see them, please! And if it is the original news/police/study/report, not the version by the islamophobe sphere which (more often than not) blatantly distorts the data, it'd be helpful!

reply to post by petrus4

The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

Since God is omniscient, according to the book you quoted, he obviously screwed with Abraham big time.

reply to post by nusnus

The US attacking Afghanistan wasn't just some crazy neo-con plan to bring about NWO. God was teaching them a lesson, alas they haven't learnt it very well.

So, God did this? Is this the lesson you speak of? And those stupid innocent Muslim babies haven't learned to absorb radiation yet. Shame on you or them?

Warning: very graphic picture. Not for the faint of heart!!!

www.uruknet.de...

reply to post by babloyi


islamineurope.blogspot.com.au...

Here is a study on Norway, babloyi. I was going to cite a YouTube video with a report from a state-run TV channel in Sweden, but YT removed it for copyright violations, unfortunately.

reply to post by petrus4

Hey Petrus!

I'm not sure you checked out the links I provided, but one of them actually HAD a police report that detailed the rapes in Oslo, with all sorts of breakdowns. That is where I got the information from. For your ease, here it is directly:
Rape in the Global City - Strategic staff Oslo Police District, May 2011

Now I realise that this report is in Norwegian, but I went through the trouble of plugging it in (specifically the sections relating to rape and immigrant correlations) bit by bit into Google Translate, and I'd strongly suggest you do the same, at least for the sections starting page 19 and page 52, or at the very least, read the graph and the paragraph on page 55. You'll notice that your article was at the most able to draw correlations only from data gathered from other sources, along with extrapolations and educated guesses (and the author says as much himself). It would be better to go to the original source (as your link very often refers to police reports, like the one I linked, which also show historical trends from the previous years as well).

As I had said before, the faulty statistics that lead to the statement "All rapes in Oslo in 2010 were by muslims" (not a position the author of your link takes), was done by ONLY counting the "assault rapes" (you can search for this term in the document- It is "overfallsvoldtek"), where there were ONLY 6 cases, all of which were perpetrated by foreign-born offenders. Now I am sure you can agree that 6 cases don't make a trend, nor can they used as a blanket condemnation about a "rape wave" or "rape epidemic".

Translated from Page 55 of the report linked above
The ethnic profile varies within the different types of rape, but for all except assault rape Norwegian offenders are the largest group. Assault rapes, however, deals with only 6 matters, where the same perpetrator was responsible for two incidents (5 unique individuals suspected / accused in 6 reviews). In four of the six reviews (3 unique men) the perpetrator was from the Middle East, in one the man was from Africa, and in another from Asia. The assertion that all assault rapes are committed by foreigners was supported thus by these numbers, though the basis and selection in particular for the statement is small. Two of the 5 different identified perpetrators of assault rape were very young - under 18 - and two had severe psychiatric diagnoses.

Where is this coming from, then? Is it citing the same source you've mentioned?

I will agree that the phrase "rape epidemic," is sensationalistic.

EDIT: The more I look at this, the more it seems strange. The woman interviewed here said that her rapist claimed, that his religion gave him the right to do this to women. It seems very odd to me that someone would come out and outright say that; and also that there has apparently only been one case of such.

It smells like a false flag, when I think about it.

reply to post by petrus4

Originally posted by petrus4
It smells like a false flag, when I think about it.

It certainly does, especially considering that the report they are talking about says the exact opposite.

It is also interesting how the video has been edited, in that the actual police (the woman in the video) is only quoted saying 3 lines:
"None of the perpetrators have yet been found."

"Many of the perpetrators who commit these rapes are on the edge of society, often unemployed, arriving from traumatised countries, in the past five years it has often been asylum seekers."

"The way women are viewed is at least one of the questions we have to ask in order to understand the motives of the perpetrators. It should not stand on its own, as a stigma, but an element we must have the courage to address."

I don't speak norwegian, but even from what little I can piece together, it doesn't seem all there.
The video would like us to think that these three statements are connected, when in fact, they actually disprove what the video claims. The officer says that it "has often been asylum seekers", not that that is all it is. And the idea that "asylum seekers" is a euphemism for muslims is patently false- for example, Oslo has a significant number Ethiopian asylum seekers/refugees, who are majority Christian.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by petrus4

 

Originally posted by petrus4
It smells like a false flag, when I think about it.

It certainly does, especially considering that the report they are talking about says the exact opposite.

I'd like to see someone talk to the Pakistani man, who committed the rape where it was said that Islam allowed him to do that. I would want to know what he might say, when asked what he was thinking when he did that.

Was he paid by someone to do it? I remember Alex Jones saying that there were some Arabic men in the pre-2001, failed WTC incident, who were actually given components for a bomb, money, and instructions, and told by the FBI to try and attack the World Trade Center.

So I know that these things are done. I think we need to get to the bottom of these sorts of incidents, one way or the other. I think that is what this forum is for.