Cult Mystery Of Ancient Rome and Greece (The Eleusinian Mysteries)

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
there is more then parallels to be drawn from that and those myths and archetypes, and in that they are more then just copies and reversions of each other. The whole thing and the myths, stories, heroes, villains, the archetypes, the genus the whole thing is the encoding language of the human mind, the hero with a thousand faces is a pretty apt name I suppose.

Yes, that is precisely the theme. It's incredibly interesting and profoundly promising in what it means and what it can teach us.

My struggle, though, has always been that it is a hypothesis. And though the evidence that can be viewed and read is overwhelming, there is no actual proof (of which I am aware) that this concept is, without doubt, factual.

Nor, I don't believe, could there ever be proof ... unless someday we learn prove the collective unconscious and can actually see and understand the portion(s) of the brain that "manage" it.

So, I go with it. I see it as a solid explanation because of the uncanny connections in all the evidence we have of civilizations and their stories and beliefs. There's some reason why so many people and cultures share beliefs, customs, standards, expectations ... it could be alien overlords that seeded us thousands and thousand of years ago - and that's crazy-interesting. But I feel like it's in the brain and think it would be awesome if literature, culture and the arts are what, someday, ultimately provide the missing link into fully understanding human development and behavior.

BTW, sorry for not registering that sarcasm. So embarrassing ... and obvious now, looking back.

reply to post by Hadrian


It is perhaps not exactly the way that you would want it to be proved, but the acknowledgement of a single female line of MtDNA does in some way reinforce a common origin of transference of data, even if that data is genetic. But then, how else would a collective unconscious, or shared 'ability' be transferred other than by encoding it within genetic material?

So if we look at Mitochondrial Eve, who is estimated to be the common ancestor of every living human being on the planet, that gives us a distance of 200,000 years between whatever she experienced, or rather whatever data, or ability to encode data her DNA possessed that led, ultimately, to the success of that line of homo sapiens, and it was this line that migrated, theoretically, out of Africa, about 80,000 years ago, along with, presumably, Y-Chromosomal Adam. Whatever encoding that the descendents of these people possessed genetically, that ensured the survival of homo sapiens over all other hominid groups, was most likely, given the evidence so far obtained through archaelogy and anthropology tied to the motor skills and physiology required to pass information on verbally and symbolically/pictorially.

That we share common themes, globally, in story telling, goes without saying in the above context. We all came from the same place. Variations are merely environmentally and experentially driven.

reply to post by Hadrian

My struggle, though, has always been that it is a hypothesis. And though the evidence that can be viewed and read is overwhelming, there is no actual proof (of which I am aware) that this concept is, without doubt, factual. Nor, I don't believe, could there ever be proof ...

unless someday we learn prove the collective unconscious and can actually see and understand the portion(s) of the brain that "manage" it.

There is such a thing, and it can be proved and even tested out science like. However I am kind of sleepy now, and cant quite dig or think of were it was, but it was somewhere in my mind, I think. Anyways ya I am pretty sure it can be done, and does exist. Obviously they have not tried very hard if they think that it cant be done.

Try and try again I suppose, but I think they best focus on what they know of a singular brain and focus point and get a better grasp of that before they go tinkering into how the whole thing can be linked.

So, I go with it. I see it as a solid explanation because of the uncanny connections in all the evidence we have of civilizations and their stories and beliefs. There's some reason why so many people and cultures share beliefs, customs, standards, expectations ... it could be alien overlords that seeded us thousands and thousand of years ago - and that's crazy-interesting. But I feel like it's in the brain and think it would be awesome if literature, culture and the arts are what, someday, ultimately provide the missing link into fully understanding human development and behavior.

All those do shape the way you think. Just as the physical shape of your hands enable you to shape the world around you. Its a push and pull type of thing, a give and take. And just like you will find in nature some shapes that are profoundly always there such as a spiral, so to you will find some shape to the stories and the myths that are circulating out there in the world and in peoples heads, that are always there. If not constant then transient, in fact there is not such thing as constant it might be better said that its all just different speeds and vibrations of transitory states.

And they not only shape the ways you think, but they shape the ways you can think.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by MapMistress

 

You're on the right track, the whole basis of the Eleusians is the imparting of the 'magic' of horticulture, most specifically, propagation. The Eleusian is a development of the fertility cult, or perhaps an evolution would be a better term, and is specific to the meditteranean region. Malta is useful because that society failed quite early on due to climatic and environmental factors, and therefore was not forced into losing it's natural diversity, the understanding of which was integral to the Eleusian. When the Eleusians became elitised (for want of a better term) this marked the move towards control of access to farming (large land ownership), and co-incides, to some extent with the discovery and spread of the plough. Landowners needed workers with skills specific to their crops, not those educated in maintaining the natural balance, hence they, the peasants were excluded from the mysteries. The cult of Demeter therefore from this period on, becomes nothing more than a formal event for the offering of tythes, a harvest festival. And necessarily, Zeus, the thunder god, preciptator of spring, becomes more and more distant from the people, and this too, of course, is related the use of the plough, as it destroys the mycellia that brings the psilocybine (his son/spawn Dionysus) down from the mountain.

I guess I view the Eleusian mysteries as evolving differently. The way I see it was that women invented agriculture which would be common sense. In hunter-gatherer societies, women's task was the gatherers. And one day, women got smart. They realized that it would be easier to GATHER the plants and plant them nearby rather than searching for them everyday, wandering around. Hence the dawn of agriculture.

Since it was women who invented agriculture, the first agriculture deities were female- such as Demeter or Ceres. In fact, the first male crop gods aren't found for thousands of years later. As time passed, Demeter-worship or goddess of agriculture worship changed in various regions. Think of it like the evolution of denominations of Christianity and how different denominations occurred in different regions of the world as time passed.

The Eleusian Mysteries is one of the evolutions of Demeter, goddess of agriculture. Even within the Eleusian Mysteries, there's subdivisions of beliefs pertaining to regions. They had community farming at first, rather than large land area ownership.

As for Maltese versions of Demeter-Persephone worship, (goddess of agriculture and her daughter)-- Malta was always fertile land. They really didn't have failures in agriculture unless there was a failure at the Younger Dryas because that's the only group who --might-- have abandoned the island. All other groups, including those of Thrace-Samothrace, Lemnos-Troas origin that migrated to Malta, they stayed on the island being successful with agriculture.

Maltese Islands to Sicily: Malta-Ragusa Platform

The Eleusian Mysteries is said to have begun in either the Lemnos region or the Samothrace to Thrace region. It later moved to Euboea or Evia island and other areas.

As for Zeus-worship, Zeus began as a mere male crop god on the island of Crete after the Cretan earthquake that destroyed Knossos c. 1450 B.C.E. (date of earthquake is debatable). Prior to that, Crete primarily had female deities, especially pertaining to agriculture. When early Zeus-worship began, he was a crop god holding lightning bolts for the weather. Then Zeus-worship moved from Crete to mainland Greece and after that, all the older deities who had been worshipped for thousands of years had their legends re-written. You can always tell which deities were worshipped before Zeus because there's two sets of stories. One set of stories will be their first origin. The second set of stories is a Zeus re-write, usually claiming that Zeus either raped someone to give birth to a god or goddess or seduced someone to give birth to a god or goddess.

Female crop-agriculture deities, like Demeter are far older by thousands of years than Zeus-rewrites. I would actually maintain that Dionysus is older than Zeus as well. That the story of Zeus being Diionysus' father is one of those Zeus rewrites. There's a second set of Dionysus stories that have nothing to do with Zeus that have origins before Zeus-worship on Crete.

Originally posted by MapMistress
I guess I view the Eleusian mysteries as evolving differently. The way I see it was that women invented agriculture which would be common sense. In hunter-gatherer societies, women's task was the gatherers. And one day, women got smart. They realized that it would be easier to GATHER the plants and plant them nearby rather than searching for them everyday, wandering around. Hence the dawn of agriculture.

There is no evidence to suggest that women were the sole gatherers, men must have taken part, just as women would have taken part in hunting. If women invented agriculture, as you put it, it was more due to the necessity of confinement, not because it was easier. I feel that it was more out of boredom due to such confinement, combined with a limitation on food sources caused by confinement. Gathering, on the move, following the seasons, is far easier than getting plants to grow in places that they do not normally grow, and would have taken much trial and error. As it still does. Necessity is, as a rule, the mother of all invention.

Originally posted by MapMistress
Since it was women who invented agriculture, the first agriculture deities were female- such as Demeter or Ceres. In fact, the first male crop gods aren't found for thousands of years later. As time passed, Demeter-worship or goddess of agriculture worship changed in various regions. Think of it like the evolution of denominations of Christianity and how different denominations occurred in different regions of the world as time passed.

Again you are making assumptions of ‘invention’ by women, it was most likely a co-operative ‘invention’. What women developed were most likely pastimes to while away the time they were confined due to pregnancy and child rearing, that was the only reason for them not to be involved in nomadism. This would first have involved developing ways in which to make their limited supplies more interesting and more palatable, processing available food stuffs. But it would have only been by observing nature that they could have understood the processes involved in ‘agriculture’. The mastery of agriculture, and the processes which go into selectively breeding plants, takes generations. So no mere invention, it was a skill of observation that was passed on from mother and father to daughter and son. That could not occur, if first we had not overcome the difficulty of child birth and had women who survived that process. The key factor to acquiring and retaining knowledge was grandparents and increased longevity in general. Specialisation of the sexes came well after that, prior to that, cooperation amongst the group was integral both in hunting and gathering.

Originally posted by MapMistress
The Eleusian Mysteries is one of the evolutions of Demeter, goddess of agriculture. Even within the Eleusian Mysteries, there's subdivisions of beliefs pertaining to regions. They had community farming at first, rather than large land area ownership.

Demetre was the goddess of Spring, she only became the goddess of agriculture much later on and even then, she only is the mature form of the tripartite goddess of all cultures, she is, to split hairs, only the aspect of the goddess pertaining to harvest.

Originally posted by MapMistress
As for Maltese versions of Demeter-Persephone worship, (goddess of agriculture and her daughter)-- Malta was always fertile land. They really didn't have failures in agriculture unless there was a failure at the Younger Dryas because that's the only group who --might-- have abandoned the island. All other groups, including those of Thrace-Samothrace, Lemnos-Troas origin that migrated to Malta, they stayed on the island being successful with agriculture.

Malta isn’t fertile, not in a farming sense. It’s soils are ideal for those plants that thrive there, that is why they thrive. The soil is, overall, lacking in key nutrients, but more importantly it lacks organic matter. While it is feasible for farmers now to add such matter to the soil, it was not for the initial settlers, and even now, farming is by necessity small scale, and resistant to cereal production. The ‘Neolithic Package’ was dependent on establishing cereal crops. Given the archaeological evidence, the majority of the settlers seem to have been pastoralists, lots of goat and ship, some bovine and pigs, but not enough to have provided the organic matter required to replenish the soils. So while the settlers did not suffer, they did not advance at the same rate as other groups.

Also, we see, from ceramic finds, that they was an absence of trade until the Punic period, this is most likely due to it’s position within the currents, and the carriage of the winds. Until more advanced means of navigation were developed, only contact with Sicily was likely. Once the med was opened up by navigation and Malta became widely accessible, it’s more backward culture was most likely swallowed up by exploitation of the human resources, because it lacked anything else. As it stands even today, Malta’s key significance is it’s strategic position.

Originally posted by MapMistress
As for Zeus-worship, Zeus began as a mere male crop god on the island of Crete after the Cretan earthquake that destroyed Knossos c. 1450 B.C.E. (date of earthquake is debatable).

Galadwar has it summed up, the hero of a thousand faces, or rather thousand names. Zeus is a variation of the Green Man, the bringer of Spring, and the thunder god. He has been around much longer than Knossos, but he was subjugated in favour of his ‘fruit’.

Originally posted by MapMistress
Prior to that, Crete primarily had female deities, especially pertaining to agriculture. When early Zeus-worship began, he was a crop god holding lightning bolts for the weather. Then Zeus-worship moved from Crete to mainland Greece and after that, all the older deities who had been worshipped for thousands of years had their legends re-written. You can always tell which deities were worshipped before Zeus because there's two sets of stories. One set of stories will be their first origin. The second set of stories is a Zeus re-write, usually claiming that Zeus either raped someone to give birth to a god or goddess or seduced someone to give birth to a god or goddess.

Two sets of stories do not represent anything other than political mergers. As populations expanded, the dominant groups stories usurped the subjugants. Stories are conveyers of knowledge, particular prior to written or symbolic language, and are therefore environmentally adaptable. Female deities and male deities co-existed according to the evidence found at the lowest strata on Knossos.

Originally posted by MapMistress
Female crop-agriculture deities, like Demeter are far older by thousands of years than Zeus-rewrites. I would actually maintain that Dionysus is older than Zeus as well. That the story of Zeus being Diionysus' father is one of those Zeus rewrites. There's a second set of Dionysus stories that have nothing to do with Zeus that have origins before Zeus-worship on Crete.

Dionysus, again, represents specialism. In his primary form he is Zeus’s phallus, the mushroom, that comes down from the mountain from spring onwards, and returns in winter. The Mountain itself, the rock is the mother, hence the womb cavern, and Zeus’s birth in the womb, later, Dionysus, is also the bringer of viticulture. He remains fungal, but moves to a more spiritual form as yeast...hence his twinship with Artemis, she makes the wheat, he makes the dough rise, and the wine ferment. Therefore, initially, mother is rock, father is soil, son is fruit, daughter is vegetation. Everything after that is variation.