The Vetting - Holder 1995: We Must 'Brainwash' People on Guns

Originally posted by freethinker123

I mean I've heard this view by extremists before. Is anybody really stupid enough to think that some crazed gun toting guy / kid is shooting people thinking 'that'll learn them gun control folks!'?

No, I'll tell you why shootings are going up - because there are more and more gun owners who are careless in securing their weapons and guns are too easily available to crazies. The gun lobby is too busy defending the right to bear arms to think about the people who are getting shot as a result. The fact is that most people getting shot in these cases are done so by legally obtained guns. If they are guns 'we' control ie not illegal ones, then we have a responsiblity to make sure that as few guns as possible get into the hands of those not responsible / old enough to use one.

In the end you get the country you deserve though. If you guys are happy with hundreds / thousands of people getting killed every year and don't think that any attempt should be made to reduce the casualties thats your problem.

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained weapon.

While I can see the heart of your argument, and agree that with power comes responsibility. Gun owners should reasonably secure their weapons. The statistics however show that the overwhelming majority do practise great safety, and responsibility.

It's called the politics of fear. I can have anyone dancing to the most ridiculous tune anytime I want if I just SCARE them bad enough. That's how we got into this war on terror isn't it?

Here's some food for thought. There are roughly 307,000,000 Americans. 47 to 52 Million households(not individuals) own guns. Most households own 2.2 guns. I saw an old 1999 estimate at somewhere around 297,000,000 guns in existence in these United States, and that;'s a conservative estimate, one that has doubtlessly increase significantly in the last 13 years. In 2009 There were 18,498 firearm accidents requiring medical treatment, 613 were fatal. Without the hype, and emotion, and crying baby mommas on TV that is statistical proof that gun owners are REALLY safe as a whole.

There were 5.3 million violent victimizations in the same year, 436,000 commited with a gun, and 10,886 people murdered with a firearm. So even if guns disappeared tomorrow we would still have about 4.9 million violent victimizations. Because we all know that armed robbers will go back to school, and become accountants after we take guns away right? The knife, and baseball bat guys are PC, and thus exempt from scrutiny. We have to cut our steak, and play baseball.

Approximately 162,000 of the 52 million gun owning households have actually defended themselve from loss with a firearm, about 0.5%. So (oversimplified I agree, but I only have a few thousand characters) you have a 18,500/52,000,000 chance of having an accident with a gun in the house, 1 in 2800, or .000357% chance. 5.3,000,000/307,000,000 of being violently victimized, or 1 in 58, or .00172% chance. and a 162,000/52,000,000 chance of having a gun, and having to defend yourself, and/or loved ones with it, 1 in 321, or .00312% chance. So by the numbers 1 in 2800 you'll get hurt by owning one, 1 in 58 you'll need it have one or not, and 1 in 321 you'll use it at the most appropriate time to save yourself, and family if you own one. All other factors like auto accidents, illness, acts of nature etc... exempted.

Gun owners DO think about who else has guns, and who else gets shot by them. We think about it alot. That's why well over 99% of us are so responsible, and safe.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
Anybody who is against guns and is from the U.S. has never been subjected to the harsh reality of criminals and police response times. By the time the cops get to your house, most criminals would have had time to kill you and play Parcheesi on your corpse.

Anyone who is against guns in the US has never lived under true totalitarian domination like so many other peoples throughout the world.

Dont worry, they will get their chance very soon to understand the reason for the right to defend yourself.

Knock Knock Knock.

Is this the video that Breitbart stated he would release two weeks prior to his death? Impressive regardless, though not surprising. We thrive on being brainwashed. It is the closest thing to an imagined utopia for most people I suppose.

Holder is not discussing 'brainwashing'. He is discussing education. If the NRA can use popular culture to "brainwash" kids into thinking that carrying guns is cool and macho, why can't the Government use the media to combat that image?

reply to post by rnaa


I don't like the media any more than I like the government. The thread was referring to the government though. They are one in the same regardless. /shrug

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by WordsAreAvenues
Why do you think "random" shootings have been increasing this year?

To get people angry at gun usage.

I mean I've heard this view by extremists before. Is anybody really stupid enough to think that some crazed gun toting guy / kid is shooting people thinking 'that'll learn them gun control folks!'?

No, I'll tell you why shootings are going up - because there are more and more gun owners who are careless in securing their weapons and guns are too easily available to crazies. The gun lobby is too busy defending the right to bear arms to think about the people who are getting shot as a result. The fact is that most people getting shot in these cases are done so by legally obtained guns. If they are guns 'we' control ie not illegal ones, then we have a responsiblity to make sure that as few guns as possible get into the hands of those not responsible / old enough to use one.

In the end you get the country you deserve though. If you guys are happy with hundreds / thousands of people getting killed every year and don't think that any attempt should be made to reduce the casualties thats your problem.

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained
weapon.

Golly Dude! It seems that if you are totally unhappy with the way it would seem a majority of folks, even those with political power are going, you can either get a group together and work for change or move to Canada. LOL!

Originally posted by freethinker123

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained weapon.

Since I can't even hope to control the irresponsible behaviors of others, I did the next best thing and taught "all of mine" to not be victims, regardless of how the other guy's weapon was obtained - I can't say that I really care if he got it legally or not when he's shooting at me with it..

While I was at it, I taught them how to shoot back, and, more importantly, how to make it count. There's more to it than just John Wayne-ing a trigger until your weapon runs dry.

Thanks for the controlling concern, though!

Originally posted by Dbriefed
Having a little experience with Special Ops Domesitc PsyOps guys, let me put it this way: Imagine you had a program that tested inputs on the American public and their reactions. Over time you'll learn what inputs cause what reactions, and you'd be able to create a program to get the results you want: Reduced liberties, minimized constitutional rights, increased government power, manipulate elections (laws put in place, politicians elected, etc.).

You don't need to manipulate individuals, just the masses.

That's it, exactly! You don't micromanage every sheep, you run the entire herd as a unit.

Originally posted by Binder

There were 5.3 million violent victimizations in the same year, 436,000 commited with a gun, and 10,886 people murdered with a firearm. So even if guns disappeared tomorrow we would still have about 4.9 million violent victimizations.

I think there would be a great deal more. The predators wouldn't have to worry about being shot, and so could be more careless in their choice of victim. They would then be operating in a "target rich environment".

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


Exactly. I live in Orlando,Fla. The average response time here for a priority call to 9-1-1 is 6 minutes,4 seconds. That is a lot of time.
On another note: Anti gun fanatics- Do not call 9-1-1 the next time you are a victim of a crime. The cops have guns.....

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained weapon.

Since I can't even hope to control the irresponsible behaviors of others, I did the next best thing and taught "all of mine" to not be victims, regardless of how the other guy's weapon was obtained - I can't say that I really care if he got it legally or not when he's shooting at me with it..

While I was at it, I taught them how to shoot back, and, more importantly, how to make it count. There's more to it than just John Wayne-ing a trigger until your weapon runs dry.

Thanks for the controlling concern, though!

Well actually you can to a degree, by supporting measures to make sure that said crazies and irresponsible gun owners get reduced access to weapons. We can't hope to stop these types of 'incidents' altogether, but people have a duty to reduce them.

Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

Originally posted by sigung86

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by WordsAreAvenues
Why do you think "random" shootings have been increasing this year?

To get people angry at gun usage.

I mean I've heard this view by extremists before. Is anybody really stupid enough to think that some crazed gun toting guy / kid is shooting people thinking 'that'll learn them gun control folks!'?

No, I'll tell you why shootings are going up - because there are more and more gun owners who are careless in securing their weapons and guns are too easily available to crazies. The gun lobby is too busy defending the right to bear arms to think about the people who are getting shot as a result. The fact is that most people getting shot in these cases are done so by legally obtained guns. If they are guns 'we' control ie not illegal ones, then we have a responsiblity to make sure that as few guns as possible get into the hands of those not responsible / old enough to use one.

In the end you get the country you deserve though. If you guys are happy with hundreds / thousands of people getting killed every year and don't think that any attempt should be made to reduce the casualties thats your problem.

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained
weapon.

Golly Dude! It seems that if you are totally unhappy with the way it would seem a majority of folks, even those with political power are going, you can either get a group together and work for change or move to Canada. LOL!

Good for you in having such a laugh about people dying. I guess you are happy with innocent people getting killed by crazies then? Carry on, like I said, you get the society you deserve.

I love how HOLLYWOOD depicts guns as not cool like none of the coolest guys in Hollywood shoot them and then the Guns themselves just go off when nobody is holding them! I have also seen the trend lately to make VIDEO games without guns is working too there are so few games on the Market that have Guns in them like all those Tom Clancy Games...

Yeah if they are trying to "Brainwash" kids into thinking guns are not cool who and what is doing this? LOL

reply to post by Binder


Some interesting statistics, but you didn't give any conclusion. Just to clarify I am not talking about armed robbers reforming, I am talking about confused / angry teenagers who gain access to weapons. I'm talking about gun toting maniacs that shoot places up who shouldn't be able to get hold of a gun in the first place.

Are you saying that nothing should be done to reduce these killings from occuring? For me that position is not good enough. As I said in my original post if the gun lobby spent just a tenth of the time advocating for more responsible gun ownership, rather than constantly talking about the constitutional right to bear arms, I do believe that less innocent people would die as a result at the hands of the various crazies.

As they say with rights come responsibilities, excercise your constitutional right, but argue for responsible gun ownership too.

I've never fully understood the American's obsession with guns.
So many Americans seem to be hard core fundamentalistic christians, when it suits them,
For if i recall correctly , the bible said has this to say:
"Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.""
^Replace sword (ancient time) by the word gun (now)

Every christian that owns a gun is thus by logic disrespecting the teachings of Jesus and the bible, go figure...

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by WordsAreAvenues
Why do you think "random" shootings have been increasing this year?

To get people angry at gun usage.

I mean I've heard this view by extremists before. Is anybody really stupid enough to think that some crazed gun toting guy / kid is shooting people thinking 'that'll learn them gun control folks!'?

No, I'll tell you why shootings are going up - because there are more and more gun owners who are careless in securing their weapons and guns are too easily available to crazies. The gun lobby is too busy defending the right to bear arms to think about the people who are getting shot as a result. The fact is that most people getting shot in these cases are done so by legally obtained guns. If they are guns 'we' control ie not illegal ones, then we have a responsiblity to make sure that as few guns as possible get into the hands of those not responsible / old enough to use one.

In the end you get the country you deserve though. If you guys are happy with hundreds / thousands of people getting killed every year and don't think that any attempt should be made to reduce the casualties thats your problem.

Just hope that one of yours isn't the victim of somebody else's legally obtained weapon.

Doctors kill more people each year than guns do. Cars kill FAR more people each year than guns do. I don't try to legislate your car or doctor away from you. Do not try and legislate my guns away from me.

Originally posted by XyZeR
I've never fully understood the American's obsession with guns.
So many Americans seem to be hard core fundamentalistic christians, when it suits them,
For if i recall correctly , the bible said has this to say:
"Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.""
^Replace sword (ancient time) by the word gun (now)

Every christian that owns a gun is thus by logic disrespecting the teachings of Jesus and the bible, go figure...

When the burglar comes to rob your house turn the other cheek. And then throw your Bible at him

Originally posted by freethinker123


Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

We are trying to get schools to allow guns here in Arizona. But crazy liberals from la la land keep putting up excuses.

reply to post by rnaa


The NRA has never tried to make guns appear cool and macho to youths. The NRA has always been professional. Children in my family have always learned to shoot before the age of 12 from NRA instructors. I think the people you wanted to blame are Television and Movie writers, producers, and actors and video game makers.

Originally posted by rnaa
Holder is not discussing 'brainwashing'.

Hey, Moron....go watch the video. Those are Holder's words, not the OP's words. Here's a quote from Holder, "...really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way." Get it? Or, are you simply too stupid or too much of a shill to actually listen?