Archaeologists uncover pre-Christian temple in Norway

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Hi. I'm "bashing" christianity.
Now you know where it's "comming" from. Me. In Chicago. I'm neither Marxist, nor a former supporter or resident of the USSR. I grew up here in Chicago. Born and raised in an evangelical christian home. I am an atheist and stand opposed to all organized religion. People can believe what they want, but it's their own private beliefs and should have no effect or bearing on society as a whole, and most importantly, not their government.
Your religious persecution complex may be helped if you sought psychiatric help.
Have a wonderful day.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


why is it talk of history is christain bashing?
while christians bash every thing non christian constantly?

Pagans were right to fear the church which by all accounts operates in a manner that couldn't be further from the christ's teachings as you can get
there is according to links led to in the OP some dispute about just whose teachings those actually were, which also explains why the pagans were afraid of the church born marauders...a borg like assimilation policy.

this thread is about Norse pagans running or hiding from an historically established christian invader...
remember the vikings?...many were christian..and marauders too
death rape and pillage was thier business
the conquestedors....hmmm ...pillage rape sack and murder.and and and BOOK BURNING!

It is true that stalinists killed 35 million christians in his day maybe more
But to be fair
The czar and his whole family were assasinated on the order of Jacob Shiff a zionist
His letter demanding the whole familly be assasinated too have surfaced

The pogroms in Russia were run by zionist jews..read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
en.wikipedia.org...
describes christian zionist in the US of which there are some 30 millions plus I think

As described in the Book of Revelation, there is an epic battle that will take place in Israel after it is reestablished — Armaggedon — in which it is prophesied that good will finally triumph over evil. However, in the process, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel die and the other third are converted to Christianity. Jesus then returns to Earth to rule for 1,000 years as king.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

this belief might explain the slaughter of Christians in the CCCP by a small clique of opposing religionists...
fear of christians

so talk of history is one thing
christian bashing is another thing..it would make a good topic for a thread of its own would it not?
but ..it is not the topic of this thread

this thread is about NORSE MEN FROM NORWAY!

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by WhoKnows100

 

As I posted above it shows your statements may be may be a bit simplistic and are certainly generalizations.

obviously if they were afraid of the church it must have been their fault?
see my above post re the strving Vikings not being allowed to learn from the innuit by the priest
they were all sacrificed on the alter of ignorance

it is often said that as a society progresses, tyrants worm their way in and use sacrifice to keep the masses under contol..this is not nesessarily indicitive of their societies as a whole...

certainly the church BURNT many they found with esoteric knowledge or nice stuff (inquisition)or who were reoected by the people and threatened their monoploly on knowledge
remeber the Kathars?
the first man to translate the biblke into english? (killed by the church)

They say dna has shown that half the people on death row in the US are innocent
how about the armys use of soldiers as guinea pigs at nuclear bomb test sites
or the children dying of vaccinations..
or staved by speculation caused price increases..
the church is one of the biggest share holders in the world you know...

you have the religious wars in europe which killed millions over which kind of christian they were
you have the Irish killing them selves off over which form of christianity they are
you have the pope declaring himself above the kings of europe,,,the sun goes around the earth
they would kill over that remember...galileo...the navigators amoungst the norse would have feared that for sure
you have crusades
etc

the church as are many power structures are slaughter machines!

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Hi Dan,
Although what you say has truth to it. It is all just an evolution of religious power struggles since day one. Try to research the fact that Christianity is more like Paganism than it's Hebrew roots from whence it all began. Old Testament.
I have read alot about the Norse, Vikings. Thier logs and reports also the indepth arceological reports are the best sources.
Truly interesting and amazing stuff.
One report mentions a group that reached what would now be the Canadian coast.
It was at the mouth of a river where they met what they called the Scralings (sp)
They got along fine at the camp the first day but the Europeans let the natives have some milk with thier chow.
The next morning the arrows were flying like a rain of pee.
The natives were retaliating for what they thought was intentional poisoning.
Although it wasn't. They were just lactose intolorant.
It put a hurting on the group bad enough to make them leave.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


now that was a damn fine post LJB!
considering my participation on some raw milk threads

i think we will find too climate change plays a big part in this drama as well
and there will be currency and banking wars too
cultural clashes and just plain old misunderstandings

so there are a lot of relevent concepts to discuss here...

edit to add
I do agree about the pagan roots of christianity
many of the holidays and their patron icons like hallows eve and santa clause the Ishtar or EAstar bunny
all asimilations which gets us back to the OP

I think the links below are related to this topic, especially pre-Christian northern Europe.

animamrecro.wordpress.com...

I wouldn't say Christians literally build on top of things. Perhaps more of a methophorical idea?

claus/www.atlanteanconspiracy.com...

Northern European shamansim is an interesting topic.

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by WhoKnows100

 

As I posted above it shows your statements may be may be a bit simplistic and are certainly generalizations.

obviously if they were afraid of the church it must have been their fault?
see my above post re the strving Vikings not being allowed to learn from the innuit by the priest
they were all sacrificed on the alter of ignorance

it is often said that as a society progresses, tyrants worm their way in and use sacrifice to keep the masses under contol..this is not nesessarily indicitive of their societies as a whole...

certainly the church BURNT many they found with esoteric knowledge or nice stuff (inquisition)or who were respected by the people and threatened their monoploly on knowledge and leadership
remeber the Cathars?
the first man to translate the bible into english? (killed by the church)

They say dna has shown that half the people on death row in the US are innocent
how about the armys use of soldiers as guinea pigs at nuclear bomb test sites
or the children dying of vaccinations..
or staved by speculation caused price increases..
the church is one of the biggest share holders in the world you know...

you have the religious wars in europe which killed millions over which kind of christian they were
you have the Irish killing them selves off over which form of christianity they are
you have the pope declaring himself above the kings of europe,,,the sun goes around the earth
they would kill over that remember...galileo...the navigators amoungst the norse would have feared that for sure
you have crusades
etc

the church as are many power structures are power mad for profit slaughter machines! ( at times)

edit on 18-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

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edit on 18-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

Hi Dan
Bee bit careful with the DNA. That's a govermental tool. Can you see it, taste it, feel it. No you have to have Faith in the ones that mystify you with it.
Heck, don't you rember the OJ trial.
cheers

Originally posted by Danbones
One aspect of this article is that it states they felt the need to protect their holy site from Christians.
This intrigues me...
Why do christians have to destroy and/or build on top of other people's holy sites?
Also do you have a favourite example of a holy site that Christians have built on top of, or is there such a site where you are?

Nice find. I'm kinda surprised that some are turning it into a 'paramountcy of Christianity' issue but that is a fairly limp side-story. Fact is most religions...Christianity included...have a pretty bad habit of demonising the competition and burning sites, books and adherents that cause them inconvenience. I'm not surprised that the users of this temple hid their sacred site from interlopers. We certainly wish a few more of the Mayan codices had survived the Christian scrum, for example.

But as to the question of building on the last guy's temple, what I am not seeing is a recognition that sacred landscapes and sites keep bringing folks back, no matter what the flavour of their godhead.

S&F, dude.

well you made some good points JC
I think having belief threatend is a tough subject to face in one way or another for all of us

though milk as a WMD cracks me up and was a very good on topic post...
the modern equivalent would be "would you like fries with that?"

once they are gone they often or maybe never come back
certainly an astute observation
re the norse settlement.or the huron it appears to be true
there is a great big cross here on Daganawidah's birth place where the first mass in upper Canada took place

I find it interesting in the local situation the holy site refers to Daganawidah ( rumored to be a virgin birth) who went off to organize the six nations into a no money democracy that influenced the US constitution which has as one of its principle tenets:
the separateion of church and state...and the creation (now usurped) of debt free currency

Could this be cultural/religious/political Darwinism in action?

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

now that was a damn fine post LJB!
considering my participation on some raw milk threads

i think we will find too climate change plays a big part in this drama as well
and there will be currency and banking wars too
cultural clashes and just plain old misunderstandings

so there are a lot of relevent concepts to discuss here...

edit to add
I do agree about the pagan roots of christianity
many of the holidays and their patron icons like hallows eve and santa clause the Ishtar or EAstar bunny
all asimilations which gets us back to the OP

edit on 18-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

Thanks Dan,
Chewing the fat as they used to call it. If it wasn't for (Murphy)at the mouth of the river thing could have been way different in Canada today.
From the digs in Greenland I have read about, it was a rather slow miserable end to the European presence there. Mostly climate but also the inability of the Norse to be able to assimulate with the natives. I think they tried but as you say about hunting practices and the like it just didn't happen.
I am sure the native folks were aware that this new group was a threat. Just via desease alone.
In the eary days the Norse were able to exist through farming and new recrutes from the old world. As the winters worsened the numbers fell the farmming became harder to impossible. The weakened last few were easily picked off. Not unlike the stories of the first colinies in Virginia.
I just had a thought. Vikings and the natives were both Pagans.
In the Americas the natives of the south were Pagans and the Spanish were Catholic. The natives of the north were Pagans and the Europeans were Protestants
Interesting as to how that has turned out so far.
the best

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Danbones
One aspect of this article is that it states they felt the need to protect their holy site from Christians.
This intrigues me...
Why do christians have to destroy and/or build on top of other people's holy sites?
Also do you have a favourite example of a holy site that Christians have built on top of, or is there such a site where you are?

Nice find. I'm kinda surprised that some are turning it into a 'paramountcy of Christianity' issue but that is a fairly limp side-story. Fact is most religions...Christianity included...have a pretty bad habit of demonising the competition and burning sites, books and adherents that cause them inconvenience. I'm not surprised that the users of this temple hid their sacred site from interlopers. We certainly wish a few more of the Mayan codices had survived the Christian scrum, for example.

But as to the question of building on the last guy's temple, what I am not seeing is a recognition that sacred landscapes and sites keep bringing folks back, no matter what the flavour of their godhead.

S&F, dude.

Hi Johnny
I agree. It is the power and will of the people as opposed to the the greed of the governments.
I mentioned Russia before. Christianity had to duck for cover (not unlike the op story) but it is back and strong. And the world knows how it was athiests that took the choice of belife away from them. By force also.
This brings to mind a wood carving I did of a Chief with a bear robe, bear head and all.
I left it on a shell mound. Days later and untill the termites ate it away, folks would leave prayers, notes to lost loved ones, symblolistic objects and even Mardi gras beads.

It is a common theme within all religions when taking over a new culture to absorb the previous sites, it makes sense logically (I don't mean it is right) to do so, if you have a local site that is revered by the local populous, then by putting your shrine there you make it easier for them to adopt the new religion, Christianity did it not just with sacred sites and temples but even with festivals, hence Christmas day is near the midwinter solstice, a major pagan festival, Easter is around the vernal equinox.

Doing this enables easy adaptation of the new festivals, makes it more comfortable for the new "converts" whether they are willing converts or not. It is all very pragmatic really, which just goes to prove just exactly how lacking these dates are in any real spiritual meaning and just more man made hocus pocus, in my opinion.

It is interesting that they covered it and hid it away, very interesting find OP and I do love pre Christian history so star and flag for posting give me something to look into this evening

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
One report mentions a group that reached what would now be the Canadian coast.
It was at the mouth of a river where they met what they called the Scralings (sp)
They got along fine at the camp the first day but the Europeans let the natives have some milk with thier chow.
The next morning the arrows were flying like a rain of pee.
The natives were retaliating for what they thought was intentional poisoning.
Although it wasn't. They were just lactose intolorant.
It put a hurting on the group bad enough to make them leave.

I think I might have heard that somewhere, but both the sagas and Dorset people's oral traditions recall the events of the day...though blame each other. No surprise there. I believe the sagas cite theft of goods as the trigger.

Prevailing thought, though, is that L'anse aux Meadows was a way-station on the new continent. It is well sited for dry-dock and repairing ships. It is not the land of milk and honey, though. Indications are that the Norse traveled from L'anse aux Meadows to more temperate climes to the south. Sorry, no citations at this time. I recommend a visit to the site, though. Stark beauty.

hey JC what do you make of this?

Talley sticks! I knew banking would show up on this thread!
a debt free sytem too hood athunkit!
and comment on Christian Vikings too

we may have IRISH on baffin Island before Vikings who says here left europe about the time of the christian Invaders of Norway

The new research I linked to above, however, goes in the other direction. At Kimmirut in Baffin Island a site has been dug which has produced woven yarn and tally-sticks, neither of which are paralleled from any other Dorset site and which therefore suggest contact with outsiders. The reporting archaeologist has some ideas about where some of this stuff is coming from, because:

Other artifacts from the area, such as a small wooden carving of a mask, missing its nose, also suggest face-to-face contacts with Europeans.

That’s because, although the mask is carved in a Dorset Inuit manner, it shows a long and possibly bearded face with straight and heavy eyebrows, wearing what may be Viking headgear.

Nonetheless, the problem lies in the dating, because the yarn apparently dates to some hundreds of years before the Viking settlements in Greenland were a going concern. (The article doesn’t say how they dated it, but even C14 doesn’t miss by whole centuries.) As the article says:

So, as Sutherland said, if you believe that spinning was not an indigenous technique that was used in Arctic North America, then you have to consider the possibility that as “remote as it may seem,” these finds may represent evidence of contact with Europeans prior to the Vikings’ arrival in Greenland.

They quite carefully refuse to pronounce on whether or not the yarn must be of European-style manufacture, but it’s interesting all the same. If Irish on Iceland, Irish on Greenland? And if on Greenland, Baffin? Brendan come home, all is forgiven…


Aerial view of the Brough of Deerness

Meanwhile, on another lump of rock where there certainly was Norse settlement, it’s turned out not to be quite what was expected. When the Vikings took over in Orkney, they are usually supposed to have been raw and pagan still, fresh from Norway or wherever, and generally taking no prisoners. A really good place to fortify yourself in such an endeavour is this Orcadian stack, Brough of Deerness, on which we have for some time known there was some settlement. That settlement includes a church, which again we knew had a precursor, but now the precursor has been dug, and it turned up a coin of King Edgar of England (959-75). That might pretty much make it contemporary with the Viking take-over, though of course Vikings didn’t always take their coins in for reminting when it was ordered and it’s possible that coin had been in circulation a good long time by the time it was deposited. All the same, it may suggest that one thing the new warlords did was set up a chapel, or at least, keep one going. As the excavating officer, Dr James Barrett of Cambridge, says: “It shows us that, even in the most Scandinavianised regions of Viking Age Britain, power was maintained by eventually accepting the local religion, in this case Christianity.” So remodel your Viking chieftain image accordingly…

(Hat tip for both of these to David Beard’s Archaeology in Europe, which also ran this article at the same time about the much-better-known Norse settlement at l’Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland and its visitor centre.)

tenthmedieval.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by LuckyLucian
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Hi. I'm "bashing" christianity.
Now you know where it's "comming" from. Me. In Chicago. I'm neither Marxist, nor a former supporter or resident of the USSR. I grew up here in Chicago. Born and raised in an evangelical christian home. I am an atheist and stand opposed to all organized religion. People can believe what they want, but it's their own private beliefs and should have no effect or bearing on society as a whole, and most importantly, not their government.
Your religious persecution complex may be helped if you sought psychiatric help.
Have a wonderful day.

Hi Lucky,
Think long and hard, with an open mind. As I said before religion in my opinion is a tool.
So wouldn't it be that the lack of it is a toolalso??
Well maybe the Practice of the lack of religion.
In other words Atheism is the religon of the Marxist Communists. They are alive and well in America trying to disunify and divide Americans. So if America's common bond is Christianity, what do you think they will attack first to accomplish what they did in the USSR???
Remember it was mostly nothern European Christians that fought and died to give you the opportunity to speak and live more freely here than most any where else in the world. Also tell me how the Native American Indians would have fared under the conquets of the USSR ????
Kick that can around a bit and get back to me.

thanks ljb

Originally posted by Danbones
we may have IRISH on baffin Island before Vikings who says here left europe about the time of the christian Invaders of Norway

There are definitely Norse sites identified in the Arctic, and I'm sure they weren't the only ones about. Check out this book... a pretty good read:

The Farfarers: Before the Norse (2000) is a book by Farley Mowat that sets out a theory about pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. Mowat's thesis is that even before the Vikings, North America was discovered and settled by Europeans originating from Orkney who reached Canada after a generation-spanning migration that used Iceland and Greenland as 'stepping stones'. Mowat's ideas are controversial and have been accused of being over-speculative. The book has been published in the UK as The Alban Quest.en.wikipedia.org...

. Much of it is speculative, indeed, but speculation fuels research, eh? The problem arises when the difference between the two is blurred.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
In other words Atheism is the religon of the Marxist Communists.

Just don't go telling me that atheists are commies.

It is known that the christians tore down ancient temples to build their stave churches all across Norway.
These stave churches are magnificent pieces of architecture built entirely of wood, and about 50 of them stand to this day. Here is one example:




Between 1992 and 1996 there were approximately 50 arsons on these churches bringing many of them to complete ruin. They were burned by members of the Black Metal community from Norway. Varg Vikernes, from the band Burzum is said to kick off the church burnings because he felt that he had good reason to because of what the christians did to his ancestors and their sacred sites.

I guess what goes around comes around.

Originally posted by Danbones

A fascinating discovery is shedding light upon pre-Christian Scandinavian religion and early Christian inroads into Norway. In the Norwegian press, this highly important find is being called "unparalleled," "first of its kind" and "unique," said to have been "deliberately and carefully hidden" - from invading and destructive Christians.

Located at the site of Ranheim, about 10 kilometers south of the Norwegian city of Trondheim, the astonishing discovery was unearthed while excavating foundations for new houses and includes a "gudehovet" or "god temple." Occupied from the 6th or 5th century BCE until the 10th century AD/CE, the site shows signs of usage for animal sacrifice, a common practice among different peoples in antiquity, including the biblical Israelites. (E.g., Num 7:17-88) Over 1,000 years ago, the site was dismantled and covered by a thick layer of peat, evidently to protect it from marauding Christian invaders. These native Norse religionists apparently then fled to other places, such as Iceland, where they could re-erect their altars and re-establish the old religion.

www.examiner.com...

Well, I thought this was an interesting find

One aspect of this article is that it states they felt the need to protect their holy site from Christians.
This intrigues me...
Why do christians have to destroy and/or build on top of other people's holy sites?
Also do you have a favourite example of a holy site that Christians have built on top of, or is there such a site where you are?

edit on 17-3-2012 by Danbones because: spelling grammer

So this person got all that from a little dirt on top of the site. No facts or evidence required?

You really can say anything and some will believe it. It is bad enough we have little information from history from that time but make stuff up???

Guess this story couldnt be parlayed into a book....shame.

Originally posted by Malcher
So this person got all that from a little dirt on top of the site. No facts or evidence required?
You really can say anything and some will believe it. It is bad enough we have little information from history from that time but make stuff up???

Well, then...so now you know why archaeology is a science. They obviously excavated features that led them to decide that the site had been sealed/hidden, and then set about establishing why. Historical research would provide details. When you are dealing with archaeologist/historians/anthropologists, they have a certain expertise that allows for something a little more concise than 'make stuff up'.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Malcher
So this person got all that from a little dirt on top of the site. No facts or evidence required?
You really can say anything and some will believe it. It is bad enough we have little information from history from that time but make stuff up???

Well, then...so now you know why archaeology is a science. They obviously excavated features that led them to decide that the site had been sealed/hidden, and then set about establishing why. Historical research would provide details. When you are dealing with archaeologist/historians/anthropologists, they have a certain expertise that allows for something a little more concise than 'make stuff up'.

Dude seriously we are lied to and manipulated to sell book and movies so much that after awhile it gets comical. You find an old site, make up a story and someone will be perfectly willing to believe it. It satiates their inner bias when you read it or watch it. For some its like taking a hit off a crack pipe.

If you know anything more then by all means do share. I say the same thing when people develop whole "ancient belief systems" from an old cave drawing. Horse # is horse # and no matter how much perfume you put on it it will always be what came from a horses ass.