Saudi Grand Mufti Calls for "Destruction of All Churches in Region"

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by stAtrill

 

If you don't think Muslims are killing people all over the world then I can’t debate you any longer because you completely ignore the facts.

So you are claiming to know those being killed in Nigeria or Egypt? Let me remind you what you said:

I know several people killed by Muslims but I can't name ONE killed by a Christian in the name of Christianity. Where in the hell do you live in America??

If you had ask me what I've heard about, then I have heard about every sort of killing from every religion under the sun (yes, including Christianity). However, in an attempt to actually respond to what you posted, I had to reply that I knew and still know nobody who knows anybody who has been killed via any religion. (Maybe I don't know enough people in Nigeria?)

When you made that comment, I assumed you had lost family in the military or something. Please don't change the intent of your questions after the fact.

And you aren't even properly debating. I took the time to type out a full and complete response to every point in your earlier post, and you decided to pull a minor footnote out of mine, remove the context, and try to argue it. Worse than that, the point you tried to argue we had already established before this began. To quote:

WHERE in the world TODAY is ANY denomination of Christianity killing large numbers of people in the name of Christianity?

Let me begin by saying: I do NOT find fault with your argument. They have been the most recent aggressor.

I am trying to take you seriously here, how many atheists anywhere do you really think would give someone like you the time of day? Despite your choice to participate in religion, I am not considering you under or beneath me in anyway, and you would look good to do the same. As part of proper debate, I will respond to all of your points, even if to admit being incorrect. To remind you, I have an earlier post full of valid points that you have not addressed.

So, to recap:

If you don't think Muslims are killing people all over the world then I can’t debate you any longer...

This is irrelevant, you already knew better. We established this step one.

...you completely ignore the facts.

I would lay off the character assassinations if I were you. Of the two of us, I think I have done a better job of accepting facts, seeing as you're the one who believes in a religion.

reply to post by stAtrill


Interesting arguments....

However I hardly think you accusing him of lacking in any argument because you dont believe in religion is valid..

Just because youre an atheist , doesnt mean you are immune to any of the actions by any religion, especially if an islamic extremist is after your head.....

Yours would roll just like anyone elses, because you dont subscribe to their particular flavor of Islam.......

So that argument is moot

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichiganSwampBuck

 

I was going to post something to the effect that this is just the beginning, but it wouldn't really make anyone think. Read the Quran and the history of Islam and you'll know without anyone telling you.

What’s amazing is the evidence keeps pouring in daily and the deniers still deny.

If it was the US taking out Mosques the entire site would be bombarded with posts. It’s the lack of attention to this Muslim plan that is eating up Europe and the entire Middle East. I guess they will eventually succeed.

Islam must be Arabic for CRYPTONITE because nobody will touch it.

The fact of the matter is the bible is very clear that in the last days both Christianity and Judaism would take a big hit from Islam , the bible does not use the term Islam but it names all the countries that are part of Satans army and they are Islamic .

Once their Mahadi returns he will do a false peace then unite both Sunni and Shia for the final assault on Jerusalem . For the longest time Christians were told the AC would come out of Rome but it is the other leg of the old Roman empire . Constantinople the eastern half , the revived caliphate is the beast that recited the deadly wound but was revived . Te book of Revelation tells us Satans throne is in Pergamos which is in Turkey .

Gods plan is coming together quite nicely , the end is not far off but most are in denial and ignore or don't understand the signs given to us in scripture.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by hmdphantom

 

So anyone with an opinion that thinks Islam is a violent religion is a zionist?

What if that person doesnt have a religion themselves?

What if they are Hindu and still think islam is violent?

Then i suppose they are zionist too?

It seems to me that this term "Zionist" has become a copout word , like RACIST....for people to throw out in a futile attempt to shut down dissenting arguments

try coming up with some rebuttals to some of the information presented , rather then just calling everyone a dirty zionist and then storming off

So you better know Zionism. They have been around for centuries. They are with great plans for worlds energy and energy vessels.

They are planning for the entire planet.

They are here moving in middle east.

wahabbism was a creation of freemasonry and british empire's divide and conquer. Seems the anglo-sabbatean frankists want a final war b/w zionists and the wahabbis which will destroy both sides.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by hmdphantom

 

So anyone with an opinion that thinks Islam is a violent religion is a zionist?

What if that person doesnt have a religion themselves?

What if they are Hindu and still think islam is violent?

Then i suppose they are zionist too?

It seems to me that this term "Zionist" has become a copout word , like RACIST....for people to throw out in a futile attempt to shut down dissenting arguments

try coming up with some rebuttals to some of the information presented , rather then just calling everyone a dirty zionist and then storming off

So you better know Zionism. They have been around for centuries. They are with great plans for worlds energy and energy vessels.

They are planning for the entire planet.

They are here moving in middle east.

edit on 19/3/12 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

You did NOT answer my question....I watch you in EVERY thread slander people by calling them zionist, just because they might have a different opinion then you....

Tell me.......what if that person is an Atheist and still believes that Islam is a violent religion......

What if they are Buhdist, or Hindu, or any other religion?

Are they STILL zionist in your eyes just because they dont subscribe to your idiology?

Is this just another word for you, like "racist" to trya nd shutdown the argument?

YOu have FAILED to answer my question sir

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


So , I tell you where all these conversations are coming from .

Occupiers (in Iraq , Afghanistan , Libya , Palestine ) are taking Muslims lands and are calling them violent.

This is just a reason to rape the nations and kill them.

So , what should Muslims do ?

They should stand down , let occupiers take over their lands. To approve they are not violent.

So , that is all the diplomacy is about.

You (as an individual) say Islam is violent , but the truth is that this comes from a bigger speaker and you are repeating it.

Islam is not religion of candy and heaven , in every aspect Muslim should challenge their soul.

But when looking from outside and not informed comprehensively , this is a religion of violent.

While all Ibrahamic religions have many violent things in common like hell and how people will suffer from their sins , or like all prophets used to stone people or Lut tribe was extinced for homosexuality. Or other tribes and groups.

So , there are many things in common (called violence or whatever) to provoke people from greed and sin.

Then , you see?

Always Islam is religion of violence. Because Muslims are majority in Middle East (heart land). And in middle east lies all sources of energy which greedy superpowers are always here with their long time plans to do their old colonialism.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by hmdphantom

 

So anyone with an opinion that thinks Islam is a violent religion is a zionist?

What if that person doesnt have a religion themselves?

What if they are Hindu and still think islam is violent?

Then i suppose they are zionist too?

It seems to me that this term "Zionist" has become a copout word , like RACIST....for people to throw out in a futile attempt to shut down dissenting arguments

try coming up with some rebuttals to some of the information presented , rather then just calling everyone a dirty zionist and then storming off

So you better know Zionism. They have been around for centuries. They are with great plans for worlds energy and energy vessels.

They are planning for the entire planet.

They are here moving in middle east.

edit on 19/3/12 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Martin Luther King responded: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
people try to separate the two by Zionism is simply the belief that Jews like any other people, are entitled to a homeland. in 1954 Palestinians instituted its own "law of return" allowing all former residents of Palestine to return, except for Jews of course.Bottom line trying to separate Jews and Zionists is stupid and this tactic is only used to hide anti-Semitism.If you hate jews thats fine but why hide it just simply say i dont like them.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

So , there are many things in common (called violence or whatever) to provoke people from greed and sin.

So, "Honor killings" in Islam is a way to provoke people from greater sin?

Wikipedia - Honor Killing

An honor killing, or honour killing[1] (also: honor murder[2][3]) is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community. Honor killings are directed mostly against women and girls, but have been extended to men. The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts. United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees state that "claims made by LGBT persons often reveal exposure to physical and sexual violence, extended periods of detention, medical abuse, threat of execution and honour killing."[4] Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect the number of victims is about four times greater.[5]

reply to post by dragonridr



There is a fundamental difference between Zionism and Jews. Jews follow a religion, attempting to practice it to the best of their ability. Zionists are a militant faction (we liken them to groups such as the taliban or the muslim brotherhood or al qaeda) who believe that they have a god given right and will kill any and all who get in their way, they forgot about the commandment thou shalt not kill.

They are two distinct groups, just as the taliban is distinct from muslims. To be against the Zionist agenda is not to be against Jewish people nor is it to hate Jews. It is against a militant form of religion who seeks to destroy any who might stand in their way. They are extremists who twist religion for their own ends.

Instead of asking what does zionism to an american, you should be asking what is zionism from the people who you accuse.

reply to post by Gramlengo


Lebanon’s most senior Shiite Muslim cleric issued a fatwa, or religious edict, in 2007 banning honor killings, calling the custom of murdering a female relative for sexual misconduct “a repulsive act. Fadlallah’s office said he issued the statement in alarm over reports on an increase such killings.

“I view an honor crime as a repulsive act condemned and prohibited by religion,” Fadlallah, the most revered religious authority for Lebanon’s 1.2 million Shiites, said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press.

“In so-called honor crimes, some men kill their daughters, sisters, wives or female relatives on the pretext that they committed acts that harm chastity and honor,” said Fadlallah "These crimes are committed without any religious evidence, and mostly on the basis of suspicions,” he added.

Honor killings have nothing to do with our religion.

Originally posted by Jameela
reply to post by Gramlengo

 

Honor killings have nothing to do with our religion.

edit on 21-3-2012 by Jameela because: (no reason given)

If so, why is it that the term "Honor killing" is directly linked to Islam, and Islam only? Why is it that an Islamic religious leader HAS TO issue a Fatwa condemning it? Why does it keep happening all over the Muslim world, including the Muslim community in Israel?
I live near several Muslim villages in the "Galilee" in the northern part of Israel and there is no month that goes by without an arrest related to so called "honor" killings/beatings of Muslim women.
Heck, I even worked with a Muslim person who bragged how he would stone his sister (which ran away from home following her refusal to marry in an arranged marriage) if he could find her for the "honor" of his family name.

reply to post by Gramlengo


Norma Khouri, a Christian Arab and author of Honor Lost: Love and Death in Modern-Day Jordan:

The tradition underlying honor killing defines a woman’s chastity as her family’s property. It “comes from our ancient tribal days, from the Hammurabi and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C.,” Khouri explains. (In Pakistan, it is said to be a Baloch and Pashtun tribal custom). “This practice predates Islam and Christianity. Christian women are being killed this way, too.”

Matthew Goldstein also records that the Codes of Hammurabi and Assura, written in 1780 BC and 1075 BC respectively, are some of the earliest set of laws prescribing that a woman's virginity belongs to the family. In the code of Assura it says:

"If a virgin of her own accord give herself to a man, the man shall take oath, against his wife they shall not draw nigh. Threefold the price of a virgin the ravisher shall pay. The father shall do with his daughter what he pleases."

Goldstein also notes that honor killings were permitted in ancient Rome. He writes that female adultery was a felony and that the state "actively prosecuted" male family members who did not "take action" against the women in their family. Shockingly, the Roman statesman Cato said:

"If you catch your wife in adultery, you can kill her with impunity..." this was without a verdict from the court.

Dio, The Consul, the first King of the Romans, established the law that a woman found guilty of adultery could be put to death by her husband or relatives in whatever way they thought fit.

In Roman and Greek civilizations crimes against women by their legal 'owners' – fathers and husbands -- were so commonplace, that they barely caused people to raise an eyebrow. Under the Roman law of Paterfamilias, a man had absolute power over his children -- he could even execute his married daughter for a real or perceived indiscretion and had full authority to physically chastise, even to beat to death, his wife and grown children or grand-children.

Under another Roman law, the Manus, married women were considered the property of their husbands and placed under their complete control – they could be divorced, tortured, sold into slavery, imprisoned for life or put to death at the husband's discretion. The Roman lex Julia de Adulteriis defined adultery as a crime perpetrated only by a married woman against her husband, and punishable like theft under property laws. A married man was not considered guilty of adultery even if he had a sexual relationship with a single woman, since his wife had no conjugal or ethical rights over him.

Lavinia, in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus, is killed by her father after having been raped and mutilated.

In Lewis Grassic Gibbon's novel Spartacus the Romans are described as killing their women who had been raped by the rebel slaves.


These examples all predate Islam. So no, I do not know why it is seen as something related to Islam, especially considering it is against the teaching of the Quran, perhaps it is western prejudices against Muslims to accuse this act as being related only to us? You cannot find one verse in the Quran to support honor killings, yet you can in the Bible, read

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

reply to post by Jameela


Good job on getting all of those sources and quotes to back up your claims, yet you have still failed to explain why is it that MODERN history has countless of examples MUSLIM honor killings, yet other religions don't.

All those sources just emphasize my point, Christianity has long progressed from the backwards thinking of Roman or Biblical times, all the while Islam continues to remain far behind.
Or do you deny any cases of honor killings happening in recent years?

Originally posted by Gramlengo
reply to post by Jameela

 

Good job on getting all of those sources and quotes to back up your claims, yet you have still failed to explain why is it that MODERN history has countless of examples MUSLIM honor killings, yet other religions don't.

All those sources just emphasize my point, Christianity has long progressed from the backwards thinking of Roman or Biblical times, all the while Islam continues to remain far behind.
Or do you deny any cases of honor killings happening in recent years?

Are you forgetting about Latin America and their version of 'honor killings"? this is happening in modern days and this is Christians dear

And what about all the domestic violence in western countries and the men who murder their wives/girlfriends if not about a sense of 'honor' (even though now its just called anger!)

You are not innocent of honor killings

as far as the Muslim world it is a pre-Islamic tribal mentality that causes it and nothing at all to do with Islam. Let us not blame Muslims or Islam for it.

The al Saud are the worst of humans in the world, not only are they satanic zionists impersonating islam, but they have worked from within to destroy and spread false Islam. The scum of the house of Saud has spread as far as Afghanistan through the zionist proxy of Al qaeda. They buy billions worth of weapons from the USA while millions of muslims and non muslims are starving.

While al saud suffer from wide spread homosexuality and drug use, they choose to concentrate on oppressing the Christians and other minorities like the Shi'a.

Al saud are controled by zionism and so they work hand in hand with Israel to destroy Islam, destroy syria, destroy iran, and bring the new religion of the NWO

Originally posted by RizeorDie
The al Saud are the worst of humans in the world, not only are they satanic zionists impersonating islam, but they have worked from within to destroy and spread false Islam. The scum of the house of Saud has spread as far as Afghanistan through the zionist proxy of Al qaeda. They buy billions worth of weapons from the USA while millions of muslims and non muslims are starving.

While al saud suffer from wide spread homosexuality and drug use, they choose to concentrate on oppressing the Christians and other minorities like the Shi'a.

Al saud are controled by zionism and so they work hand in hand with Israel to destroy Islam, destroy syria, destroy iran, and bring the new religion of the NWO

True, very true

I found this topic to be very interesting, but the source in the OP does not provide a credible source for their information. All three links go to Christian, anti-Islam blogs and info websites. None of the sources are credible news organizations that contain the entire dialogue or speech.

Before anyone can make a fair and logical conclusion, we must see the entire context of what was said.

Can anyone link to a credible source with all the information? Preferably, an untranslated site with entire quotes....not just strategically picked pieces.

ETA:

I have been trying to find the original sources with no luck. I hope the OP can help me out here.

Also if you look into the author of the article, Raymond Ibrahim, it seems as though he has some pretty shady ties to be considered an impartial news source.

He is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center which is an anti-Islam-anti-leftist group, and some of his buddies at the Center, Like Ben Shapiro, work for or are connected to shady outfits like Breitbart, WND and other Neoconservative outlets.

It has become apparent that without a full sourcing of this material, I would have to claim this is simply garbage and possibly made-up.

reply to post by seabag

So how will these claims hold water when similar intentions are being proclaimed in the country that is home to Mecca, the holiest city in the religion of Islam?

Leopards do not change their spots for stripes. They will do what they have always done and the media will always turn a blind eye to the deaths of christians, where as a jew could shoot a muslim in self defense and the entire planet enrages and hears about it.

What happened when Qurans were burned?
What happened when Bibles were burned?

A jewish martyr says "i will die for what i believe"
A christian martyr says "i will die for what i believe"
A muslim martyr says "you will die for what i believe"

If this war rhetoric comes out of Mecca, then you know it's going to happen.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

I have been trying to find the original sources with no luck. I hope the OP can help me out here.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I dont know what you consider credible, but this article above seems to explain what is going on.

I see people in the Muslim world, or at least the more radical talking heads, always claim that the west is trying to destroy Islam. Well, when was the last time you heard any Christian leader in the US make some claim that we should destroy all Islamic houses of worship? Fact is they are intolerant of any other religion...you are at danger of practicing your non-Islamic religion IN YOUR OWN HOME over there.

You may not believe in any religion or care for them...but anyone that finds ANY empathy with this point of view is pathetic. To think that it is ever acceptable to persecute another person based solely on their religous conviction, even if atheistic, to me is wholly against acceptable human rights.

I have my beliefs and I don't force those on anyone....but there is no excuse for allowing the constant persecution of non-Islamic religions while painting that religion as some big victim.