State of the Russian Military

Well, Sweat, here is your chance to once again talk to a soldier was spent his youth in Europe as a soldier in the Eighties. Allow me to clarify a couple things for you.

Had the Soviets rolled into Western Europe, they would have done so using special weapons from the beginning. Their training was not as lousy as described and they shot more than a few rounds. As a matter of fact, they used more live ammo in training exercises than we did, and they used live chemical agents in the field, whereas we certainly did not do that. They lost many soldiers in training incidents, but the soldiers knew they could maneuver on a battlefield that was contaminated with special weapons.

Their general plan was to encircle large areas of land, figuring that we would not use our own special weapons (primarily nuclear) because of this, but I think they would have been wrong. We had plenty of tactical weapons, for example, the 8� round, and ADA missiles that would not only strike incoming bombers but could also be used surface/surface or surface/subsurface.

The use of these tactical weapons would not have ended the world, as they aren�t the same as strategic sized weapons. Anyway, our goal was to slow their advance down long enough so that our reinforcements could arrive. That annual training was called Reforger, remember that term? It was an annual logistic nightmare, but was necessary for the survival of Europe.

But, as you say, it is fortunate that we never went to blows. It would have screwed up many primo German breweries, and we can't have that!

The biggest problem in the Russian army is funding, not organisation or supply as most of the factories which used to produce weapons are still running but are just supplying other nations at the moment to keep a float
Russian economy is on the rise and the government would be able to allocate more money towards the military which will be able to upgrade and buy supplies, weapons and would be able to pay all they debts to the soldiers and officers who are waiting to get paid.

Like I said before Russian military is rapidly getting better. I do believe that the US military is strong it is just that the citizens are a little bit too nationalist. I am not saying every citizens, I meant all citizens. It is said to be that 1/3 of the world hates you. You have to stop going into conflicts that aren't yours. Don't help stay back.

The Polish army does the same military training as the Russian military, and the Poles have their own martial arts system close to Russian systema. The Polish GROM does the exact same training as the Russian spetsnaz. In fact, the Russian Al'fa is trained by Polish advisors, from previous GROM of Poland (Cichociemni-'Dark and Silent') and the Polish military. GROM is one of the best or the best along side with spetsnaz. Special forces in Poland started in 1941 with the Cichociemni. Spetsnaz started a little later, around 1943. The Israeli's started in 1947. So that shows you to be the best you must have the most experience.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

TheRussianPoljak,
could you please tell me what exactly 40th mobilized troops is/are ?
what OG was your unit part of ?
and also, how could you, a citizen of Poland, who've served in both Polish and the Canadian armed forces, menage to serve in the VS RF (Russian armed forces) ?
Last time I've checked, not even the citizens of the fromer USSR Countries (SNG) were allowed to served in the VS RF.

The Polish GROM does the exact same training as the Russian spetsnaz. In fact, the Russian Al'fa is trained by Polish advisors, from previous GROM of Poland (Cichociemni-'Dark and Silent') and the Polish military.

I believed this has been discussed/debunked on another forum (www.militaryphotos.net) and was found to be a BS-talk, apart from that the guy who claimed to be training our "Al'fa" operators (can't remember his name from the top of my head) shook hands and took pictures with some of our OMSN "Vityaz'" operatives.

regards,
kaskad


[edit on 27-10-2004 by kaskad]

Originally posted by TheRussianPoljak



What do you think about Polish GROM, and how the Poles are doing in Iraq??

The GROM are heaps good. Read about their training and an Operation the took part in in Haiti back in '94. The founder of GROM even got some sort of award from the US Army. Don't remember what it was but the US army hadn't awarded any foreign commander this award before. Have to check up on it again. Unfortunately, don't seem to have heard much about how they're doing in Iraq. Seems like their in the same situation as Australia. They play a role in the conflict and have done their bit, but don't get very much coverage.

I applied as a Russian citizen plus, my father was born in Nezniy Novgorod, Russia. In Canadian army, because not many wars are participated in. OG I am not going to tell you my OG, I cannot trust you. I will only let and go as far as 40th mobilized troops.

This isn't bull Shat, Cichociemni is real you idiot. Started before Spetsnaz/ at the same time. So therefore you are running on bad info, and you are the Russian patriot whom is bullshatting. You know nothing aboot GROM.

[edit on 27-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

Dear sir,
read my post all over again, and you might understand what I was talking about. I never did say that "Cichociemni" or "GROM" is/are not real, what I did say, is that our SpN FSB (gruppa A, V) operators are not being trained by Polish forces.
Also, there is no need to be calling me an idiot, by doing that, you are just making yourself look like one.

Why exactly can't you tell me what OG were you part of ?
What exactly are those "40th mobilized troops" ? VV, MP, BV, MS... ?

You don't really need nor have to answer those questions, because as of now, I'm pretty sure that you sir are full of it.

have a good one

If you want to know what OG 40th mobilized troops is in, I will tell you. It is BV. Not VV because that is parachutists. MP, we were assaulters. MS, definately not, because we are all land. So well I guess I told you more about myself it was supposed to be confidential but you pushed it too far.

By the way did you hear about Yasser Afarat's illness. Wow! I am on his side, the palestinian side. That land was stolen from them. By the Israelians.

Also Polish GROM is as good if not better than the Russian spetsnaz anyway.

[edit on 27-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

I dont know if GROM is as good as Spetsnaz. Maybe the general Spetsnaz. The other Spetsnaz have better training and more funds.

Out,
Russian

TheRussianPoljak,
do you even know what BV and OG stands for ?
BV stands for Beregovye vojska (�� � ��������� ������), that is pretty much the same thing as Coast Guard, and last time I've checked there weren't any BV/BO in Chechnya, nor anywhere in Kavkaz for that matter.
Ovcorse I could be wrong, and they (BV/BO) could've been guarding Argun and Sunzha rivers since the first Chechen
Now, OG stands for Operativnaya Gruppa (�� - ����������� ������) meaning Operative Group. In the beginning of the 1st and 2nd Chechen wars all our forces were divided into operative groups, North, South, West, East, Center (�� "�����", "��", "�����", "������", "�����"), all those groups were operating in their designated zones/sectors.

Also, VV stands for Vnutrennie Vojska aka Internal forces (VV MVD... OMON, SOBR, OMSN..SN VV)
MP is Naval Infantry (�� � ������� ������), in case you didn't know.

Well my one big question would be: Who's going to attack Russia with such force that they need their Cold-War military?

Russia is allied with NATO now and I believe their biggest military concern now is Chechnya (sp?) and terrorists.

For this, Russia has a great military for their current threats. Their army still has enough working units left to keep the breakaway republic and the Spetsnaz are one of the greatest (many would argue the greatest) anti-terror force on the planet.

Yes, Russia is a much weaker country than it was durring the Cold War, but so are the threats that it must fight against. Russia has also seen more internal changes in ten years than most other industrialized countries will see in a century.

All things considdered, Russia hasn't done horribly, I still wouldn't want to fight them.

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

Originally posted by The Astral City
Well my one big question would be: Who's going to attack Russia with such force that they need their Cold-War military?

Russia is allied with NATO now and I believe their biggest military concern now is Chechnya (sp?) and terrorists.

For this, Russia has a great military for their current threats. Their army still has enough working units left to keep the breakaway republic and the Spetsnaz are one of the greatest (many would argue the greatest) anti-terror force on the planet.

Yes, Russia is a much weaker country than it was durring the Cold War, but so are the threats that it must fight against. Russia has also seen more internal changes in ten years than most other industrialized countries will see in a century.

All things considdered, Russia hasn't done horribly, I still wouldn't want to fight them.

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

very nicely said

Americans supply the Polish with funds, lots of funds. Polish GROM do exact training as the Russian spetsnaz. They have about the same amount of experience. Polish SpecOps even have their own martial art systems at the same time of Spetsnaz.

PS: Russia is a PREVIOUS member of N.A.T.O.. Not anymore!

OK now i got to watch my porn!!!!

[edit on 28-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

Excuse me Polski brat but your big speech for me is big Silence.
regards chapo

www.weeklystandard.com...
acn.waw.pl...
www.specwarnet.com...

Here's proof, don't ask any more and also i will type something on Cichociemni, like I did for Russian spetsnaz:

Cichociemni (Polish for Silent and dark) were a secret unit of the Polish Army in exile created to maintain contact with occupied Poland during World War II.

Initially the name was informal and used only by the soldiers who volunteered to be dropped over Poland. However, since September 1941 it became official and was used in all official documents ever since. It is used both for the secret training detachment of the Polish Headquarters created to provide the agents with necessary knowledge, money and equipment, as well as for all the agents that were transported to Poland and other German-occupied countries.

On December 30, 1939 capt. Jan G�rski, a Polish Army officer who managed to escape to France after the Polish Defense War of 1939, prepared a report for the Polish Chief of Staff in which he proposed the creation of a secret unit maintaining contact with the ZWZ by a group of well-trained envoys. The report was initially ignored, so G�rski repeated it several times. Finally commander of the Polish air forces, general Zaj�c, replied that although creation of such a unit would be a good move, the Polish Airforce had no means of transport and no training facilities for such an unit to be created.

However, G�rski together with his colleague Maciej Kalenkiewicz continued to study the possibilities of paratroopers and special forces. After the capitulation of France they managed to get to the United Kingdom. They studied the documents on German paratroopers and prepared a plan of recreation of Polish Airforce in exile as a military unit specialized in covert operations support. According to their plan the airforce was to be prepared solely for the purpose of aiding the future uprising in occupied Poland. Their plan was never accepted, but on September 20, 1940, the Polish C-i-C general W�adys�aw Sikorski ordered the creation of the 3rd Detachment of the Polish General Staff (Oddzia� III Sztabu Naczelnego Wodza). The purpose of the newly-established unit was theoretical preparation of covert operations in Poland, arms and supplies' delivery by air and - last but not least - training of the paratroopers.

Training
The 3rd Detachment started to accept volunteers soon afterwards. Those who were chosen left their units silently and at night - hence the name, Cichociemni. Among 2413 candidates, only 605 managed to finish the training and passed all the exams. 579 of them qualified for the airlift.

Among the volunteers were:

1 general
112 staff officers
894 officers
592 NCOs
771 privates
15 women
28 civilian envoys of the Polish government in exile
The training prepared by the Polish 6th Detachment of the General Staff (Oddzia� VI Sztabu Naczelnego Wodza) and the British Special Operations Executive consisted of five parts:

preparation and physical training (kurs zaprawowy)
psychological and technical research (kurs bada� psychotechnicznych)
parachute training (kurs spadochronowy)
conspiration, covert operations and partisan warfare (kurs walki konspiracyjnej)
final course (kurs odprawowy)
During the first phase of the training all the volunteers were taught to use all weapons (including British, Polish, German, Russian and Italian) and mines. Additional courses were organized on which the soldiers were trained in basic covert operations, topography, cryptography, and sharpshooting. They were also taught all the details of life in occupied Poland, from the laws imposed by the Germans to the fashion popular in Warsaw under occupation. The fourth course included all sorts of covert operations, jiu-jitsu, and shooting at invisible targets,

The final course included learning of a new, false identity. All the soldiers who passed the training were sworn in as members of the Armia Krajowa


The first air bridge was organized on February 16, 1941. The Allied air commands carried out 483 air bridges altogether, losing 68 planes to air crashes and enemy fire. Apart from the Cichociemni themselves, approximately 630 tonns of war materiel were delivered in special containers. In addition, the agents delivered the following amounts of money to the Armia Krajowa:

40 869 800 forged Polish zloty
26 299 375 dollars in banknotes and golden coins
1 755 pounds in golden coins
3 578 000 German marks
Until December 27, 1944 an overall total of 316 soldiers and 28 envoys were succesfuly paradropped over Poland. Additional 17 agents were dropped over Albania, France, Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. An unknown number of Poles were also dropped over France by the SOE to start an underground movement among the half-a-million strong Polish minority (among them the best known was Krystyna Skarbek).

Although the unit was organized in collaboration with SOE, it was largely independent. The Polish section of the SOE was the only one which chose its own men freely and operated its own radio communication with an occupied country. Also, the identities of the Polish agents were known to the Polish General Staff only.

Among those transported to Poland were soldiers of all grades. The oldest of them was 54 years old, the youngest was 20. As a rule, all volunteers were promoted one rank upwards at the moment of their jump.


The fight
In Poland the Cichociemni were transferred mostly to various special units of the ZWZ and AK. Most of them joined Wachlarz, Zwi�zek Odwetu and KeDyw. Many became important staff officers of the Polish Secret Army and took part in the Operation Tempest and the Uprisings in Wilno, Lw�w and Warsaw.

The cichociemni took over various duties in occupied country:

37 started working for the intelligence
50 were radio operators and envoys
24 were staff officers
22 were airmen and airdrop coordinators
11 were instructors of armoured forces and professors of anti-tank warfare in secret military schools
3 were trained in forging documents
169 were trained in covert operations, diversion and partisan warfare
28 were envoys of the Polish government


Among the most notable Cichociemni were:




Rank Name and nick-name Dropped Note
colonel Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki - Antoni March 14, 1943 commander of the 2nd Detachment of the Armia Krajowa General Staff (intelligence and counterintelligence), discovered the German V-1 and V-2 testing facility at Peenem�nde. Fought in the Warsaw Uprising.
general Leopold Okulicki - Nied�wiadek March 14, 1943 deputy Chief of Staff of the Armia Krajowa, commander of the Nie organization, arrested by the NKVD, probably tortured to death in Lubyanka prison in Moscow on December 24, 1946
captain Tadeusz Klimowski - Klon January 7, 1942 Chief of Staff of the 27th Polish Home Army Division
captain Adam Borys - P�ug October 2, 1942 organizer of the Agat group fighting against the Gestapo
ensign Adolf Pilch - G�ra, Dolina February 17, 1943 organizer of a 1000 people strong cavalry partisan unit in the Nowogr�dek area, broke through to the Kampinos forest near Warsaw and liberated it with his men; between June 3, 1943 and January 17, 1945 they fought in 235 battles.
lt. col. Maciej Kalenkiewicz - Kotwicz December 28, 1941 organizer of the Cichociemni and the main planner of the Operation Ostra Brama, KIA in the Battle of Surkonty with the NKVD forces on August 21, 1944.
lt. J�zef Czuma - Skryty February 18, 1943 organizer of a partisan unit of his name in the area of Warsaw, arrested by Gestapo on July 12, 1944, probably tortured to death in Pawiak prison.
colonel J�zef Spychalski - Grudzie�, Luty March 31, 1942 commander of the Krak�w AK Area, arrested by Gestapo on March 24, 1944.
colonel Roman Rudkowski January 26, 1943 commander of the 3rd Detachment of the Home Army General Staff (air forces and aerial deliveries).
major Boles�aw Kontrym September 2, 1942 organizer of the secret police force, took part in the Warsaw Uprising. After the war arrested by S�u�ba Bezpiecze�stwa and executed in January 1953.

Out of 344 men transported to Poland 112 were KIA:

84 in fights against the Germans or tortured to death by the Gestapo after being arrested
10 commited suicide in German prisons and concentration camps
10 murdered by the NKVD during and after the war
9 were shot down with their planes before reaching their targets
Out of 91 cichociemni who took part in the Warsaw Uprising 18 were killed in action.

On August 4, 1995, the Polish special forces unit GROM adopted the name and traditions of the Cichociemni.

GROM-

GROM, a Polish word meaning "Thunder", is a special operations group in the Polish military. August 4, 1995 is the creation date. Special forces in Poland started in; 1939.





[edit on 28-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

[edit on 29-10-2004 by tututkamen]

Originally posted by TheRussianPoljak

PS: Russia is a PREVIOUS member of N.A.T.O.. Not anymore!

All I want to point out is... err.... WHAT!?!
Russia is not a NATO member and never was!

HELLO!!!!,
Russia used t be member of NATO, the SFOR division (Stabilization Force).

Here is link:
www.nato.int...

[edit on 31-10-2004 by TheRussianPoljak]

N.A.T.O - Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization

(NATO)..."is an alliance of 26 countries from North America and Europe comitted to fulfilling the goals of the North Atlantic Treaty signed on 4 April 1949."

SFOR - Stabilization Force

"As was the case with IFOR, every NATO nation with armed forces has committed troops to SFOR. Iceland, the only NATO country without armed forces, provides medical personnel. However, SFOR is more than a NATO operation. The following is a summary of contributing/participating nations:
As of March 2003
NATO nations: Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, UK and USA.
Non-NATO: Albania, Austria, Argentina, Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Morocco, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden."

(Note : Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia became NATO members since then.)

"Q: What is Russia’s status – is it a partner country?

A: Yes. NATO and Russia made a reciprocal commitment to work together to build a stable, secure and undivided continent on the basis of partnership and common interest in 1997.

This commitment was strengthened in May 2002, with the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council, which brings together the 26 NATO Allies and Russia to identify and pursue opportunities for joint action at 27 as equal partners."

Sooo...Russia is NOT a NATO member and never was..