Attachment Disorder: Research Issues, Sources, Relationship Impacts, Implications: My View

Originally posted by andypb
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

The strange thing i find is,(and the kids told me this), that sometimes she breaks down crying, and saying things like,"oh you love your dad more than me" or " your dad has turned you against me".
It's like she can't see how she treats the kids.
I've told the kids that when that happens, then it's the perfect time to let her know the problems they see,
and talk about how their treated.

OK, let me see if I'm too tired or can be a little creative . . .

"Mom, We don't want to hear such words ever again. Dad simply is too much of a gentleman to do that. And, EVEN IF he did that, we wouldn't comply. Actually, it sounds like you are projecting your own habits onto him. And we don't appreciate that."

"We respect the respectable. When you act like a mature loving healthy Mom, that's great. When you act like a spoiled, petulant, selfish 2 year old, it's hard to tolerate being around you, much less to respect you."

"When you treat us like your 3rd rate pets--to be near and carressed WHEN IT SUITS your whims--and to be ignored or harrassed or rejected or whined to or whined about interminably when you are out of sorts--that's crazy. We don't appreciate it. We'd rather be anywhere else but around you when you act like that. Why would you expect anything different?"

" Mom, like the rest of us, you will reap what you sow. If you want quality relationships, you must act like it. Acting like a cactus and expecting a warm fuzzy rabbit in return is crazy and immature. Knock it off."

"We expect you to treat us with respect and caring. That's your duty as a mother. When you don't, we will pull away just to protect ourselves. Expecting anything else is crazy."


"We would like to caution you. If you play enough sick games with us . . . if you push us away too often or too crazily--then it will be virtually impossible to establish a truly loving and mature mutual relationship again. You don't have an infinite number of chances with us. We are not indestructable. Our relationship with you is not indestructable. If you need to learn how to have a healthy relationship--get counseling. If your counselor isn't doing a good job, find a better one."

"We understand from your tears that you are disappointed and hurting. Frankly, a big part of us just no longer cares about your crockadile tears. You have only yourself to blame for your pain. When you fail to invest sacrificial self-less loving relationship stuff into our lives--what do you expect? You seem to think that the world has to revolve around you for you to be even civil or decent to the rest of us. Guess what--it doesn't. The world is not going to revolve around you--ever. Get over it. Grow up."

"Treat us as you want to be treated. Not just when you feel extra rested and generous--ALL THE TIME, DAY IN AND DAY OUT. It's called maturity and healthy adulthood. If you don't know how to manage it--find out. We are not your parents We shouldn't be having to be trying to help you grow up. That's an upside down crazy kind of family system. We hate it."

"In the future, if you start blaming and ragging on Dad, we'll just walk out of the room. If you keep it up, we'll walk out of the house. Frankly, often, we'd rather sleep on Dad's floor than put up with your whining blaming self-centered poison."

"If you want us to treat you like a healthy wonderful affirming adult Mum, act like one."

############

I don't know that any of the above sentences would fit for your kids or their situation or their Mum.

Maybe they will trigger some alternative ones that might fit better.

Anyway--FWIW.

I am curious what your response might be to the above . . . and, actually, to what your kids might think of the above if you feel it fitting to share it with them--at my request so you need not feel responsible. LOL. But I can understand how that might be too convoluted and complicated to do for a number of reasons. So no sweat if it's not wise in your judgment.

Bless you and them.

reply to post by andypb


Andy,

I think you and many many other men and women could profit significantly from watching the

TED TALK

that begins this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that one of the results of ATTACHMENT DISORDER is the sidelining and somewhat escaping into the net etc. and the familiarity of men's relationships--to some surface degree--instead of doing the real work of bridging intimacy enduringly successfully across the gender gap.

I am curious what your response might be to the above . . . and, actually, to what your kids might think of the above if you feel it fitting to share it with them--at my request so you need not feel responsible. LOL. But I can understand how that might be too convoluted and complicated to do for a number of reasons. So no sweat if it's not wise in your judgment.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Those are some very good responses, and i will consider showing my kids.
When she begins to cry, and say these things, my kids do feel sorry for her, not guilt, but just sorry to see her in that state.
I sure it's very hard for them to see their mum crying, and i suppose quite helpless in a way, i will ask them again,when she has another cry,(which is not too often),how it makes them feel when mum crys.

And thank you for the link.

As always, peace to you and your's.

reply to post by andypb



Thanks for your kind reply.

Please, of course, as you clearly understand, no pressure to even let your kids read such.

And, you could also just come up with your own with mine as a springboard to your own.

Let me toss out a few more off the top of my head possible responses to the crying mum. I'm glad it's less often.

"Mum, we hate to see you crying. It rips at our hearts."

"We hate more, to see you set yourself up for disappointments needlessly time and again."

"I wonder, Mum, if you can think of any way to avoid ending up in a situation where you feel this way next time?

"Mum we are not happy seeing Dad less. It is our right to see him and we expect you to correct your attitude about that. It has nothing to do with one of you having more rights or other nonsense. He's simply our Dad and we love him and have a right to see him. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. We need and expect you to have a mature balanced attitude about it."

============

There's the business, too . . . imagine a circle with a small gap in it. Naturally we want to close the gap--particularly those of us who are the least bit obsessive compulsive.

If the kids said some things which did not close the circle; did not complete the thought . . . and then left. or changed the subject, it would niggle at Mum and cause her to think about whatever it was far longer than otherwise.

Anyway--enough of my blather. Have a blessed weekend.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Interesting... But the solution this illness, is worse then the illness, and seems more like a sneaky justification for the tyrannical authoritarianism that has swept in the educational system, and other systems that are supposed to serve the best interest of children.

reply to post by BO XIAN


I've spoken and showed my kids the ideas on what to say in that situation, and they agreed it's a good idea, but they said they would use some of their own ideas of what to say.
And they asked me to pass on their thanks to you for the ideas and input, they all found the thread an excellent read.

Peace to you and yours.

reply to post by korathin



I thnk you are saying that the efforts to correct the horrors of ATTACHMENT DISORDER are worse than the dis-ease.

If so, I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. Perhaps you could outline it for me.

reply to post by andypb



WOW.

[color=6699FF]AM DEEPLY BLESSED AND HUMBLED by their kind comments.

I never know what's useful--particularly at such distances and on such little information.

I've developed a brazen habit of offering such ideas because it kind of cuts to the chase. I've learned from many thousands of classroom teaching hours that MOST people do not know or are not confident about what to say in a variety of situations--or they'd have already said such and things would have moved along from what they described.

So, I automatically offer such possible wordings and trust that folks will either modify them, try them, or come up with their own entirely . . . or do nothing and leave things the same etc.

And that's perfectly reasonable, to me.

I love it when folks come up with their own ideas and wording as a springboard off of whatever blather I've offered.

And, when it comes to men in the classroom or otherwise . . . they have usually been the MOST flummoxed about what to say--particularly to women and very particularly about emotionally laden issues and contexts.

I can't see all your kids eyes super clearly but I'd say from what I can see that--all things considered, your kids appear to be in the top 20% of healthiness and resilience. That's WONDERFUL. CONGRATS! You've done a lot very right for that to be the case.

Much appreciate seeing their pic.

Sorry this was delayed--a lot on my plate and several other threads going.

God's best to each of you.

Blessings,

Hmm. This kind of helped shed a little light on myself.

Long story short, I'll be 21 in a few months. My mother had me at 16.5 (almost to the exact day). Dad disappeared when I was

reply to post by TooManyTheories


WOW.

I JUST SAW YOUR POST ON THE ATTACHMENT THREAD THAT I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT FROM BEFORE YOU WROTE YOUR MSG.

SO SORRY.

I was just going through it because I'm posting about it on another website or I wouldn't have seen it today.

My heart goes out to you.

I'm deeply grieved to hear of your grief and heartache.

I haven't had near the neglect and abuse but have nevertheless also had a serious degree of attachment disorder due to a crazy mother and cold distant birth dad whom my mother divorced when I was 2 and a cold distant step-dad. Both dads could easily be harsh though my blood dad was worse.

I'd be happy to dialogue with you.

PLEASE TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

I don't know if you can afford books, or not.

If you can't, I'm willing to try and cobble together enough quarters to send this one to you . . . or maybe I could type up the 10 steps to overcoming such traumas as an adult.

ATTACHMENTS: WHY YOU LOVE, FEEL AND ACT THE WAY YOU DO:

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339042498&sr=1-2

PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW YOU'RE DOING NOW.

I CARE AND AM GRIEVED THAT I JUST NOW READ YOUR MSG.

I'll post this on the thread, too without my email.

So deep, Bo

Wow.

I did some researching on this topic a while back too, and you are absolutely correct.

This (and also known as Abandonment Issues) creates what we call Socio and Psycho Paths.

Scary actually.

S & F

reply to post by BO XIAN

Ah now a days everything is a disorder of some kind. I would not worry they will soon come with a cure for it in pill form no doubt and to boot.

I think your attaching a kind of vague label and complicating something which is in some cases very simple, then attaching complex things into that formula. Besides humans have not yet moved on from there hut living tribal days, our world gets more complex by the day were as the mediums of communication such as TV or Books or Internet have sort of installed a feeling of belonging which is not really there, this whole world is based on a lot of things which do not really exist but are extended and constantly bombarded that they do. There all just overburdened with not only worldly things but strange concepts which never quite seem to work or go anywhere.

Yet all of that in its foundations is laid upon very simple and even primal things which have not changed all that much with the passage of time or technology. And there in something is superimposing and filling that hole which is left, one of the symptoms you people seem to call attachment disorder, when in fact its more like a lack of attachment, which eventually is filled by detrimental habits, which are placed there by societies and groups all of which have intoned goals in mind.

Or maybe one could say that humans in general just suck at expressing simple things and feelings so they get caught up in a bunch of unnecessary things which cause a bunch of unnecessary problems, and round and round it goes. So ya bro I think you may have to be more specific about what exactly you mean by attachment disorder? But the majority seems to be the fact that if you cut out what worked for what you believe will work or worse what society says will work, you may have problems.

Attaching a one size fits all label to something especially were it involved the human psyche has shown itself time and time again to not really work. And maybe just maybe people in general are assholes, and whats worse they would not even know it, some may even beg to differ, while others create whole social networks to never quite look at what really bothers them. When everybody in there social network is telling them there right. Well who then will be there to tell them that there not quite as they thing they are and that they may even be completely wrong? The world would be a better place if everyone just realize that there assholes, and in that category you have assholes who know there assholes, then you have those who do not know there assholes, between the two the latter bunch are much worse. That and people just suck at expressing simple things and emotions, its quite pathetic really. But you know....Whatever to each there own.

Here a vid I came across on YouTube today about this subject.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


Hmmmmm . . . . my first read of your post indicates that you end up affirming the seriousness of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.

Labels are merely shorthand to avoid having to refer to a paragraph every time.

IF you think that Daddy failing to convincingly love their children sufficiently in quality and in quantity for the child to feel WORTHWHILE

is of no significant consequence

THEN

you are seriously wrong.

IF you think that there are no FOUNDATIONAL issues that have far reaching impacts in terms of secondary problems . . .

THEN

you are seriously wrong.

ATTACHMENT/ABANDONMENT are two sides of the same coin.

And WHEN a child feels worthless, it impacts all they do and all they are and try to become the rest of their lives.

MRI studies
[color=6699FF]document that serious ATTACHMENT DISORDER literally causes literal physiological BRAIN DAMAGE--in the areas of the brain having to do with emotional expression and with managing RELATIONSHIPS. Think about THAT for more than a microsecond.

Those areas cover an enormous part of what it means to be human in contact with other humans. It doesn't get much more basic and far reaching than THAT.

However, IF you think you can come up with a better explanation for the data . . . have at it.

.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

. . . . And there in something is superimposing and filling that hole which is left, one of the symptoms you people seem to call attachment disorder, when in fact its more like a lack of attachment, which eventually is filled by detrimental habits, which are placed there by societies and groups all of which have intoned goals in mind.

YUP, a huge hole is left that Daddy's Love was designed to fill. It's a crucial hole having a ton to do with self-worth, identity, motivation, hope, persistence, resilience, etc.

Or maybe one could say that humans in general just suck at expressing simple things and feelings so they get caught up in a bunch of unnecessary things which cause a bunch of unnecessary problems, and round and round it goes.

Please note my post above about how serious ATTACHMENT DISORDER results in physiological brain damage in basically 2 areas of the brain--one of them is that area managing EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION. The increasingly rare folks without serious attachment disorder do not have that kind of brain damage in that area.

Please keep in mind that EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION involves anger, affection, love, hate, hostility, kindness etc. These entail some of the MOST impactful aspects of being human and communicating human to human.

So ya bro I think you may have to be more specific about what exactly you mean by attachment disorder? But the majority seems to be the fact that if you cut out what worked for what you believe will work or worse what society says will work, you may have problems.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say with that last sentence above.

I'll restate:

SERIOUS ATTACHMENT DISORDER INVOLVES SERIOUS AMOUNTS, DEGREES OF ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING (Mothers can certainly cause the same thing in the same ways but in my experiences, the percentages tend to be fathers as the worst and most frequent causes by a wide margin):

1. Physical abuse &/or
2. Sexual abuse &/or
3. Verbal abuse &/or
4. Emotional abuse &/or
5. A cold father &/or
6. A harsh father &/or
7. An emotionally distant and/or absent father &/or
8. A physically absent father &/or
9. An alcoholic, drug abusing, work-aholic father &/or
10. An obsessively perfectionistic father.

etc.

Attaching a one size fits all label to something especially were it involved the human psyche has shown itself time and time again to not really work.

And maybe just maybe people in general are assholes, and whats worse they would not even know it, some may even beg to differ, while others create

Actually there was a study around 40 years or so ago which highlighted an exception to your rule.

[color=6699FF]it was a study which examined all the previous studies that had anything to do with what child rearing factors accounted most for success as adults.

SUCCESS AS ADULTS was defined as:

1. Never being on welfare
2. Stable job record
3. Stable marriage
4. No trouble with the law.

They examined socio-economic factors; discipline factors; neighborhoods; religion; no religion; size of families; many dozens of variables were examined.

ONE VARIABLE accounted for 80% of the variance. ONE THING resulted in 80% of the child's success as an adult.

What would YOU guess that one thing would be?

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No, it was not even whether the child WAS LOVED, or not.
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The ONE thing that accounted for 80% of the variance toward success as adults was:

DID THE CHILD FEEL LOVED.

That was it.

So, your assertion that generalized assertions haven't worked out well . . . has an exception in that case.

.

reply to post by andypb


Hey, Dear Heart, it's been a while since we've connected. Would you be willing to give an update? Hugs & Prayers, BoX

[Removed at member request]

reply to post by HackedAlias


Sorry. I just found your post.

The book ATTACHMENTS: . . . by Drs Sibcy and Clinton has 10 steps to take in the back part of it to begin to overcome the effects of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.

As I noted in the thread . . . I have worked hard my 60+ years of life overcoming my very significant degree of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.

I do believe the suggestions in the book are quite helpful.

It is particularly difficult in our era to find folks who are trustworthy friends . . . particularly healthy friends. LOL. It seems like EVERYONE else has a significant degree of ATTACHMENT DISORDER, too.

I think it has been most helpful to me to reach out redemptively, compassionately toward others who are more hurting and worse off than I am. One has to be careful and draw good boundaries to keep from being abused with some RAD folks but it's still been one of the better things I've done.

And, I take pottery classes at the local univ. There are folks there who I can relate well with.

All this has become a much keener issue given the last year I got the left boot of fellowship from my long standing church--rather for very UnChristian reasons and with a lot of hypocrisy on the part of the leadership. LOL. And now . . . with my 91 year old step-dad graduating from this life . . . one cousin in TX and another in TN . . . the sense of isolation has escalated a fair amount.

Nevertheless, in spite of lots of false starts and disappointments . . . I think it's better to reach out to likely candidates than not to. Today, 3 of the folks I texted for lunch after they left church were unavailable. So I went to the Chinese restaurant alone and ended up playing Chinese chess with a waiter--and ended up with an apt for his day off to play some more Chinese chess. That was welcome.

And my waitress and the chess player seemed quite genuinely thankful for the pottery mugs I gave them.

I guess all that to say . . . TAKE BITE-SIZED steps. When something fails, get up and try again.

Keep a journal if it's functional for you--to reflect on and learn from.

Some few folks are mostly trustworthy. Everyone will let one down sooner or later. No one but God is perfect.

Avoid poisonous people who are addicted to negativism. Avoid people given to chronic depression.

I personally am done with finding a marriage partner. Once was enough for me. LOL. And, given the way the world is rushing toward Armageddon at an increasing pace . . . I don't think that I'd want to wrestle with negotiating such an intense relationship on top of the intense dramas with regard to globalism on the world stage.

Besides . . . I have enough trouble taking care of myself and giving what I can to help others' lives improve. I am not interested in trying to take care of someone else wholesale day in and day out. LOL. Though I realize a "help-mate" can at times be priceless. LOL.

Yeah, I have a fair measure of the Ambivalent attachment style in some respects. LOL.

Nevertheless, I don't really fit any of the 4 attachment styles extensively. I'm much more tenacious, vulnerable, emotionally intimate and accessible than the usual RAD victim.

Please keep me posted on your growth and progress. You are welcome to PM me. I'm happy to communicate by email, if you prefer.

Anyway--I'm blessed and encouraged by your kind post. I hope the thread continues to help you in your trek and growth.

I don't think there's a better option than growth.

I think one tends to progress or regress. May as well progress. Regressing is no fun and has no fun results.

Blessings,

reply to post by HackedAlias


BTW, imho, as a psychologist . . .

one has to persist in finding a best fit for a counselor. And, imho, there are relatively few top flight counselors.

However, even a grandfatherly lay person that one resonates well with can serve better than a highly educated jerk for a counselor.

SOME UPDATED LINKS:

OK. This is a good summary of Dr Perry's

ATTACHMENT: THE FIRST CORE STRENGTH:

ATTACHMENT: THE FIRST CORE STRENGTH:

teacher.scholastic.com...

= = =

teacher.scholastic.com...

DR PERRY IS THE BEST AUTHOR I'VE FOUND ON IT IN ARTICLES ON THE NET.

The above one is not the best of his articles but I'm still looking for that one.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Hello Bo
I just discovered this thread, as RAD was not on my list. I was researching ‘bonding’.

I am almost 75 and have ‘suffered‘ detachment all my life.

Unloving and not available parents/siblings.

Physical beatings from Father from an early age into my teens

4 siblings who banded against me (all red-heads except for me?)

Shy, reserved, felt I didn’t belong

Knew at age 15 that no one would ever love me enough to marry me…was attending a wedding when this revelation occurred.

Confused sex with love.

Ended up with a married but legally separated man, thought he would divorce and we would marry

Had a child, now 50.

Left him after 6 years because of his alcoholism and physical abuse. He never supported daughter and me. I worked to support us.

At age 30 was in a back-breaking car accident that left me a partial paraplegic, Daughter was 5, was 6 when I was released from hospital and Rehab.

2 siblings came to see me once in that year, 1 siblings came for first 2 months, 1 sibling came weekly.

Was not an active mother to daughter and our lives were different when I ‘came home’ in a wheelchair. I was learning a different life but still trying to be me, but now felt more left out.

I bought daughter and me a house in 2 years, then in 4 more years she swallowed a bottle of aspirin. We had a talk and her reason was “you and your damned disabilities”. I felt guilty and try to lighten up on her duties, but I take it that is when I felt our bond was broken, or maybe even earlier because of my physical limitations.

She was a Straight A, Honour student through to leaving home at 19 for University, but had been slowly pulling away from me, and she was my only concern in life. After meeting a man, unsuitable for her, she announced their marriage at the end of her 1st year of University, and he couldn’t afford to keep her in school. I said if it were love it would last, but please allow me to put her through school first. (There was a cash settlement for my accident, driver’s fault!) She said, “I love him and we are getting married whether you like it or not and if you don’t then don’t bother to come”. (I’ll *never* forget those words.) Our relationship was basically finished then, although there was still contact and I had no friends within or without of the family. I smoked steadily and drank within reason.

I spent my time volunteering in organizations for disabled people. I made one ‘friend’ and was holding down 7 positions, which kept me busy.

Then I was looking after 2 grandchildren, 3 days per week, 7 hours per day, disabled, and had loaned money to daughter and son-in-law, but I knew it was to keep me ‘attached’ to them. I was being used, but couldn’t say “No” as they were in dire straits financially.

When the younger grandchild was 2, son-in-law dismissed me from his family and that was the biggest blow of my life. It was 1991 and I was 54. She was 29.

When I was 59 I moved 2000 miles away from then, with a man, and put distance between us geographically, to follow along with their distance emotionally. I left him 4 years later, again alcoholism.

She had another child, then divorced him in 1996.

In 2010 she wrote me a letter telling me she was in a relationship whereby she now knew what love was, etc. She indicated ‘partner’ but not lesbian and has never used that word, but I see pictures on Facebook, Even the grandchildren do not contact me.

I finally suspected that that was her problem at age 12 and her pulling away was her confusion over “who/what she was“.

In 2009 I was struck by a car, in my wheelchair, had 3 surgeries and lost the hip in my left leg, rendering it useless. Just 3 months ago I lost my balance (easy to do if not careful) and broke same femur, but other end. Am healing now and leg is even more useless.

At the point of the accident 5 years ago I made a friend., my physical therapist. She is still my friend. After this last break I now needed home help and have another friend. Although they are paid (another cash settlement from this last driver) we share our lives with one another in trust and honesty, but I cannot regain anything from my own family, or old acquaintances. I cannot contribute to the community as I will need my money for the Old Folks’ Home, I suspect, but I do keep these 2 friends in their businesses.

I think I have had too much physical and emotional trauma to ever have a healthy relationship…only with the 2 girls as I told them about my life and why I have no feelings about anything anymore. My emotions are so out of reach I think it is pointless to try to recover

Four siblings and self all in our 70s, and all have different opinions on our early childhood and growing years.

Comments please?