Is there a heaven?

Because if there is, then such a place, or domain, or whatever you want to call "it" by it's very nature, being eternal, as it were, would it not completely both defy our imagination, on the one hand, while at the same time somehow assuring us, that it's there, or indeed somewhere even if not completely in our present moment experience?

ARE we truly blessed who mourn, and satisfied, those of us who hunger and thirst for what is right?

I suspect that that's the real truth, but that it's just something maybe we haven't yet fully caught up to, yet once "had" (possessed) somewhere in the distant past, maybe in a golden age, but there's a memory there, like an eternal place in the heart and soul which can never forget, however deeply buried it may seem to be at this stage, like a taproot, or what Carl Jung called a rhizome, just waiting to burst forth onto the scene, again, as if for the first time. Something or somewhere that although invisible, is nevertheless there, which although not subject to the typical scrutiny of the five sense, very present, very near..

By the very virtue of our own heartfelt experience of being alive (what may be called the personal qualia of human experience), isn't our "creation" our "universe", even if only the localized one we inhabit ALREADY founded somewhere in relation to a first/last cause, or a source, an "alpha and omega" of existence - and if so are we not then already lost and found again, in eternity, by the uncaused cause (1st father) who's very purpose, it would appear, is our OWN present moment existence, as if shared out of a bountiful heart, for the sake of a varied mutual experience, in Christian terms something called Koinonia (communion by intimate participation).

It would certainly be quite the joke at the expense of all our collectively shared prior ignorance and utter supidity, if our very reality and present moment experience is in TRUTH itself a reflection of a higher order, domain or realm, whatever you want to call it, upon which our existence is ALREADY conditioned by virtue of our inclusion, not as a particular somebody, but in that which is already indestructible, imperishable, and which permeates the whole of the universe and the entire spectrum of all being and becoming, sandwiched as it were between two eternities, which cannot be reduced by any division say backwards or forwards, because infinite can never be counted down to zero (present), and since infinitely is what we are in, whether a person believes in the big bang or not, it makes no difference, this is the "predicament" we already find ourselves in, and if we believe our own eyes, the truth which sets us free sets us FREE (eventually) only because it cannot be escaped or avoided!, that is if there is somewhere there there (in you), if the lights are on and someone's home.

No one can deny the qualia of their own existence and state, in a way that is reasonable to the rest of us, that he and by extension we, are just an "it", that's amuzing, and not the least bit congruent with the aspect of our humanity which makes us smile at being called nothing but an "it" a "thing" to even begin with. We already know that's just not true.


Are the "pure in heart" blessed to see God, and the humble and selfless, exalted?

I do think so, when push comes to shove in the final analysis at the end of the day, in other words that eternal, timeless spaceless principals, RULE the universe, and they do so with perfect fairness and therefore with perfect hamony and ease, naturally, like a flowing river of eternal life, already available freely to all who thirst for that which is imperishable, inconchorable, yet joyful and light, playful, and curious, like a child. Something FUN, amuzing, enjoyable, and never boring, always fresh and new (the real reality).

And so where our heart is, there our treasure is also.

Is there a heaven?

There either is or there isn't, but I cannot deny my own experience, namely that there is much much more going on than meets the eye, while at the same time extending it's loving sphere of influence and making itself known, and unknowable, both.

And then words come to an end.



Heaven, are you there? Knock knock.

We either know the answer to this question, or we do not know, and yet willingly not knowing brings a gnosis of the unknowable, the unfathomable, the unimaginable, even the unthinkable.

But it's not beyond reason, it's before it. It's what we already KNEW, that's what I think, that's what I "know" intuitively.

It makes me laugh.

Even getting to pose this very question, and make this thread, no matter what anyone responds with, is already heaven, to me, so thank you in advance for contributing your slice, whether in words or in silent contemplation of something we so desperately need to bring in by whatever means, because if it's there, which it is, we need a LOT more of it, especially these days God only knows!

"Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name (goes by many names)
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
AMEN.

So that's what I say.

Heaven?

Bring it on!

tell you what my brother...i'll buy the idea of heaven way before i buy into "hell"!

the only hang up with heaven is how people describe it. i'd imagine the heaven you and i think of is much different than the heaven that typical religious folks think of. all labels aside...i know that there is something better than this on the other side...can't deny what you've seen for yourself...

as for hell...if you believe in hell...you are probably living there...

There is a Heaven/Home and you are always there.

Ribbit

reply to post by ICEKOHLD

I am banning the use of the word hell in this thread.

You used it three times, but I forgive you instantly.

No hell in heaven, and if heaven is knowable, then no hell at all! Except maybe the hell we give ourselves for not seeing this and recognizing it sooner! Darn, i said, TWICE.

Because of the nature of the question - there is no hell, not in this thread, that would be totally off topic, and DUMB!

But someone will come along with that - who knows, it might even be funny, anything's possible!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by ICEKOHLD

 

I am banning the use of the word hell in this thread.

You used it three times, but I forgive you instantly.

No hell in heaven, and if heaven is knowable, then no hell at all! Except maybe the hell we give ourselves for not seeing this and recognizing it sooner! Darn, i said, TWICE.

Because of the nature of the question - there is no hell, not in this thread, that would be totally off topic, and DUMB!

But someone will come along with that - who knows, it might even be funny, anything's possible!

Hell + n0thing = Hello

Ribbit

Here's a thought....

What if we are in Hell, and we must learn to live at peace with ourselves and those around us so we learn to live in harmony with the worst of what "life" has to offer?

What if this is just the test that decides whether we get to move onto the next "heaven/dimension/level", or be condemned to endure the test again through reincarnation?

Is there a heaven? Yes.

What Heaven is will be up to the individual and I'm sure it's better than anything we could imagine.

reply to post by sheepslayer247

I agree, I think it's there, but re: here on earth, for some among us, we might even be willing to endure countless reincarnations right here, because of our love for humanity, and the earth itself, which isn't a throwaway world, and isn't meant to be in hell in the fullness of time and history.

"When the hearts of men change, kingdoms will change."

John the Baptist.

This thread is actually my attempt to help create a better space to reincarnate into, if need be, but then again, if not us, then who, and if not now, then WHEN?!

from what I can tell, nothing but heaven (however slowly it might begin to creep in) is reasonable or makes any sense at all?! But am I crazy? No. And that too really makes me laugh.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Perhaps heaven is simply what each and every person interprets it to be.

My heaven would be completely different than what yours would be. That's what makes it heaven!

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Perhaps heaven is simply what each and every person interprets it to be.

My heaven would be completely different than what yours would be. That's what makes it heaven!

edit on 14-3-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

...there will be similarities in our interpretation, I think, like the concept that it's literally all good in heaven.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


OK i know we all wonder, but i ask you all to watch this movie "The invention of lying" it is a funny movie but it shares a light on the what if's. Like this one: what if jesus was the first person able to lie? what if said all those things to help man kind. But it is just a movie, so dont get caught up in it.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Perhaps heaven is simply what each and every person interprets it to be.

My heaven would be completely different than what yours would be. That's what makes it heaven!

edit on 14-3-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

I kind of think the same. There's a bible verse John 14:2- "In my Father's house are many mansions"I've always believed that to mean as you said, what each of us wants or desires. I do think it's a place free of heartache and disease.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And so where our heart is, there our treasure is also.

Through suffering, and on the other side of all fear, there is an unmatched and unparalleled, joy, even ecstatic TRIUMPH, yes even through the eventual dissolution, breakdown and death of the physical body in its present form, becasause you cannot kill nor destroy the love of God that you already are. "To thine own self be true."

And whoever among us, at any time, wins "it" the cosmic lottary jackpot of herioc "bodhisatva-hood", they immediately of course proceed to share it freely with one and all, here and everywhere. You could call it a "redistribution of wealth" of the very best kind, a new order, who's ultimate governing dynamic, universally, is love, plain and simple, in compassionate, yet unmoved (in pleasure or pain, success or apparent failure, admired or scorned), eternal, triumphant, JOY, being in the right spirit, the right being, thinking and action, yet without attachment to the fruits of the outcome, trusting that what's right and good, in alignment with the best, is formative, and therefore, glorifying at both ends, and right across the entire spectrum of all being and becoming.

That's the very "stuff" of heaven - here, have some, for free to all who hunger and thirst for what's right and true, and good, and therefore happy, and everlasting, eternal, without compare.

When it comes it's like something both old and new, something borrowed, something blue.. for a wedding (just kidding around), but that's what it's like, something fit to adorn a beautiful bride on her wedding day, but novel, creative, fresh and new (heaven is never stale or static, although unmoved and the same from age to age, a bit of a paradox, as is any truth).


So thsis thread, I hope, isn't going to attempt to simply describe what we "already know" of heaven, even if it's that there is no such thing, but instead, to consider, with an open mind, and a beginners mind, the unimaginable, and the unfathomable, as if it's already true, or not.. (can't be "not" since it already IS).

And that I have the freedom to posit the question, there is something heavenly about that as a possibility for the reader to consider such a question in a new way and a new light ie: not according to a materialist monism based solely on what can be percieved via the five senses - and it just wouldn't be the same without you, I want you to really "get" that too, and understand that perfectly, recognizing at the same time that there's no way you (or I) can fathom the true depths of who and what you/we really are, and there, right there where the two meet, the otherwise unknown, made known through personal experience, in the will to love, and to share in mutuality (koinonia - communion of intimate participation) - there it is!!!

It doesn't matter that we cannot quite place our finger on it, and say THIS IS IT! We know already that it doesn't work that way, since it cannot be pinned down. Radically free, "like the wind that blows wherever it will, and while you can hear it, and feel it - from whence it comes or whither it goes, no one can say. So it is with all who are born of the spirit." (paraphrased).

Reborn, from "above" (domain of the eternal, timeless spaceless, first principal, or first/last cause)

Reborn

go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

Note catefully, the subtle nuances (intentionally directed) in this exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus surrounding the issue of rebirth. For Jesus, given his controversial birth and early upbringing, there was probably no other option than to be reborn in accord with a new spiritual life and identity.

And no this isn't a preaching thread, about a strictly Christian interpretation, but if a spiritual tradition has something to say, I won't hesitate to include it, but I'll add snippets from the Bhagavad Gita for balance, and in truth both traditions and understandings spring from the same source anyway, in deep, contemplative consideration of the relationship between Atman and Brahman. For more on this, see the ATS thread in Ancient & Lost Civilizations called The Jews and all modern religious traditions originated in ancient India.

if there is a hEAven I like the way our ANcestors named it after Ea
I prefer to think of it as the
happy hunting and fishing grounds of cold beer and hot women
as opposed to that other place with hot beer and cold women...(be good don't go here)

I think this post added to another thread is also relevant to this one, as a type of mathematical and logical proof of "heaven" as a high domain of perfection and limitless possibility in eternity.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by PhysicsAdept

 

That's right. From infinity you can't count down to zero, which means that we're already in eternity, whether you believe in the "big bang" or not, which itself could very well be one of an infinite number of singularities. This would then logically lead to the notion of an eternal recurrence, to which I would add evolutionary eternal recurrence, meaning that while the present configuration of now, is eternal, as an eternally unfolding now, it will never repeat itself, except at a higher level, once integrated. Reality itself then is an eternal evolutionary process of differentiation and reintegration, within an ever expanding sphere of perfection, wholeness and integrity. The implication is this is astounding, and signifies, at least to me in my mind and from what I've gathered, the immamence of the kingdom of heaven made present, as a higher reality, always ascending and descending, drawing forever upward that which is lowly, towards ever increasing heights of perfection, as an eternal, evolutionary, process, within with we are already included, and cannot be excluded, unless our aim and our will has been corrupted and has become already fruitless, then we're in need of yes, redemption and forgiveness, to clear the slate, and in truth, the whole thing is "rebooted" and made fresh at every moment, since the truth and the reality itself is never static, and therefore never dead. We then, to experience life and reality as it is and participate more fully, need ourselves also to be rebooted and made new again, and brought from dead, to alive in a type of baptism, in the living waters of cosmic awareness and the free flow of the living water of eternal life as it is, lived more fully and completely, in eternity.


1/∞ = heaven (or hell of one's own making).

This is very good news (with only a very small warning)!

Best Regards,

NAM

On the unconditioned ground of all being and becoming, love, to BE love, must also be absolutely free, without constraint or limitation, it cannot be coersed or forced. Strong religious indictrination under threat of hellfire for example, isn't love at all. It can only therefore be extended invitationally, freely given, and freely recieved in kind, or there's no love there to begin with. At the same time, since love to be love must also be a love of action, it must also be willing to go to any lengths in extending itself, and if by any length is implied the whole length, then love stretches across "heaven" whether as a higher dimension, and/or the doverning dynamic applicable to all sentients the universe over, and all the way there and back again, to our very present moment right here on earth, right here and now.

"The kiingdom of heaven is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it"

~ "heretical" Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

The impermanence has no reality; reality lies in the eternal. Those who have seen the boundary between these two have attained the end of knowledge. Realize that which pervades the universe and is indestructible; no power can affect this unchanging, imperishable reality. The body is mortal, but that which dwells in the body is immortal and immesasurable."

~ Krishna to Arjuna, before the big battle (an allegory for the battle within) from "The Ghagavad Gita" as translated by Eknath Easwaran

I recently read that Heaven is not as most think of it. Heaven actually means "Land/Realm of our Fathers". So yes Heaven is real but in modern terms it is another realm where our ancient, immortal ancestors who escaped from earth are currently residing.

Interesting observations about Heaven:

The bible says that in the end that "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away" which literally suggests there are multiple Heavens/Universes.

The Nag Hammadi Library, aka the Gnostic Gospels, describes multiple universes called "Aeons" and suggests that the purpose of the ancient mysteries has been to teach the pure of heart how to pass between realms. The Gospel of Thomas says anyone who discovers the true meaning of the biblical parables "will not taste death".

Modern science is finally catching up with ancient religion. Dr. Michio Kaku talks of being able to tune to different parallel universes, something akin to changing the station on your radio except this "radio" is in our own minds.

Movies like The Matrix depict the ability to wake up from the illusion of reality and pass from one realm to another. A line from The Matrix says "If the war was over today then Zion is where the party would be". As many already know, Zion is the place where God dwells according to the bible. The Matrix also suggest that those who have a full understanding are able to hack other people's minds. Neo realizes that "Programs are hacking programs" referring to Illuminati manipulating the minds of people within the Matrix and the realm of Zion to which he ascended. Also, games like Assasin's Creed depict a "Matrix Style" interaction with earthly realms. These are the titles that stand out to me but I am sure the list of similar movies/games could go on and on (The 13th floor, The Truman Show, Chronicles of Narnia, etc).


To me, none of this is fiction but actually fact. Truth has been hidden in plain sight under the guise of science fiction. Access to other realms is available within our own minds but only for the pure of heart. The bible says "The kingdom of Heaven is within" but most of us have our minds locked down in such a way that we simply can not see them. Furthermore, if we could see the pathways in our mind then passing from one realm to another would be incredibly challenging. To unlock ones mind requires a significant degree of spiritual development, overcoming the darkside within us. It also requires a great deal of spiritual strength. A number of challenges await anyone who thinks they can walk the path and great men have fallen.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Is there a heaven?


Yes, there is, and there HAS to be, no matter how mysterious or inexplicable or ineffible.

To me, this is just the funnest thing in the world, to be forced to conclude, and for reasons that I cannot say and which cannot possibly be expressed in words.



Yes, there IS a heaven. We just don't (and cannot) know what it is, except maybe, even if only to the very smallest degree by our own inkling of intution, if not by our willingness, and good-hearted, good-natured inclination to share in the humor, the joy, the laughter, and in the unending eternal mystery that is the creation and life within which we already find ourselves emersed, whether we like it or not.

It's a mystery then, but one of an invitational variety, even in its presentation.

So life is not JUST an uinfathomable miracle of the farthest reaching significance and proportion, but a cute and playful one at that! It's friandly. And it beckons us to explore it's unfathomable depths, which although appartently impossible according to our subjective sensory impressions, is possible at a much deeper level, where mirth, humor and joy of the everlasting variety abides, like another domain already implicit and implied by our present moment experience.

It's absurd, you see, but only in the best possible way. It's not void and empty, and indifferent, or impersonal - but instead of the utmost immediacy (in koinonia). And as a living human being having a spiritual experience, it's about as personal, as you can get! This then is the child-parent type I-thou relationship with God as the first father of creation and the absolute, and it's built and founded on trust, which comes with the knowledge or gnosis of real faith, but not a blind faith, a faith that is itself initiated as a starting point, by reason.


It's crazy funny in the most sane and rational manner, for those who will and are able to comprehend this humorous mystery, which evokes, from a childlike, good-willed, good-natured HUMOR, a much greater depth of understanding, wisdom or gnosis, which is the real or actual recognition (re cognition) of our true state as it is (a mystery, and and absurd one at that).

You've either got it, or you don't, but if you don't, it's definitely gettable, and for most of us, when we "enter in", we discover to our utter dismay that it's something we had with us all along, and, that was waiting for us with a degree of precision timing that totally blows the mind!

Like all protaganists for "god", "jesus" and "heaven" all the discussion is centred on the individual's own belief.
There is never any scientific proof offered, just beliefs being masquaraded as truths by the believers.
You believe that heaven exists, that is fine.
But to state that it definitively exists and thus we should all 'believe' that it exists is the fallacy perpetuated by believers.
For every believer that exists there is an unbeliever, but it seems that it is always the believer that has the need to espouse something's existence, unbelievers just get on living life to the full.
As for me I am only persuaded by facts.
I do study the bible, but only the old testament and Genesis in particular.
I think that in that chapter are interesting writings that are glossed over by the modern christians.
The new testament has been highjacked by a lot of these same christians and their religious leaders to their own ends, often involving money.