Time to ban the Burqa?

This is what banning a piece of clothing does to HUMAN BEINGS .

Originally posted by 23432
This is what banning a piece of clothing does to HUMAN BEINGS .

Banning a very normal bit of clothing like a head scarf is insane, the Burqa on the other hand means more than just clothing.

Originally posted by DarkATi
Boy, this scares me (banning the burka).

I'm not from the UK; I'm from the United States. Over here we have a constitution with amendments, and the very first says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I'm not a Muslim, I am a Christian, but I view a ban on the burka as a clear "law respecting an establishment of religion" (Islam) and the "free exercise thereof". If a woman wants to wear a burka, head covering, veil, etc (or, even if she feels that she "has to" in order to be a "good Muslim") then I believe it is her constitutional right to do so.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

Cheers,
Cody

Sorry mate but its thinking like that which has left you with virtually mini Islamic states in some of your smaller cities, you have extended the hand of freedom far too long. The problem being ignored her is mutual acceptability, so far Radical Muslims have been given far more freedom than their non Muslim equals.

No other off shoot of a religion has been given the social freedoms and exclusives than radical Islam, some times the other side has to be given a chance..

Originally posted by 23432
Today in Turkey , women who wear headscarfs are not allowed to have an equal stand with those who don't wear a headscarf .

The only democratic Islamic state in the world is Turkey. The Turkish army has had to stage coups 4 times since World War II to stop Islamic extremists taking power.

Unfortunately the current Turkish Prime Minister, Erdogan, is a hardline Muslim, reflecting the Turkish army's unease at the rise of radical Islam in Turkey in recent years. A few quotes from the Turkish PM:-

"Democracy was a train, from which you could alight once you reached your destination."

Erdogan, Turkish PM

www.financialexpress.com...

"The Muslim world is waiting for Turkey to rise up. We will rise up! With Allah's permission, the rebellion will start."

Erdogan, Turkish PM

and

"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers."

Erdogan, Turkish PM

www.dailymail.co.uk...

He was actually sent to prison for the last statement, but the Turkish constitution was later changed to allow him to be the PM.

He has also stated, when talking to a crowd of 16,000 Turkish immigrants in Germany and then repeated in a speech to parliament in Ankara:-

"Assimlation is a crime is a crime against humanity".

Erdogan, Turkish PM

www.bbc.co.uk...
europenews.dk...

The veil and hence the burqa is officially still outlawed in Turkey.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by 23432
This is what banning a piece of clothing does to HUMAN BEINGS .

Banning a very normal bit of clothing like a head scarf is insane, the Burqa on the other hand means more than just clothing.

That's how it starts and the example is the Turkish experience in this matter .

Once you start banning simple clothing , it inevitably leads to an oppression of one form or the other .

In democracies , human beings have a freedom of choice .

Issue is that simple .

Take away that choice and democracy suffers .

If my kids start to wear a burqa , I would be very disappointed but I would still not see it as my right to tell them what to wear or not .

Western democracies are going to learn from Turkish experience in how to oppress women ?

Oh the irony !!!



This is a false dichotomy .

I am a secular human being who doesn't believe in oppression of women in any way or form .

All those who wants a ban are actually emulating extremists .

Don't fall for it is the only advice I can give you .

Democracy ought to be greater then this piece of clothing .

Banning burqa is not the solution. It pointlessly restricts freedoms, gives arguments to the other side, and ultimately solves nothing.
Banning, or restricting the mass immigration of muslims is the only solution.

Originally posted by 23432

In democracies , human beings have a freedom of choice .

Issue is that simple .

Indeed, the majority of British people support a ban.

The majority of British adults believe that the burqa, a loose garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions for the purpose of hiding a female’s body and face when out in public, should be completely banned in Britain, a recent poll on behalf of Channel 5 news has found.

67% of respondents agree that the burqa should be completely banned in Britain, with 42% of those in agreement feeling strongly.

labs.yougov.co.uk...
YouGov Poll

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by DarkATi
Boy, this scares me (banning the burka).

I'm not from the UK; I'm from the United States. Over here we have a constitution with amendments, and the very first says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Such stuff is not actually part of their religion though...its their culture.
If you really want to dig, the whole covering up is in all the judeo-christian religions, but it is a suggestion moreso than a religious law...
but, ya..this is a culture thing, not a religious thing.

That's fine. It's still an intrusion on civil liberties, though I would argue that it is a religious issue also.

Whether or not the burka is mandated in the writings of Islam, it is a part of their religious culture (as you say). I have heard from Muslim women that feel it is their religious duty to honor Allah by wearing coverings. I bet they'd tell you it is a religious issue.

Again, it doesn't really matter what you call it. Don't you think it's a bad idea for the government to begin stipulating what a person can or cannot wear? Police State anyone?

I'd rather have my freedom and burkas, while enduring the risks of terrorism with my civil liberties, than a government that tells me exactly what I can and cannot do all the time.

Cheers,
Cody

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

The people who wear the Burqa are Wahhabists or followers of that, these follow Shariah law, remember that good old sharaiah law?

The Burqa is the garment of Radical Islam..

Oh, one last thing, you do know that most ordinary Muslims do NOT agree with the burqa, they see it as not part of the religion. Ask them, I did....

Not all Wahhabi are terrorists but almost all Muslim terrorists are Wahhabi.

Incidently, when you see that nice new mosque being built near where you live, and wonder where the money came from, it probably came from Saudi Wahhabi sources. Radical Islam no less.

Not moderate Islam to which the vast majority of Muslims subscribe. Radical Islam that thinks everyone should live their life like Muhammad in the 7th century and who reject modern technology unless they can use it to blow you up.

Of the more than 1,200 mosques in America, more than 80-percent were built with Saudi money, according to author Reza F. Safa.

In fact, Safa writes that the Saudis have spent “$87 billion since 1973 to spread Islam throughout the United States and the Western hemisphere.”

Elsewhere in the world, it is believed that Saudi Arabia finances some 85-percent of the world’s mosques, where the vitriolic and violent Wahabbist interpretation of Islam is taught.

www.nationalreview.com...

Most Muslims are moderate.

If however you want to find some radical Muslims, just follow a burqa.

edit on 15-3-2012 by ollncasino because: spelling

You probably have not read one of my many rants on this subject, all I'll say is that I'm extremely clued up on the whole Islamic religion, one form having family in it and the other from research.

I am NOT a Muslim myself.

I usually start of by stating the 3 types of Muslim, the normal Muslim who prays, has a faith, integrates well and most would walk past in a street and have no clue they were a Muslim, then the Moderates of whom I have a HUGE mistrust, most Moderates I've known or researched tend to be the invisible link for Radical Islam, often playing a diplomatic role but actually they are normally very very closely linked to the radicals.

Normally you will find these saying one thing to the West and quite the opposite to the Saudi's who fund them.

Lastly the Radicals, they need no introduction....

As you have said its the Saudi's who happily fund and propagate the radcials, spending untold fortunes building Mosques in the West, training the clerics who come to teach the hatred, installing direct video learning from Saudi and so much more.

The money they spend on this could have cleaned up Ethiopia 20X over...

People just do not understand the level of commitment the Saudi's have to making their ideal happen, these are not a few mad men...

Their agenda is simple but the way its done is far more complex..

As I said, once you see a burqa then there's radical people around them, guaranteed.

I wish there were more people like yourself and myself who have actually looked at the facts, looked into the religion about what is fact and fiction, seen the resources being put out to these radicals and the 'super mosques' they want to / are building.

Instead we get people going on about beards and baggy trousers totally ignoring what is behind the burqa (and not just a woman with more hair on the top lip than my head) (oops)

Seriously, people have to look with better eye's stop listening to "its only a few loonies", stop saying its only a burqa, a bit of cloth..Its far more serious than that...

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by 23432

Banning a piece of cloth for security reasons ?

No .

Are you suggesting that people should be allowed to wear crash helmets or balaclavas in banks?

Police hunt Sydney burka bandit

A man has been robbed at gunpoint by a bandit dressed in a burka in Sydney's south yesterday.

www.abc.net.au...

Are you suggesting bank robbers won't wear a mask in the bank because it is illegal?

---

So when burkas are banned only criminals will have burkas ...

Imagine the muslim population continues to grow at it's current rate across Europe. People will feel very uneasy if 10% of the populations faces are covered when they're outside.

If it's not banned in the UK soon, it will be eventually.

Originally posted by DarkATi


That's fine. It's still an intrusion on civil liberties, though I would argue that it is a religious issue also.

Whether or not the burka is mandated in the writings of Islam, it is a part of their religious culture (as you say). I have heard from Muslim women that feel it is their religious duty to honor Allah by wearing coverings. I bet they'd tell you it is a religious issue.

Again, it doesn't really matter what you call it. Don't you think it's a bad idea for the government to begin stipulating what a person can or cannot wear? Police State anyone?

I'd rather have my freedom and burkas, while enduring the risks of terrorism with my civil liberties, than a government that tells me exactly what I can and cannot do all the time.

Cheers,
Cody

Fact, its NOT a religious issue to do with the Koran, whatever a woman or man extolling it may say its NOTHING to do with the Koran, its a man made rule. Women who say they are honouring Allah by wearing it are either poorly educated or have been misinformed, what's worse is that they are actually honouring their husbands because its their rule being enforced.

Technically honouring the husband instead of allah is a no no.

As for the Police state, well lets be honest, freedom does not actually exist in life, freedom is actually defined but how many or how few choices you have in life, you are never truly free.

Ignore that the Burqa is a symbol of oppression, if a woman likes being oppressed that's her life UT its what the burqa truly stands for that should be an issue here. The Burqa stands for radical Islam, radical Islam stands for the removal of YOUR freedoms.

People really must stop just seeing it as a bit of cloth.......Should we allow people to walk around in KKK clothes?

I doubt that one will catch on....

Personally I see radical islam as the Borg of the off shoot religious world, consume, assimilate, move on to the next peoples.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by 23432

In democracies , human beings have a freedom of choice .

Issue is that simple .

Indeed, the majority of British people support a ban.

The majority of British adults believe that the burqa, a loose garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions for the purpose of hiding a female’s body and face when out in public, should be completely banned in Britain, a recent poll on behalf of Channel 5 news has found.

67% of respondents agree that the burqa should be completely banned in Britain, with 42% of those in agreement feeling strongly.

labs.yougov.co.uk...
YouGov Poll

That is a slippery slope that you are on , beware !

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by DarkATi
Boy, this scares me (banning the burka).

I'm not from the UK; I'm from the United States. Over here we have a constitution with amendments, and the very first says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I'm not a Muslim, I am a Christian, but I view a ban on the burka as a clear "law respecting an establishment of religion" (Islam) and the "free exercise thereof". If a woman wants to wear a burka, head covering, veil, etc (or, even if she feels that she "has to" in order to be a "good Muslim") then I believe it is her constitutional right to do so.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

Cheers,
Cody

Sorry mate but its thinking like that which has left you with virtually mini Islamic states in some of your smaller cities, you have extended the hand of freedom far too long. The problem being ignored her is mutual acceptability, so far Radical Muslims have been given far more freedom than their non Muslim equals.

No other off shoot of a religion has been given the social freedoms and exclusives than radical Islam, some times the other side has to be given a chance..

"...you have extended the hand of freedom far too long." No, sir. We have not extended the hand of freedom nearly long enough. Freedom (liberty) is an inalienable right of all people - "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - it is a fundamental American belief.

You won't end terrorism by banning the burka; you will only fuel the fire, while treading on the rights of many innocent Muslims.

Cheers,
Cody

Originally posted by 23432

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by 23432
This is what banning a piece of clothing does to HUMAN BEINGS .

Banning a very normal bit of clothing like a head scarf is insane, the Burqa on the other hand means more than just clothing.

That's how it starts and the example is the Turkish experience in this matter .

Once you start banning simple clothing , it inevitably leads to an oppression of one form or the other .

In democracies , human beings have a freedom of choice .

Issue is that simple .

Take away that choice and democracy suffers .

If my kids start to wear a burqa , I would be very disappointed but I would still not see it as my right to tell them what to wear or not .

I totally disagree on all points, the burqa is a symbol of a non compatible culture, that's a simple but important fact, a culture that does not want to live along side of another one like ordinary Muslims like yourself who don't mind. The radical ideal is one Islamic state ran under Shariah, shariah isn't compatible.

The head scarf as you well know was the accepted face of Muslims wish for modesty for women, a simple normal bit of head ware seen through the east and west, it does not single out that person as different in the way a full burqa does. Women are asked (important, asked) to wear clothing and a scarf that covers most of the hair and covers from the neck down to the ankles, preferably not figure hugging but that's the choice of the wearer.

As for the choice of wearing, I would hope you would advise your child not to wear it as it stands them out, stands for the oppression of women (as the woman who the husband has asked to wear it has no choice in the matter it makes no odds what she says, its enforced) and stands for a man made part of your religion that helps target you as part of the threat by any allegiance made to them as in I'm not allowed to judge a fellow Muslim, only Allah can judge, for me that is a cop out, if you have a cancer you cut it out, you don't just say, well its part of my body as a whole.

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by DarkATi


That's fine. It's still an intrusion on civil liberties, though I would argue that it is a religious issue also.

Whether or not the burka is mandated in the writings of Islam, it is a part of their religious culture (as you say). I have heard from Muslim women that feel it is their religious duty to honor Allah by wearing coverings. I bet they'd tell you it is a religious issue.

Again, it doesn't really matter what you call it. Don't you think it's a bad idea for the government to begin stipulating what a person can or cannot wear? Police State anyone?

I'd rather have my freedom and burkas, while enduring the risks of terrorism with my civil liberties, than a government that tells me exactly what I can and cannot do all the time.

Cheers,
Cody

Fact, its NOT a religious issue to do with the Koran, whatever a woman or man extolling it may say its NOTHING to do with the Koran, its a man made rule. Women who say they are honouring Allah by wearing it are either poorly educated or have been misinformed, what's worse is that they are actually honouring their husbands because its their rule being enforced.

The New Testament doesn't say that I have to wear a particular kind of clothing, but if I feel that I should, in order to worship and honor my God, I ought to be allowed this freedom.

Technically honouring the husband instead of allah is a no no.

As for the Police state, well lets be honest, freedom does not actually exist in life, freedom is actually defined but how many or how few choices you have in life, you are never truly free.

I agree that perfect freedom does not truly exist (that is, outside of heaven), but we must never grow weary of fighting for the cause of freedom in this world.

Ignore that the Burqa is a symbol of oppression, if a woman likes being oppressed that's her life UT its what the burqa truly stands for that should be an issue here. The Burqa stands for radical Islam, radical Islam stands for the removal of YOUR freedoms.

Freedom of expression and terrorism are not one and the same. If I want to stand up and say that I support the ideals of radical Islam, then it is my right to do so (I don't, by the way). Belief and actions are not equal. For example, a man who hates black people and believes that they all should be killed is not the same as a man who goes out and actually kills black people.

People really must stop just seeing it as a bit of cloth.......Should we allow people to walk around in KKK clothes?

I doubt that one will catch on....

Yes, we should.

Personally I see radical islam as the Borg of the off shoot religious world, consume, assimilate, move on to the next peoples.

This much we can certainly agree upon. Radical Islam just wants to take over the world, but then again so does Christianity. You see, it isn't the ideal (taking over the world) that is dangerous, it is the implementation of an ideal that can be dangerous (Christianity being spread through kindness and love vs. Christianity being spread by the crusades). There is a right and a wrong way to go about almost anything.

Cheers,
Cody

Originally posted by DarkATi

"...you have extended the hand of freedom far too long." No, sir. We have not extended the hand of freedom nearly long enough. Freedom (liberty) is an inalienable right of all people - "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - it is a fundamental American belief.

You won't end terrorism by banning the burka; you will only fuel the fire, while treading on the rights of many innocent Muslims.

Cheers,
Cody

edit on 15-3-2012 by DarkATi because: (no reason given)

So you are fine with cities in your countries becoming Muslim extremist strongholds, places where Christians are asked to leave or bullied.

I'm sorry but your ideals are the perfect target for a trojan horse event, shout America the strong while you are having YOUR social liberties marginalised.

Mind you, like us Brits you were not so fair about human rights when you took others land of them and destroyed their cultures. Seems the good old fairness and freedom meant something else then.

At the end of the day we have the same problem all over again..Religion..

How about banning that...

I still think people are failing to observe the basic rights of a resident culture, it should be allowed to be wary of things looking to change it, Radical Islam IS looking to do this, the Burqa IS a symbol of Radical Islam, are people just ignoring what is happening out in Nigeria etc where radical Islam is destroying people and religions who it does not approve of.

Is that what we want here, the people here who have immigrated from poor Arabic countries show the same fervour for the death of innocents.

Forget the Burqa for a second, like at the ideals behind it, these are simply against OUR way of life, we are not forcing our way of life by stopping them believing in this off shoot of Islam but we should not be helping promote it for goodness sake. Its like asking Geoffrey Dahmler to dinner and leaving 50 sharp knives all over the place.

Radical Islam has a certain rule that allows them to lie to who they think are the enemy, its a rule quite odd in a religion as religion should be spreading peace and truth.

All of this should bother people, I saw a point that shouting about hating black people is not the same as actually doing it, of course because that applies to a single person shouting their gob off for mental or drug problems BUT when its a big crowd suddenly that same argument falls over as now its a mob preaching hate and is almost certain to end in either arrests or confrontation with fatalities. Its gone from freedom of speech / stupidity to inciting violence, oppressing people, frightening people. If you think a screaming lump of white KKK types should be allowed to express their opinion as a poor old black lady tries to get past while being treated to some of the most vile hate she may ever hear is fine then freedom has gone mad.

I find a group of Radicals screaming at me and my wife as being kuffars both intimidating and unwanted, I find a group of radicals calling my wife a kuffar whore while in groups disgusting, I find out mixed race marriage being targeted by radicals screaming hate and threats unacceptable in my land of birth.

There MUST be rules, there MUST be things classed as unacceptable..

Without this we slip further and further down the slops of anything goes, all that leads to is a lawless nightmare where the innocent get hurt first, if that's what's allowed by someone's supposed rules of freedom then the asylum has finally taken over.

Originally posted by 23432

Western democracies are going to learn from Turkish experience in how to oppress women ?

Oh the irony !!!

This is a false dichotomy .

I am a secular human being who doesn't believe in oppression of women in any way or form .

All those who wants a ban are actually emulating extremists .

Don't fall for it is the only advice I can give you .

Democracy ought to be greater then this piece of clothing .

Sorry, but the irony here is that the very people we are talking about do not believe in democracy so you would have no freedom of choice.