Time to ban the Burqa?

Last time I checked there was freedom of religion in Europe right? So if a Muslim women CHOOSES to cover herself, who are you or the state to say what she is wearing is sooo offensive it should not be worn?

entitled to your opinion, but not entitled to deprive someone of their religious expression.

Ban the freedom of religion. Ban the brainwashing. We are it, this is it. People have far to much imagination. You're born, you die. Its simple. We live on a rock spinning around a star. Isn't that enough to think about? Isn't that the stuff dreams are made of? We are stellar. Everything we do is full of starlight. When you breath or sigh, sing or cry. These things we do shine. I am a god, so are you.

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
__________________

To the bigots it would not matter when being near
sighted, minorities all look the same to them whether
wearing a scarf or not.
__________________

Muslim Canadian Congress Calls for Burka Ban

CBC News Canada


Are you seriously suggesting that the Muslim Canadian Congress are bigots who think all minorities look the same?

"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs

en.wikipedia.org..."

That would be you.

I just love all the Americans jumping in to tell us brits that we are bigots and racial for wanting to ban the burqa in our country.

Its nothing to do with you, its OUR freedom of speech, if you don't like it then ignore us, the US has a long history of telling other countries what they must think, please don't think it applies here.

And of course its totally ironic...

What also makes me laugh for the wrong reason is the fact that none of you are reading what myself and Ollncasino are saying, instead you jump in calling us bigots and racial yet if you look you will see we share a solidarity with the Muslim people. My in laws are Muslim, my wife is Muslim, I've been totally accepted by my extended family and as a common decency I've learnt about their religion so I DON'T upset them so when I hear that I'm racial or a bigot I think its a bit rich considering.

Do you know as much about the religion as me, have you any real understanding of the types of Muslims, do you know what an Imam does, do you know about the hadiths, do you really know anything other than you read in your favourite rag or what your beloved politician tells you?

I've talked to many types of Muslim, I've heard what they think and for the majority of the 'normal' Muslims they do not accept the way of wuhabbists, they don't see them as proper Muslims, yet suddenly all these people who have these liberal views actually denounce what these Muslims think and by doing so call THEM racists and bigots.

You lot have a bloody nerve, you are interfering in their religion and beliefs and yelling them that YOU know what's best for them....Get a grip FFS, many of you simply have no clue what's behind the idea of a ban and who wants it.

I'd guess that many of the freedom of speech lot are also supporters of freedom of drug use, freedom of expression, freedom of actions?

Well if you are, take a good look around you at this world, people have never been allowed to be more free to do as they like but what do we have, people running rampant with guns and knives, drugs on every street corner, kids as young as 7 smoking drugs as a daily habit, teenage pregnancy as a norm, people throwing litter everywhere, we trash the planet 7 days a week 24hrs a day. The economy is at the brink of failing yet we still give bankers huge bonuses, we allow our politicians to STEAL our money and treat themselves as a different species.

All this because of the freedoms of society....

You know, just sometimes we have to follow rules, sometimes a routine IS good for us, sometimes we should be told you cannot just do as you like, sometimes you have to stop living in your spoilt fantasy world of putting you first and sod the rest..

I've not seen one valid argument about not banning the burqa, I have however seen a lot of chest puffing and hot air, a lot of it using the US as a symbol of freedom, are you insane, have you not seen what us Brits and the US have done in the world, we actively deny peoples freedoms daily, we interrogate people beyond the word of the law, we enter peoples countries for war gains.

I don't think we have the right to use our countries as symbols of freedom to be honest, the average man on the street actually knows the score.

And still people do not get the irony of their defence of the burqa, the very people who wear it support a system that would take your freedom and throw it away, you would be made to follow blindly and many of the nice things to take for granted would be removed from your life, YET you defend the ideals behind them blindly.

People get put in insane asylums for less...

Originally posted by Tschusterbauer
Last time I checked there was freedom of religion in Europe right? So if a Muslim women CHOOSES to cover herself, who are you or the state to say what she is wearing is sooo offensive it should not be worn?

entitled to your opinion, but not entitled to deprive someone of their religious expression.

Oh yeah, I love this argument. In my religion I have to sacrifice babies, so I can kill babies right? Otherwise your infringing on my religion. I can't take photos, or I believe my soul will be ripped out of my body. That is why I can't have a photo ID, or your infringing on my religion.


When I get a drivers license I have to get a photo ID, when I go to vote, I should have to present this ID, when I walk into a building I do so without covering my face in a mask. She can still choose to cover her face, just not during the photo ID picture, not when she's inside a bank, not when she's entering a government office, not when shes in jail, not when shes voting. You don't like it, no one is forcing you to stay here.

reply to post by Mclaneinc


I wonder if people will ever use the meat in between their ears.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SprocketUK
When I looked at the sample size I was unsurprised to learn that these polls consisted of 750, 2200 and 2250 people in the UK.

On the contrary, all three are large samples and statistically significant. Taken together, over 5,000 people being interviewed is an extremely large sample.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
Probably took an afternoon to gather those responses.

I understand that you do not like the results of the three separate surveys which show that 2 out of 3 British people support banning the burqa.

Nonetheless, it is no reason for people to prefer your opinion, the opinion of 1 person, as being more representative of the British opinion on the burqa than the opinions of 5,000 people.

edit on 15-3-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

No, those were 3 separate polls, you can't just add them together and say 5000, there's no data about when or where they were held, its entirely possible that some of the same people were polled multiple times.
You have to be very careful with such small samples as you can get wildly skewed results depending on the places and times of day you survey people.

It's a bit like those narky "80% of Muslims want Sharia law" ones that crop up from time to time. Done outside Finsbury park and such places.

We should be striving hard for more freedom and less regulation of our lives, not the other way round.

I can show you hundreds of people that really don't give a sh1t what some Muslim woman wears, cos its of no importance to them, but then they have lives and aren't what we brits call busy bodies who seem to thrive on being a pain in someone else's life.

reply to post by SprocketUK


You know when bad things happen to us, we look for ways to prevent them from happening again. Bad things happen when people hide their identity. Granite not every time some one hides their identity they are being bad. Its not about taking peoples freedoms away, although you may see it that way. Governments job is to come in and regulate and govern and control. Its right in the name. If I say the government should come in and do this, everybody freaks out and says "Oh no not more government". But see you've taken it out of context. I want more government here, but way less over there.

Originally posted by Night Star
Yes, ban the damned things! Ever smell one of those women in the swealtering heat of summer? It's disgusting and certainly unhealthy.

Shall I assume from your avatar that you are woman? I don't care about the burqa and think it is uncomfortable and alienating but I know it is not my business what a woman I do not know chooses to wear.

So far on this thread I have read everything there is that justifies the banning of the burqa. It is everything from terrorism, to hiding bombs to not being able to identify an individual. The irony is that most of you object to cctv covering the streets because of your rights to privacy yet you turn around and want to dictate to ethnic women what they should or shouldn't wear.

Now you come out with something new; that these women stink under their burqa as another reason why their dress should be banned. American soldiers in Iraq had no problems raping some burqa wearing Iraqi women.

As a woman you want to dictate to ethnic women what they should wear.

As a woman, your men folk in the military kill and rape them and destroy their countries then you quibble about how they smell.

Originally posted by andersensrm

When I get a drivers license I have to get a photo ID, when I go to vote, I should have to present this ID, when I walk into a building I do so without covering my face in a mask. She can still choose to cover her face, just not during the photo ID picture, not when she's inside a bank, not when she's entering a government office, not when shes in jail, not when shes voting. You don't like it, no one is forcing you to stay here.

These rules are already laws in some states for the general population as a means of security. People must remove hats sunglasses etc, This increases the possibility of the service providers being able to give an accurate description if the person entering does violate the law. It is also sometimes easier to for the service provider notice by facial expressions whether there is cause for concern, which could give them a seconds to prepare to respond which they would not have otherwise.

Additions: while driving and through transportation check points.

Originally posted by MI5edtoDeath

Originally posted by Night Star
Yes, ban the damned things! Ever smell one of those women in the swealtering heat of summer? It's disgusting and certainly unhealthy.

Shall I assume from your avatar that you are woman? I do care about the burqa and think it is uncomfortable and alienating but I know it is not my business what a woman i do not know chooses to wear.

So far on this thread I have read everything there is that justifies the banning of the burqa. It is everything from terrorism, to hiding bombs to not being able to identify an individual. The irony is that most of you object to cctv covering the streets because of your rights to privacy yet you turn around and want to dictate to ethnic women what they should or shouldn't wear.

Now you come out with something new; that these women stink under their burqa as another reason why their dress should be banned. American soldiers in Iraq had no problems raping some burqa wearing Iraqi women.

As a woman you want to dictate to ethnic women what they should wear.

As a woman, your men folk in the military kill and rape them and destroy their country then you quibble about how they smell.

Your right lets just go crazy and dump all the laws who needs them anyways. Lets just let people do whatever they want, everything will work out won't it?

Originally posted by ollncasino
The burqa is a non issue to you but the majority of European people disagree with you.

I don't know whether it's just me, but the image you posted isn't showing up. Anyway, that's by the by, unless it was something relevant to your above point.

Who says that the ''majority of Europeans'' disagree that the burqa is a non-issue ? What a bizarre statement.

But, at least, we are getting to the crux of the matter; you apparently feel threatened and fearful of an alien (and I use that word reluctantly on this site ) cultural garb.

OK. Fair enough. Whatever floats your boat. But please don't peddle this nonsense about the burqa being a security problem, when anything which obscures someone's face (scarf, hooded top, sunglasses, etc.) also fall into this category.

If you were genuinely worried about a terrorist legally concealing their identity in day-to-day life, then you would have authored a thread calling for a ban on all facial coverings in public.

However, as you have singled out the burqa, your agenda is pretty transparent.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Very good point. I wish I could be as concise as you.

It's funny how people selling their ugly agendas dress it all up as other concerns.

Here is an interesting article;

Statistics on the number of women who wear the niqab in Britain are difficult to verify. Belgium has reportedly recorded 215 burka wearers and France estimates the number at anywhere between 367 and 2,000 of its five million Muslims. But, anecdotally, the burka on the streets of London has become more common. Knightsbridge is home to plenty of wealthy Arab women who wear the veil in public, while in pockets of east London, some Muslim women work and travel almost unnoticed in niqabs. But does that really mean the city is becoming more "radicalised"?
www.thisislondon.co.uk... style/beyond-the-veil-londons-burka-wearers-go-on-the-defensive-6532864.html

Most burqa wearers in London are wealthy Middle Eastern residents in the most expensive parts of London and most are royalty who are given vip treatment at airports so security is not an issue.

The reality, wearing the burqa is not an Islamic requirement and it is worn as a cultural dress code.

In countries like France and the Netherlands, things seen as Islamic is attacked equally by politicians and bigots. Consequently, mosques are banned along with other religious artifacts. There is little freedom of religion in some parts of Europe if you are brown and Muslim.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Sunglasses, hats, scarves, beards, all OBSCURE the face your right.

Burqas, and masks HIDE the face completely.

Come on dude it has nothing to do with what other people are wearing, I care less. But when I'm held to a certain standard, I expect everyone else to be held to that standard regardless of race, religion, or culture. Wear the burqa or mask or whatever you want, but when you enter a public forum you have to abide by societal rules. You can't just go walking around naked because that is in your culture/religion. What if a bushman came here, and all he had was a small cloth covering for his groin area. Just because we have policies set up in place to make sure people are wearing clothing that covers the body : shirt, pants, shoes, does not mean we are destroying liberties. People need to stop acting like children and deal with it.

Originally posted by andersensrm
Sunglasses, hats, scarves, beards, all OBSCURE the face your right.

Burqas, and masks HIDE the face completely.

Scarves pulled up over the bridge of the nose - accompanied by a hood - hide every part of the face that the burqa does. eg. everything but the eyes.

There is no law against wearing scarves and hoods, so why should there be a law against the burqa or niqab ?

Originally posted by andersensrm
Come on dude it has nothing to do with what other people are wearing, I care less. But when I'm held to a certain standard, I expect everyone else to be held to that standard regardless of race, religion, or culture.

There is no different standard in which you are held. You can wear a burqa, toga or bin-bag for all the law cares. No-one's stopping you.

Originally posted by andersensrm
Wear the burqa or mask or whatever you want, but when you enter a public forum you have to abide by societal rules.

As I've previously stated, I think that women who wear the burqa should get no special dispensation because of it.

If anybody is required to show their face in a particular situation, then everyone should have to, regardless of their culture or religion.

Originally posted by andersensrm
You can't just go walking around naked because that is in your culture/religion.

What if a bushman came here, and all he had was a small cloth covering for his groin area. Just because we have policies set up in place to make sure people are wearing clothing that covers the body : shirt, pants, shoes, does not mean we are destroying liberties.

You can't go about naked because there are laws which prohibit it. However, there are no laws which require you to expose your face in public.

You said it yourself: ''Just because we have policies set up in place to make sure people are wearing clothing that covers the body : shirt, pants, shoes, does not mean we are destroying liberties.''

The burqa covers the body parts which are expected to be covered in mainstream Western society, so I can't see what the problem is here.

Originally posted by andersensrm
People need to stop acting like children and deal with it.

I wholeheartedly concur.

Originally posted by ecdude
This is one of the most ignorant posts that i have ever seen on this site. You should be ashamed to post this being a member of this site. Making it a law that you cannot wear a burqa in public is the equivilent to saying an othrodox Jewish man could not wear the braids, or that the Amish are required to wear "normal" western clothes. This isn't some thing that they wear just to wear it, its something that the wear for religious reasons. I am not a religious person but i believe that each person has their eight to practice their religion and if that meanw that a woman wears a burqa so be it and who are you to say she can't

None of your examples hide the wearer's identity, so your point is mute. Plus, the burqa is not a religious item, but a middle eastern item, it has no ties to religion, so your point is mute again.

Originally posted by MI5edtoDeath

Originally posted by Rukas
If I cant walk into a bank, through airport security, or even down the street in a balaclava, then they shouldn't be allowed to wear the burqua.

Because burqas are cultural-religious dress while one wears a balaclava because it is very cold or there is an intent to commit a crime.

The burqa is not a religious dress, it is a culturally oppressive dress.

If I forced my girlfriend into wearing a balaclava to hide her identity, she'd be stopped everywhere she went. If someone wore any other cultural mask, and believe me there are many, into banks or airports, they wouldnt be let in.

This post sums it up:

Originally posted by Morgenstern89
If you live in a cold area where ski masks are worn all the time, when someone enters a building in order to conduct daily errands or business, the face mask usually comes up. It's common courtesy, and a cultural norm, allowing people you interact with to see your face.

This, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with their religion, it has to do with their culture. I respect other peoples religions (so long as their beliefs and behavior are harmless), but I have zero tolerance for a culture in which women are forced into being subservient, and the facial coverings of their culture are the embodiment of that. You adapt to society, society doesn't adapt to you. And in a world where pretty much everywhere on the planet, people show their face, you can't expect people to get used to it.

Really, it's no skin off my back if they keep wearing them, but really, it's just perpetuating the negative aspects of their culture. I mean really, her "right to wear it?" Is that what we should be fighting for here? Fighting to keep her within the confines of her culture/religion/marriage? Don't get me wrong, western women get crapped on still, but they have the independence to leave or change their situation, it's nothing like how these women are treated.

reply to post by MI5edtoDeath


Yes. there are very few women who wear burqas and niqabs throughout Europe. I live and work in a multicultural city in England, and I've probably only noticed about 3-5 women in full face veil over the last decade.

One of the big problems is that most people don't understand cultural relativism; people are generally comfortable when they dress and act in a way that they have been brought up with.

Whilst a woman choosing to cover up her face may seem unusual to some, it is no different to Westerners feeling extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed if we didn't have our ''privates'' covered in public.

Originally posted by Rukas
The burqa is not a religious dress, it is a culturally oppressive dress.

Just like the ''culturally oppressive'' dresses that women have to wear in the West, covering up their breasts.

What's the difference ?

Look at a culture like that of the Amish. They are very private, they dress very conservatively, and it is viewed as "strange" by a lot of people. Similar to how many westerners feel about those who wear a burqua. Yet people don't give them grief over it. Why? Because they still share the same basic cultural norms that the rest of the world has. The face is the window to the person. Facial expressions have a lot to do with our interaction with one another, and when those are hidden it sends up all sorts of red flags in our minds. And on top of that, the men dress conservatively too. It's not like they are out cruising around in a Prius or are indoors playing Wii on their plasma TV, they all share that super conservative lifestyle. Male and female are recognized as people. From the outside looking in, the women who are forced to wear a burqua are barely viewed as people by the men in their culture.

I also question whether they feel -comfortable- wearing the burqua or if it's just some kind of traumatic bonding. If you were forced to wear something long enough, and knew the terrible consequences of not wearing it, I imagine anyone would feel uncomfortable without it. I don't see how or why anyone would want to preserve that part of their culture. It's terrible. "Hey honey, you almost walked out the door without your featureless black body sack. We wouldn't want anyone mistaking you for a real person now, would we?"