STS-48: Debunking Kasher's Five "It-Can't-Be-Ice" Proofs

Originally posted by JimOberg
snip

Buzz E. Miller (real name Martyn Stubbs)

Isn't there some 'terms of service' taboo on masquerading as an alias?

What kind of a question is that?

With the exception of you and a few others, we are all in "violation of the tos". Are you implying that the avatars used by members are also "violations of the tos" because no one is using a real photo? Can you say "ice crystal"?

I hope that last one brought a guffaw out of you.

Originally posted by dejarmaX

Originally posted by martynNASAman
This renewed attack on the STS 48 footage is going to be re hashed on the TV show you are promoting. I have worked with Discovery LLC......but the program is called UFOs-or NO. So I can not know if it is the same show as you were told it was... but I'm sure it will be full of the usual B.S.

but just showing those clips will be good enough as most people tune out the Oberg/skeptic crap anyway!

After all this time people are still capitalizing on this footage!?!? Yeah great, why not!! The gullible will always keep the few laughing all the way to the bank-- bless em.... How long did it take for the gullible to finally realize the: 'alien autopsy' footage was a fake created to earn money for those involved!?!? Oh to live in a fantasy world--- it must be bliss!

You mean you don't recognize your blissful mental state that you seem to share with a well-known ex-NASA man 'cause your nose is shade of real deep brown and you can't see past it!

I'll bet that if it wasn't for good, ol' J.O. you'd be lost in your own bliss miasma for all you do is hide behind J.O. Do you have any original thoughts on the STS-48 footage without parroting? Are you sure that the "alien autopsy" footage was fake or just a case of disinfo?

Whether or not what is seen here is Ice or Alien Probes or some form of Low Orbital Life...is not so much this issue as the real issue is that NASA does brief all Astronauts that they are probably going to see something up there...something that is not us.

The Older Astronauts are coming forward now that they are at a point in age that they feel they have nothing to loose...which is not true because there is ALWAYS something to loose. But they are coming out. And they have seen things that most people would rather not know about. Split Infinity

Originally posted by buzzEmiller
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You are not alone...The tether incident not ice & UFO Hunters is pathetic. And if the tether UFOs are so obviously nothing at all...then why are so many people making new TV shows to examine &/or debunk it along with the other NASA videos.

Simple really, people like you will watch they can get revenue from ads ,they can then sell a dvd people like you will by that ,then the book , then the t-shirt and after a year or so they will claim new evidence to bring out part 2 which people lke you will watch................etc etc.

reply to post by martynNASAman


Well if you are who you claim to be can you get info on the lens on the camera or full camera specs.

Info like depth of field etc would be useful.

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by martynNASAman

 

Well if you are who you claim to be can you get info on the lens on the camera or full camera specs.

Info like depth of field etc would be useful.

OK...many space flights have more than video cameras alone. NASA also used cameras & special films that could see into the invisible range of light energy better than video cameras.

NASA used video cameras for STS missions. The first mission to use a color CCD camera, instead of the usual 'video' cameras...(cameras that used tubes & not ccds) was STS-61. All missions from then until (& including) STS-80 used both types of cameras. The download was live...analogue (thus no compressed video, piggybacked on the live signal). On specific missions other "special" video cameras were used.

For example...on the STS-75 (Tether Incident) mission, The Tether Optical Phenomena (TOP) equipment was used as well as the usual cameras. This was an experiment conducted by Lockheed Martin using a camera system with image intensifiers & special filters.

TOP had many advantages to similar cameras made on previous flights because it allowed real-time observations of the images seen by the shuttle crew. TOP scientific team members viewed live video images & sent voice commands to change the filters & exposure settings for better viewing.

RE: your 2nd question..

.. on the STS-75 mission, the tether & satellite, by the way...were being observed by the "TOP" camera... to examine the high voltage sheath of electrically charged ("ionized") gas that surrounded them as they flew through the Earth's ionosphere, giving the thin tether a "glow" (that made it so visible from 100 nautical miles)

There is also luminescence produced by the "electron beams" & interaction of the electrically charged satellite. NASA's "electron beams" (electrons are invisible to the human eye & they are chaotic. spinning around their nucleus..protons)...must be energy moving along the tether.

The tether was producing electricity ..before & after the break. Distorted or "stray light" had no impact on depth of field. The NASA video camera was focused on infinity, thus nothing could have been out of focus.

I think Martyn is quite correct re the TOPS camera on STS-75, but
what the heck does it have to do with the theme of this thread?

Jim...you want some facts from me...a teaching moment..!!..OK...re: communications..here goes..

Communications between NASA. the DOD & payloads are made on several different radio frequencies. Communication with an attached payload takes place through the payload patch panel at the crew compartment flight dock aft station,which is connected to external equipment with internal systems.

All standard command & telemetry signals are processed on board. Non-standard signals are sent to the ground via the Ku-band. This system is the method for video transmission used by the missions we have been discussing..from STS-48 to STS-80!

The Ku-band delivered the still amazing 1991 STS-48 UFO incident to the world & all of my 'complete mission', live recordings (full of UFOs) up to & including the STS-80 mission.(in analogue)

I have the NASA manual & you should to..so no need to go on about this..

One more thing..you insist on breaking ATS rules using your real name..& dissing others for using super cool Avatars..names etc..
Jim..that is the whole fun about this site ..it is why ATS works for so many members!

All you do is host threads... like this, setting yourself up as the so called "expert"...dishing out tons of your 80 years of skeptical nonsense..all the while embedding link after link to your own "official" skeptical site. Mention it but don't embed it. I have never embedded any link to my site..I just mention my sites availability..& you should do the same with yours.

Jim..make your points here.. Go & register as someone or something else & join in on our conversations..like the rest of us at ATS... & even this current ID (you forced me to use "martyn" by attacking member buzzEmiller as Martyn Stubbs) will only jump in if you keep posting these personal threads. Otherwise I am out of here as this Avatar/name. And you should too...shame on you Jim.

Why mess with the ATS 'spirit" of ideas being shared...

by coming on as a named "expert". ATS hosts experts all the time & you should go that route...follow the method that ATS has provided for you to be "Mr. Jim O"....famous whatever..

I can say with absolute certainty that there are no....EXPERTS...in this field of study being discussed here on this board. I know but the bare minimum about a few things...which I wish I didn't....and I cannot claim to be an EXPERT in this field.

The reality is that the issues involving E.T. are so compartmentalized....and designed to be so...that no one individual besides a couple of former U.S. Presidents...Bush Sr. and Ike....had the whole picture and I would think that Bush Sr...being the former head of the CIA...would have had an even greater understanding of the issue than Ike Himself...the Man who established the Agency that deals with all that is E.T.

Even J. Edgar Hoover....former FBI director...was shut out of the information...and that was a man of Extreme Power and Influence. Split Infinity

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Originally posted by buzzEmiller
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You are not alone...The tether incident not ice & UFO Hunters is pathetic. And if the tether UFOs are so obviously nothing at all...then why are so many people making new TV shows to examine &/or debunk it along with the other NASA videos.

Simple really, people like you will watch they can get revenue from ads ,they can then sell a dvd people like you will by that ,then the book , then the t-shirt and after a year or so they will claim new evidence to bring out part 2 which people lke you will watch................etc etc.

I don't know about buzzEmiller but I don't buy the products advertised during the showing on TV, I don't buy the DVD 'cause I just saw and recorded the show, I don't buy books 'cause I know that they are full of feces as was the show, and when they bring out new evidence and produce part 2 I may watch it but that is as far as it will go except for talking about it here as you are doing.

Originally posted by JimOberg
I think Martyn is quite correct re the TOPS camera on STS-75, but
what the heck does it have to do with the theme of this thread?

While you are correct that there is straying from the theme of the thread, there is a connection in that some claim that what is seen in the STS-48 footage are ice crystals, the same claim is being made for STS-75.

Of course, when one studies the behavior of ice crystals when they are really shown, nothing in either video (STS-48 & STS-75) matches their behavior and the ice crystal explanations just miss the mark, for some of us.

Maybe we need to make smaller steps in the development of this argument. My "99 FAQs" is a big dump into the ufological culture, and Shrike, there were specific responses in it to precise issues you have continued to raise as if they were not in dispute -- so I wish you especially would read throught it again, identify specifics you want to contest, and focus on them.

Perhaps the place to start is the nature of the space around a shuttle during the recording of such videos -- specifically, where it is full of sunlight, and where it is 'dark' [shadowed]. Getting that established can lead to some eureka moments of realization of WHY some of these images look as bizarre as they do.

On STS-48, can we agree that it's a minute or two after orbital sunrise, the camera is pointed 'down sun', and a region in front of the camera is still in the shadow cast by the shuttle itself. OK?

Originally posted by JimOberg
Maybe we need to make smaller steps in the development of this argument. My "99 FAQs" is a big dump into the ufological culture, and Shrike, there were specific responses in it to precise issues you have continued to raise as if they were not in dispute -- so I wish you especially would read throught it again, identify specifics you want to contest, and focus on them.

Perhaps the place to start is the nature of the space around a shuttle during the recording of such videos -- specifically, where it is full of sunlight, and where it is 'dark' [shadowed]. Getting that established can lead to some eureka moments of realization of WHY some of these images look as bizarre as they do.

On STS-48, can we agree that it's a minute or two after orbital sunrise, the camera is pointed 'down sun', and a region in front of the camera is still in the shadow cast by the shuttle itself. OK?

Prior to adding this reply I went back to the OP and read Kasher's "proofs" and the "disproofs". Frankly, it all went over my head. I'm not concerned with Kasher's "proofs" because what he wants to prove doesn't affect my take on what I see in the video. After reading Kasher's arguments and yours and Sainio's comments I went to YouTube and saw the "full" STS-48 video and I'm sticking to my guns even if I'm wrong in your eyes. It might be frustrating for you not to be able to reach me, a brilliant mind, for if you can't reach the intelligent then you don't stand a chance with the less intelligent.

There is so much going on in those few minutes that are beyond explanations of ice crystalls, shuttle debris, thruster firing, etc. I cannot be talked off my view that the camera doing the recording is on a wide angle view encompassing a vast visual field. In that field we see part of the earth. If the camera was on telephoto we'd see less of the earth's curvature. There are various white objects that are not out focus 'cause they're distant. There's a wide variety of activity connected with the white objects. Some are still, some are drifting slowly in various directions. Some appear and disappear after drifting for a while. Then the main "actor" appears and after drifting for a while makes a sudden right angle turn after a flash is seen. From the earth a "ray of light" is seen intercepting the same area the right-angler was at with another one following shortly but it looks more like a "SUFO" speeding. At the bottom right a similar scene happens. None of the drifting white objects and none of the still ones are affected. After a while a triangular object or 3 objects close together appear from the bottom left and drift. Etc., etc.

None of the white objects are out of focus because they're close to the shuttle; they're distant. None of the white objects look like nor behave like ice crystals. Ice crystals detach from the shuttle haphazardly and don't drift slowly, don't come to a standstill, don't go in different directions, etc.

What I see in the STS-48 and by the same token STS-75 are ice crystals, shuttle debris, etc. I am not sold on your explanations, I am not sold on Sainio's, I don't care what Kasher says. I know what I see and my interpretation may be erroneous in your eyes but it's what in my eyes that matter. Consider me a lost soul.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Shrike, can we approach this dispute in small steps?

Are you satisifed that there is, indeed, a dawn shadow zone down-sun of spacecraft, inside of which any small spacecraft-generated dandruff would be invisible until it drifts out of the shadow and into sunlight?

Is such a concept within the range of your belief system?

What I envision has nothing to do with a belief system because I do not have a belief system. I either know or don't know. Regarding what one sees in the footage I don't know, I'm assuming based on many points that my eyes feed my brain. I'm not seeing anything nearby. Spacecraft generated "dandruff" does not behave as one sees. I wish I could help you see that but we are both failing in the convincing department. What keeps me going with my assumptions is that we are both earthbound and we are exposed to the same scene.

Can anyone else contribute to this impasse? Can they address the question of illumination in the vicinity of the shuttle, without fear or prejudice?

I've just found another shuttle video, where (at least) an object suddenly accelerate and change direction...very very similarly with STS48 object in discussion here.

The object is moving very slowly (and pulsate), then a flash occurs, and object accelerate tremendous in another direction out of the frame. Exactly like in our STS-48 example.

The object is in upper part of the frame, almost stationary...in fact moving very slowly and pulsating. Then suddenly...ziiip!

The videoclip is here (sorry about low quality):






How about this?





p.s. the movie is in normal speed, as recorded by the shuttle camera.

reply to post by depthoffield
If NASA & the authorities know these are intelligently controlled craft & want to keep this from us (as the conspiracy theories suggest), then why do they allow everyone to see them? I'm confused..

Peace.

dej...

Originally posted by mcrom901
sts 49 video full sequence

Thanks. this will help, along with data sheets from Mission Control describing shuttle events.

www.youtube.com...
youtube time tag

2:27 crew comment ‘We’re coming up on sunrise’.

7:30 white haze appears signifying forward-scattered sunlight into PLB
7:45 moving dots appear
8:41 ‘main object’ appears upper center moving to left
8:55 flare in left of screen; main object and some others change direction


Calculated:
Orbital sunrise: 20:38:02 GMT

Sts-48 scene list
www.jamesoberg.com...
20:30:09 to 20:40:58 Camera C – Dark Earth limb with lightning visible over Chnia and the Bay
of Bengal. Continue over Burma, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

STS-48 RCS history telemetry jet L5D
www.jamesoberg.com...
258:20:39:24 [1.2 seconds] firing -- coincides with flash and particles change in motion

DAP [Digital Autopilot] Errors, IMU [Inertial Measurement Unit] Rates, Rate Errors
www.jamesoberg.com...
Top box: Roll, Pitch, Yaw
Center box: Roll rate, Pitch rate, Yaw rate
Bottom Box: Roll rate error, Pitch rate error, Yaw rate error
Bottom scale is time,
258:20:39:00 to 258:20:39:30 has 6 hash marks hence 5 sec/mark,
so time of thruster firing is just short of 5th [of 6] marks in that interval
Read off the center box how pitch rate drops near to zero at precisely that moment.
Read off the top box how pitch angle reaches 1 degree [the allowable deadband]
at precisely that moment, and stops there [because a corrective thruster was fired]

Discussion at www.jamesoberg.com...

STS-48 crew timeline
www.jamesoberg.com...