Revelation Tricks You into Not Thinking it is Itself Babylon by Pointing to an Imaginary Babylon

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Example; Gabriel gave Daniel the exact date the Messiah would present Himself to Israel. And most people missed his coming.

The "exact" date depends on how you interpret other verses.

If Gabriel gave te exact date, then I demand you tell me what it is?

Can you state it by day, month and year???

Absolutely, 10th of Nisan, 32 AD.

Here.

Now if you go to the gospels, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and pronounces spiritual blindness on Israel because they "did not know the day of thy visitation". Christ held them responsible for not knowing the exact day of His arrival.

God doesn't deal in approximations.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

jmdewey60 should keep in mind that fresh, original ideas for doctoral dissertations were exhausted many, many years ago. To come up with something, an aspiring Doctor of Theology must go far afield, perhaps too far afield.

Further, ideas are not necessarily true because they appear in a dissertation, or a well-printed book with an index, bibliography, footnotes, and an introduction by a famous scholar.

I suspect our OP is smarting from the last Babylon thread.

The timing of this thread comes from my getting a package in the mail on Monday (2 days ago) with two books in it.
The book I am basing this thread on was published over a hundred years ago but just recently published in an English translation. The author is considered one of the greatest geniuses in Old Testament studies and was a professor who basically invented form criticism as used today in the study of the Bible. (the literary criticism term "Sitz im Leben" comes from him)
Being a doctoral dissertation, then this was obviously written at what was the beginning of what turned out to be a distinguished career in academics, and he is recognized to this day for his contribution to understanding the Bible.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
...he is recognized to this day for his contribution to understanding the Bible.

edit on 14-3-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

If you are speaking of Gunkel, some would say "...his contribution to MISunderstnading the Bible." I, for one, have no use for the Higher Critics, German or otherwise.

reply to post by Lazarus Short
It's hard for me to imagine what you read if you take out the critics.
Just devotionals?
'Have a good time with that' is all I can think.
Maybe I am too addicted to reality to go into delusional world.
You periodically hear the announcement of the death of form criticism but it is just a necessary thing that every decent biblical scholar makes use of, whether they claim they do or not.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

If you are speaking of Gunkel, some would say "...his contribution to MISunderstnading the Bible." I, for one, have no use for the Higher Critics, German or otherwise.

I found a quote for you from Gunkel:

A child, indeed, unable to distinguish between reality and poetry, loses something when it is told that its dearest stories are "not true." But the modern theologian should be further developed. The evangelical churches and their chosen representatives would do well not to dispute the fact that Genesis contains legends--as has been done too frequently--but to recognise that the knowledge of this fact is the indispensable condition to an historical understanding of Genesis. This knowledge is already too widely diffused among those trained in historical study ever again to be suppressed. It will surely spread among the masses of our people, for the process is irresistible. Shall not we Evangelicals take care that it be presented to them in the right spirit?
ppg 11,12
The Legends of Genesis: THE BIBLICAL SAGA AND HISTORY, By HERMANN GUNKEL

NOTICE OF ATTRIBUTION
Scanned at sacred-texts.com, November 2004. John Bruno Hare, redactor. This text is in the public domain in the United States. These files may be used for any non-commercial purpose provided this notice of attribution is left intact.

reply to post by pthena

I found a quote for you from Gunkel:

Great link.
Not so technical as what a dissertation would be, so very readable and amazingly so considering how long ago it was written. That is how you can tell greatness, and he is not just reiterating something handed down to him but is telling of what he was the pioneer of, this sort of way of looking at the Bible that is followed exactly now.
Not the sort of reading that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy but you take that in and understand it, and when you read the Bible, you can appreciate it for what it is instead of just tossing it out in exasperation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What about the dates regarding other prophetic events such as the 2nd coming of Jesus? or the arrival of the anti-christ? Does the bible have specific dates on those events?

No.

So which is why people are still interpreting prophetic texts to figure out the "when", "who" and "what" questions about prophecy. You can't deny that there IS a lot of speculation and guesswork involved.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

What about the dates regarding other prophetic events such as the 2nd coming of Jesus?

Yessir, I can.

3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1,260 days from the "Abomination that Causeth Desolations". Jesus said that will be when the man of sin sits in the temple and declares that he is god, and the whole world who isn't sealed by God will fall for it.

Jesus did everything but tell us the hours and minutes of His 2nd coming.

or the arrival of the antichrist? Does the Bible have specific dates on those events?

I'm unaware of one for the ac, perhaps someone else is?? He cannot be revealed to the world until the harpazo. And the date for that is hidden, it's not given anywhere in the scriptures. People get made fools for setting a date for that event. Christ said no one knows that date except His Father. (Because, like an ancient Hebrew wedding ceremony, the son doesn't go pick up his betrothed until the father gave the okay. Usually after appropriate accommodations have been built at the father's house of the marriage couple.

You can't deny that there IS a lot of speculation and guesswork involved.

Of course not, I don't deny that!! (Harold Camping)

But, as an example, do you remember when the world was going abuzz about this rapture nonsense from Mr. Camping that many of us were saying things like: "You can guarantee Christ won't return for the harpazo when Camping says he will. Jesus said "No man" will know that day or hour."

The details are always available in the scriptures for the diligent student.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Azadok

 

It's obvious you are catholic braise you profess to believe in God but do not believe in the letter he sent to you the bible. Trust in your pope to lead you to your master , the son of perdition.

Cursed is the man who puts his faith in man.

Martin Luther, in his translation of the Bible, placed Revelation in the appendix.
He said, "About this book of the Revelation of John...I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it."

I find it quite hypocritical of any and all Christians that say they believe in Jesus as the son of God, Yet have no faith that God would provide us all we need to protected against Satans fiery darts in these end times . We have had the King James Bible since 1611 , DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE that God would not make sure. The most important document in the world to His children is not exactly what you need to protect against those fiery darts .

People make a big hard deal about revelation when God himself explains most of it . Revelation means the unvaling , no big secret . This book and all books are exactly what God intended for you when He watched over the making of the KJV bible , it s that simple if you have faith which obviously you lack in God and place in man for which you are accursed

reply to post by Azadok

. . . it s that simple if you have faith which obviously you lack in God and place in man for which you are accursed

Tragic how you can not see the irony in your post.
KJV Bible was made by men.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Azadok

 

. . . it s that simple if you have faith which obviously you lack in God and place in man for which you are accursed

Tragic how you can not see the irony in your post.
KJV Bible was made by men.

What's tragic is your lack of faith in God , my post was quite clear and the bible is also quite clear that ALL scripture is given to man by God.

reply to post by pthena


Well, unlike some here, I take the book of Genesis as history (His Story). What Gunkel and nearly everyone else has missed is this: If history unfolded just as Genesis relates and my extensive studies inform me that it did, then we would expect, very reasonably expect, the story to be handed down orally, to become garbled and inaccurate. After the Babel incident, the old tales began to turn up in different languages, different nations. Centuries later, scholars who wanted a reason NOT to believe, or at least, wanted a novel idea for their doctoral dissertations, found these legends and ran with them - "Look at this! The Bible is based on pagan legend!!" The cart is before the horse, however.

Gunkel and his ilk [just love that word - "ilk"] have constructed an impressive theological (theoillogical?) construct, but it is based on a flawed, a seriously flawed premise.

Originally posted by Azadok

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Azadok

 

. . . it s that simple if you have faith which obviously you lack in God and place in man for which you are accursed

Tragic how you can not see the irony in your post.
KJV Bible was made by men.

What's tragic is your lack of faith in God , my post was quite clear and the bible is also quite clear that ALL scripture is given to man by God.

He rejects that book as non-inspired. Go find another verse to bring to him.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by pthena

 

Well, unlike some here, I take the book of Genesis as history (His Story). What Gunkel and nearly everyone else has missed is this: If history unfolded just as Genesis relates and my extensive studies inform me that it did, then we would expect, very reasonably expect, the story to be handed down orally, to become garbled and inaccurate. After the Babel incident, the old tales began to turn up in different languages, different nations. Centuries later, scholars who wanted a reason NOT to believe, or at least, wanted a novel idea for their doctoral dissertations, found these legends and ran with them - "Look at this! The Bible is based on pagan legend!!" The cart is before the horse, however.

Gunkel and his ilk [just love that word - "ilk"] have constructed an impressive theological (theoillogical?) construct, but it is based on a flawed, a seriously flawed premise.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why people who say they are Christians listen to the opinions of people who are NOT believers as to what the scriptures say. That's absolutely absurd. People who are spiritually discerned cannot understand the things of the Spirit, including the Word He inspired to be written.

1 Corinthians 2:14 ~ "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Go back a little from that verse to see what the context is.

“No eye has seen, . . .
-
. . . but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

Nothing in here about reading books, or anything else you can look at.

. . . the opinions of people who are NOT believers . . .

You have had a couple months to come up with a name of one of these hypothetical atheists who write books for believers about the Bible, so this is just your dishonest rhetoric. My question would be why people who claim to be Christians make such bold lies as slander, in the spirit of Satan?

reply to post by jmdewey60

TextYou have had a couple months to come up with a name of one of these hypothetical atheists who write books for believers about the Bible, so this is just your dishonest rhetoric. My question would be why people who claim to be Christians make such bold lies as slander, in the spirit of Satan? edit on 15-3-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

There are many who claim they are Christians but are they are not , twisting scripture ever so slightly to tickle the ears of man sounding holy but in reality evil and of Satan.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

For the life of me I cannot figure out why people who say they are Christians listen to the opinions of people who are NOT believers as to what the scriptures say. That's absolutely absurd.

It's called dialog.

In a free and open society, of which my country claims to be, open discussion should be encouraged rather than discouraged. The Bible, as a collection of myth, legend, poetry, some history, and purported oracles, is a quite public document. Anybody can read it. Anybody can have thoughts and opinions about its varied content.

Should certain people be forbidden from discussion, based upon their changing beliefs and worldviews? If so, then there would be little conversion activity. Should those who have one worldview forbid themselves from talking to those of another worldview? Then we would all be split up into cults and sects with no community.

If one literalist worldview prevails to the exclusion of all others, especially when a major tenet is the soon and necessary destruction of the world in blood and fire, then aren't we all put in an existential threat of annihilation? It's self defense then to persuade away from such notions.

Listen to Jesus:

18 He said to them, "“Are you thus without understanding also? Don’t you perceive that whatever goes into the man from outside can’t defile him, 19 because it doesn’t go into his heart, but into his stomach, then into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?”" 20 He said, "“That which proceeds out of the man, that defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders, thefts, 22 covetings, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”"
- - Mark 7, WEB

You, as a reader or listener, are not defiled by what I say or write. It is only what you say or write that can defile you. Fear not.

21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
- - 1Cor. 3 , WEB

See? I am part of the world. Your God has given me to you, including my thoughts and opinions. Use them wisely.

reply to post by pthena

In a free and open society, of which my country claims to be, open discussion should be encouraged rather than discouraged. The Bible, as a collection of myth, legend, poetry, some history, and purported oracles, is a quite public document. Anybody can read it. Anybody can have thoughts and opinions about its varied content.

You're absolutely correct sir, and I've denied NONE of that. Anyone can pick up a Bible and read it, anyone can form thoughts and opinions on it, but that's not what I said. I asked why Christians are turning to the "Spiritually discerned" to understand the book written by the Holy Spirit? When that same Holy Spirit said: "Hey don't listen to the lost folks in regards to scripture, they can't understand it anyways, they are spiritually discerned."

Please try and address what I actually say in future contacts, this is a rampant problem in these forums. I never said anybody cannot read the Bible and form their own opinions and thoughts about it and what it says. I certainly don't deny that, in fact, THAT is the problem!!!

You, as a reader or listener, are not defiled by what I say or write.

I never once considered myself defiled by what you said or wrote, perhaps you were thinking of another member, I dunno?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Nothing in here about reading books, or anything else you can look at.

Ahh yes of course. Since the Bible doesn't specifically say "the Bible" then it obviously wasn't talking about the Bible right? It says: "the things of the Spirit of God".

That would include the scripture He inspired men to write.

by your logic I can smoke crack while having a threesome with a guy and a whore correct? I mean the Bible doesn't explicitly say: "You cannot smoke crack while having a threesome with a dude and a chick."

Come on, use the grey squishy matter between your ears that God gave you.

You have had a couple months to come up with a name of one of these hypothetical atheists who write books for believers about the Bible, so this is just your dishonest rhetoric.

What are you talking about? What books written by atheists to believers about the Bible? I didn't say that, are you thinking of someone else?

reply to post by jmdewey60

My question would be why people who claim to be Christians make such bold lies as slander, in the spirit of Satan?

You know what jm, that thinly-veiled insult is kinda hilarious to me coming from you. You were the one last year that edited my post you were replying to in a blatantly deceptive way to make it appear I said the exact opposite of what I said. In all my years of doing apologetics I've never once encountered a person, (besides you), who would do that just to try and win an argument. Especially an argument in front of anonymous strangers neither of us know in the real world.

Even if I gather nothing of substance from your posts, I can always find comfort in knowing you'll provide the comedic relief, even if unaware.