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I would say no, but it really would be up to the individual. In most religious dogma that believes in an entity called Satan, that entity is subservient to God. There may be some fringe group somewhere that believes that Satan created the Universe, but Masonry requires a belief in God as the Creator. So worshiping a fallen angel won't cut it.
Originally posted by interupt42
According to some other Mason on this thread there appears to be a loop hole that would allow for Satanic members to join but not agnostic folks?
1) Believe in a higher being. If you don't believe in a creator and someone that watches over this existence we call life, you can not be a Mason.
Someone who Worships Satan would believe that Satan is a higher being , so would they be allowed to join?
It ultimately comes to a matter of faith—either you have some, or you don't. That's really not a judgmental thing—I've got plenty of friends who are either atheist or agnostic, and I labeled myself as agnostic for a good chunk of my life. But when I really sat down and started to think about my own beliefs, I realized that I'd classify myself as Deist more than anything else. I do believe there is "something" greater than us, but I don't personally believe it has a hands-on interaction with the day-to-day lives of men.
However, someone that is uncertain of the existence of a higher being do to lack of scientific evidence to back up such a claim would not be allowed to join?
Careful, you're letting your own arrogance and ignorance show.
Originally posted by Haxsaw
If you're gullible enough to swear secrecy to something you dont know much about then I've got some real-estate to sell you, the masons claim to be smart and out to do good, but put simply they wouldnt be a mason if they were. Your arrogance and ignorance has to have surpassed your intelligence to even contemplate being a mason. In fact they make me sick, as most full blown hypocrites do.
We are united by faith. That is our choice. Once we agree that our words and actions have consequences beyond the mortal coil, then we can call on each other to act accordingly. You're right in that we set aside religious differences because none of us can know who's religion is "right" until we're dead anyway, but it is the belief that there is something that is the foundation of our agreement.
Originally posted by interupt42
While it’s great that you accept all forms of religion you are discriminating without any factual evidence against those people who are honest enough to say to themselves and others “that we as humans have no idea if a greater power TRULY exist (GOD)”. As far as I know it’s just a gut feeling(faith) when it comes down to it and no scientific evidence to back it up either way. Therefore, only the Agnostic believers are accurate when it comes down to it and are brave enough to accept the fact that we just don't know the REAL truth. Yet, you chose to discriminate against them?
That's the definition of faith.
Sounds silly to me, that you would want your members to be illogical and just blindly accept something as the truth without factual evidence to back it up.
Who are we to say which, if any of them, is "right"?
Even sillier is the fact you would be willing to accept contradicting religions which suggest some of them have to be wrong.
And… your reasoned questions turn to insults. Nice.
Either Masons are up to no good and hiding behind their good deeds or there are a bunch of average intelligence people getting together in a club in order to try to inflate their own virtual superiority? Kind of the King of the Dip$hit scenario.
And that's what we do.
There is nothing wrong with being truthful with yourself and acknowledging that certain things you will never know the REAL answer to.
And who decides what the right reasons are? You do the right thing because the right thing needs getting done—not for seeking a reward or acknowledgment, and not out of fear of punishment for not doing it.
Doing the right thing is only half of it, you need to do it for the right reasons as well.
If there are atheist benevolent societies, you're free to join one of those. No idea if such things exist. I know a lot of big-name skeptics, and I've never heard them mention such...
Originally posted by interupt42
Originally posted by butcherguy
The reality of it is , the higher you go, the more time, effort and money you put in to the fraternity. What you put in goes to help poor crippled children for the most part.
All great things! So why would you want to limit(exclude memberships) people from doing those things?
You're mistaken on the number of levels and the structure of Masonry. Once you've reached the 3rd degree, we're all equal.
In addition I'm not to keen on joining organizations, agreeing to anything , or getting involved with any organization that I don't fully understand their cause.
I'm a little skeptical of the Mason organization , since most Mason say there purpose is to do good. However, they like limit who can join their organization and keep internal secrets based on the rank you achieve or the amount of time and money you dedicate.
So your basic argument is, you won't buy a mystery book if you don't know "who done it" ahead of time? So you want to skip to the last page before you stand in the checkout line? Our "secrets" have been exposed for more than 200 years. Go to your local bookstore and pay five bucks for a copy of Duncan's Ritual if you really want to know.
I don't disagree with you but in today's world you got to understand my skepticism about joining any organization that requires my time and money up front without me fully understanding or even being able to research its inner workings.
Originally posted by allprowolfy
did we not all come from Adam and Eve, or was that a fairy tale
Also, we do not believe our Worldly actions carry any weight in the afterlife... we have NEVER taught anything saying that what we do now supports where we go in the afterlife. We have ALWAYS taught that what we do now is simply to improve the world that we live in.
I only wish I had the power to help those being discriminated against.
We don't let convicted felons in because we don't trust them. We don't let idiots or cripples in because they need to be able to carry their own weight, literally and figuratively. We don't let underaged kids in because the teachings would probably be squandered. We don't let atheists in because we make a pledge before God, and any such pledge taken by an atheist would be non-binding. We don't let women in because we're a fraternity.
Originally posted by interupt42
1. Why would you limit who can join a good cause?
You need to understand that many of the enlightenment era thinkers were Masons. We're not claiming to have all the answers. But our particular system bases itself on allegories that come from the Bible. If a scientist is a die-hard atheist and rejects the Bible entirely, then he isn't going to get much out of the allegory tales.
2. Why would they not encourage or accept outstanding citizens from the scientific community who the majority do not accept with 100% certainty that a GOD exists? Yet they are willing to accept the majority of the less educated community who are willing to accept a gut feeling(faith) as 100% certainty of a creator?
Uneducated? We'd probably accept a high-school dropout. Mentally handicapped would not be allowed, though, because they would not be able to do their share of the work.
3. Which brings me to: Are uneducated or mentally handicap members allowed to join and flourish among the group? I know that you help them, but do you consider them equals enough to join your cause?
I call him God. But my brother Mohammed may call him Allah. And Bro. Finklestein may call him Jehova. We agree not to argue about what His name is (in fact, God told Moses "I am that I am"). So we call Him the Grand Architect of the Universe, but that's not a name, so much as a description of what He has done.
*who exactly is the "creator" that you refer to? by name.
For the same reason that any churchgoing individual should be allowed to run for office.
*why should society allow anyone whom has been sworn under a secretive oath to run for president(and swear to another oath) or any high position of power. ?
What child sacrifices? What genocide? And by which members who you can prove to be Masons?
*in your mind does donating a million dollars a day, justify all the child sacrifices. and genocide caused by any member of a secretive club.?
There is no hazing in Masonic ritual. You're confusing us with college frats.
*why would anyone wanna join a secretive club that humiliates you during the initiation and higher degrees to keep you in bondage and make you feel accepted?
And yet, you, who's not even a member, seem to know everything? Many of the Masonic ATS members here are "high level" depending on what your criteria for such is. But then again, you have no idea how to even begin to define high level...
sorry i am assuming you are in the higher degrees if not. no response needed.
most that are at the bottom are clueless to whats going on.
None but it's nicer to walk a path with a friend, or with someone who's travelled that way before you and can offer guidance than to try to do it on your own.
*what secrets of the universe have you have found that you could not found on your own.?
color=Yellow huh indeed.
Originally posted by spoonbender
Ah, and your solution is to bash us all over the head with the Bible and tell us that the only way is through Christ? That's much more civilized, I'm sure.
Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
[is that not a form of tool to keep you in a mind-frame of false "unity" with your bretherin and brainwashing you to accept a future new world order where all religions become one?.I think it was mentioned by Machiavelli in his book "the prince" that any great leader whom wants to have the acceptance of the people should allow the masses to keep their personal beliefs. and he refers to a perfect example the Persian king Cyrus the great- the one who freed the Jewish slaves after his conquest of Babylon. well this is the same concept used in masonry to assure your "loyalty."]
Last time I checked, there were no blood oaths required to join Masonry either.
[last time i checked there were no blood oaths required to join a church.]
[jack the ripper, masonic numerology pointing to 911 being a mass sacrificial ritual. the wars in the middle east being started on pagan roman holidays. are you familiar with the finders? the royal order of the jesters? or the dead bodies found in Benjamin Franklin old house overseas.?]
But that has nothing to do with Masonry.
[every secretive club does this in different ways masonry is used to see which people will be recruited to the other lesser known invitation only clubs.]
You need to work on your reading comprehension. The title of the thread is Secrets of the Craft, not Secrets of the Universe.
[oooooh. because i swear your title says:Secrets Of The Craft From A Master Mason!]
It doesn't tell me ANYTHING about generalities. It shows one isolated incident.
Originally posted by circuitsports
I know a 33rd degree SFRM and he got drunk not to long ago at age 72 and got into a fist fight with his 53 year old daughter, so what does that tell you about generalities.
And you'll find that most of the Masons here would agree with you. There haven't been any Masons in real positions of power in years. (The last US President who was a Mason was Gerald Ford more than 30 years ago. In the elections since then, some Masons have run, but never got elected. (Most never made it past the primaries.))
Originally posted by cointelprotroll
Star and flags for you friend. Your response to my dribble was most sincere. Lets get a few things straight though. In my opinion, which is different than yours, I believe the power of freemasonry is antiquated; in the sense that it has been transfered to other orginizations. hence, all the disclosure as of late.
But you're both saying the same thing! Again, the Masons haven't been the movers and shakers in decades. Yes, there probably is a small cabal of people doing nefarious things to control certain aspects of the global economy among other things, but that has nothing to do with Masonry! So when Network Dude says he's a Mason and there are no secrets, he's telling the truth.
Now you may be a high level mason, but your obviously not a mover and shaker of the world, or you would not be spending massive amounts of time on ATS. believe me, nor am I. because it's within this very small cabal of people that lie the mysteries of our society. You say your in with them, and there is no secrets. I say your not, and there are secrets. Good day My friend