Secrets Of The Craft From A Master Mason!, page 2

reply to post by Scilon

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What condescension? Where have any of us, or any Masonic body, said we are better than non-Masons? Can you give examples? In fact, I can say I can give examples of the condescension and, very much, fascist ideas that non-Masons explore in regards to dealing with Freemasonry. Since the time I joined this site, I've been called every name under the book and said that since I'm not a Freemason I am not entitled to the freedoms, liberties, and privileges of the average man. Have us ATS Masons mocked you anti-Masons? Sure have, it's easy to do with the amount of crap (often recycled hoaxes) relentlessly spewed at us.

If you have done any research then post the sources and sites you're pulling from. I'm not one to just take your word at face value, particularly when what you've said I know is wrong.

The only enemies of Freemasonry are: ignorance, fanaticism, and tyranny. We are often used as the scapegoat for those three previously named.

I do post my research and try to sway the rational minds that may view the thread, but I'm not going out of my way to force a mind who has it stuck in the sand.

Do the Hells Angels give as much as us? What Mason has done what the HA have? What crimes is Freemasonry guilty of?

What is logical about your accusations? You say we're guilty of crime, but don't say what the crime is. It is you to provide the charges as well as providing the proof. Your post is filled with invalid and unsound arguments; ie illogical - if you've taken even the most basic course on logic. Non sequitur arguments don't prove anything. I again, ask you to please provide evidence.

reply to post by Scilon

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You are saying we are a part of a criminal organization, but have yet to provide any evidence.

reply to post by el1jah

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You can see some mysticism in many of our degrees. Tim Hogan and Cliff Porter are two of my favorite authors who discuss such topics. Art de Hoyos also does some fantastic writings on the subject. There are also various bodies such as the SRICF who dabble into rosicrucian beliefs. I could write a bit more, but I have a class to attend.

reply to post by KSigMason

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Thanks for the reply, will investigate.

reply to post by KSigMason

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ATS FREEMASONS PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU RESPOND.

I never once called Freemasonry a criminal group. You are delusional and prone to vitriolic attacks.

So you would argue with me, as to how your members are perceived by me in this thread? What brass balls you have. Don't you tell me how to think about my interactions with others. As to the evidence of wrong doing I flatly refuse. It's not up to me to throw up things you know yourself exist, just so you can dismiss and knock them down with your trite, tired pat rebuttals.

You are making the absurd statement that no masonic group or lodge has acting wrongly or in a criminal fashion and for that statement I accuse you indeed of playing dumb with me and the rest of the community.

It seems your members cannot refrain from hostility or making demands and giving out orders. Why is a group which preaches brotherhood and peace so damnably quick to deny any wrong doing at all, when the public record is literally loaded with such events?

I constantly expect more from Freemasons On-line and I am constantly let down again and again. Instead of explaining yourselves and asking for greater unity you simply denounce any and all criticism after getting hyper offended.

Fair enough, war it is. You can add me to the vast and ever growing list of people in direct opposition to your aged, mothballed secret club. Three times I asked for your logic and reason, Freemasons. And four times I am attacked. You embarrass yourselves.

Don't you EVER wonder why we oppose you.

Originally posted by Scilon
reply to post by YouAreLiedTo

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Okay, to clarify my point.

I utterly respect and recognize the ancestry, status and influence of Freemasonry. In a time of darkness the Order managed to help crush despotic Monarchies both in America and France. However, the Monarchy in England still reigns despite the commonly told fantasy that they wield no power. I recognize and appreciate Freemasonry for dispelling the aged and useless system of Monarchy.

However, I do begrudge the new Order which has replaced it and left the world in as frantic a state as ever. Instead of rulers with Crown and Scepter we have rulers with Code and Password. Added to that is secrecy. This is not an ideal situation for those outside the order to be placed in,

I have a dual major in International Business and Philosophy...

I have a minors in two languages and Theology.

The way I think was not made by the path I followed as a Mason. Conversely, the path I follow was given a meaning by Masonry.

Go about it...

reply to post by Scilon

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For my part, I am against all secret orders, societies, mystery religions and shadow cabals, not from a hostile stand point but in the same way that I am against the various warring hierarchical cults who have our nations in their fanatics' grip.

If I may kindly ask, are you against college fraternities also? The Jesuits? Girl Scouts? How 'bout the Black Caucus?

Fact is, there is myriad clubs and organizations throughout the world with varying missions and interests.

Had the Catholics, once empowered by the Romans, not literally exterminated the gnostics and mystics around the world, such practices would not have had to go underground. The Masons and Rosicrucian Order are just examples of many others.

BTW - I was raised Catholic.

Bless your heart friend. I wish you well.

Facing the East,
Capo

reply to post by capod2t

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I 100% agree with you on the Catholic witch hunt. I really do. As well I applaud Freemasonry for their efforts to eliminate Crown control, however is it NOT true that the ROYAL houses of England to this day hold vast influence over the Order? Or did Freemasonry merely overthrow monarchies they opposed?

I fear what was once a revolutionary group opposing the bloated power structures has indeed become the new bloated power structure.

reply to post by YouAreLiedTo

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All good things, but one great error in judgment I see wrong with the Masons is that they don't accept those who are truthful to themselves and others.

While it’s great that you accept all forms of religion you are discriminating without any factual evidence against those people who are honest enough to say to themselves and others “that we as humans have no idea if a greater power TRULY exist (GOD)”. As far as I know it’s just a gut feeling(faith) when it comes down to it and no scientific evidence to back it up either way. Therefore, only the Agnostic believers are accurate when it comes down to it and are brave enough to accept the fact that we just don't know the REAL truth. Yet, you chose to discriminate against them?

Sounds silly to me, that you would want your members to be illogical and just blindly accept something as the truth without factual evidence to back it up. Even sillier is the fact you would be willing to accept contradicting religions which suggest some of them have to be wrong. Then again, most cults and con-men thrive on the weak and gullible.

Either Masons are up to no good and hiding behind their good deeds or there are a bunch of average intelligence people getting together in a club in order to try to inflate their own virtual superiority? Kind of the King of the Dip$hit scenario.

Originally posted by Scilon
reply to post by KSigMason

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ATS FREEMASONS PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU RESPOND.

I never once called Freemasonry a criminal group. You are delusional and prone to vitriolic attacks.

It's now 2012 and we still allow secretive self-interested groups and organizations to place members into high places. Anyone who remains unaware of the crimes and more sinister side of Masonry at this point is either willingly lying or woefully ignorant of the Organizations history.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there, maybe you would want to go back and rewrite that statement that doesn't at its most kind reading to you heavily suggest you implicitly believe them to be a criminal organization or having done criminal acts in the past.

Originally posted by capod2t
reply to post by Scilon

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For my part, I am against all secret orders, societies, mystery religions and shadow cabals, not from a hostile stand point but in the same way that I am against the various warring hierarchical cults who have our nations in their fanatics' grip.

If I may kindly ask, are you against college fraternities also? The Jesuits? Girl Scouts? How 'bout the Black Caucus?

Fact is, there is myriad clubs and organizations throughout the world with varying missions and interests.

Had the Catholics, once empowered by the Romans, not literally exterminated the gnostics and mystics around the world, such practices would not have had to go underground. The Masons and Rosicrucian Order are just examples of many others.

BTW - I was raised Catholic.

Bless your heart friend. I wish you well.

Facing the East,
Capo

From my own understanding we as human beings tend to want to form Groups and sub-Groups within our society's it is just an inherent trait within as we are attracted to those who we share common interests and values with. Group dynamics 101. However when that group or groups impinge on the society around them in a violent and non-peaceful way then that is the issue. However I see the Masons are not part of that group

reply to post by Koffee

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What a petty response. You ignore the great breadth of what I have to say to focus on a single inconsistency which I explain thusly:

Freemasonry is not a criminal group.

Freemasons have in the past used their club in order to commit crimes which are then not only covered, but are even DEFENDED by every Freemason around the world, ie you.

Originally posted by interupt42
reply to post by YouAreLiedTo

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All good things, but one great error in judgment I see wrong with the Masons is that they don't accept those who are truthful to themselves and others.

While it’s great that you accept all forms of religion you are discriminating without any factual evidence against those people who are honest enough to say to themselves and others “that we as humans have no idea if a greater power TRULY exist (GOD)”. As far as I know it’s just a gut feeling(faith) when it comes down to it and no scientific evidence to back it up either way. Therefore, only the Agnostic believers are accurate when it comes down to it and are brave enough to accept the fact that we just don't know the REAL truth. Yet, you chose to discriminate against them?

Sounds silly to me, that you would want your members to be illogical and just blindly accept something as the truth without factual evidence to back it up. Even sillier is the fact you would be willing to accept contradicting religions which suggest some of them have to be wrong. Then again, most cults and con-men thrive on the weak and gullible.

Either Masons are up to no good and hiding behind their good deeds or there are a bunch of average intelligence people getting together in a club in order to try to inflate their own virtual superiority? Kind of the King of the Dip$hit scenario.

edit on 13-3-2012 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

If you believe the Big Bang was your creator, most lodges will accept that.

The don't ask, they only mandate you believe in something higher than yourself.

Do you believe humans are the highest being in the universe?

Either you believe that humans are the peak of evolution, or you believe in a higher being.

It's really as simple as that.

And while I don't believe in any indoctrinated religion... I do believe that there is a power higher than us.

Do I believe in the bible?

No.

Do I accept Muslim beliefs? Or Catholic? Or Taoist?...

No...

I accept what I believe.

You don't have to believe in my "god". I know he exists... and your books and religious crusades/jihadism (same thing) will not sway my judgment one way or another.

Your god does not judge me, nor does mine judge you.

Make THIS life better...

You may not see your kids' afterlife, but they will surely see the world after you leave it behind.

Just make sure you leave this world better than you were born into, and you have don your part.

Maybe I am biased...

I leave this thread to ATS...

reply to post by bo12au

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Hesperia 411..

Chicago, IL.

If you want the phone number or e-mail let me know...

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