Obama to announce rare earth trade case against China

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Just to point this out so we can move beyond the America Sucks crowd in this thread. The European Union and Japan are also a part of that dispute with the same issues the US has.

The embargo on Cuba has absolutely nothing to do with the WTO or even this topic.

Also the US and Japan has developed new technology that allows them to pull the elements out the ground where before it was not possible.

And all the satellite countries in Europe are doing this for America, not for themselves.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Just to point this out so we can move beyond the America Sucks crowd in this thread. The European Union and Japan are also a part of that dispute with the same issues the US has.

The embargo on Cuba has absolutely nothing to do with the WTO or even this topic.

Also the US and Japan has developed new technology that allows them to pull the elements out the ground where before it was not possible.

Would you like to explain why you feel that the Cuban embargo has nothing to do with the continued and neverending hypocrisy flowing from America in complaining about China placing restrictions on exports of their own material?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Indeed. You can even extract the stuff from the Sea and at a lower cost (financially and environmentally) than mining. If it was such a big issue, this would have hit the news long ago or we would be using the new tech already. This is just a minor trade spat, of which the WTO is full of.

Originally posted by stumason
Seems that they are happy to be a WTO member but not play by the rules and, by and large, they have been allowed to get away with it despite the damage done to our economies as a result.

Because all the other WTO members play by the rules?

reply to post by Justwork


You clearly have no idea what the WTO is and what it is for. It is about Free trade and, even if your a WTO member, you can have tarriffs slapped on you by other members if they believe you are operating outside the rules such as using unfair trade practices, like subsidies. The WTO cares not for the form of Government, just market access and fair play.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Justwork

 

You clearly have no idea what the WTO is and what it is for. It is about Free trade and, even if your a WTO member, you can have tarriffs slapped on you by other members if they believe you are operating outside the rules such as using unfair trade practices, like subsidies. The WTO cares not for the form of Government, just market access and fair play.

Even more reasons why the US ought to be embargoed by every other nation. You clearly fail to see that the WTO is just the tool used by the US to excert financial tyranny on all other nations.

China is free to do as it pleases with regards to its own natural resources, the US must be brought to line for its transgressions and illegal practices.

reply to post by Justwork


No one made China join, it was their stated aim for over a decade and is the only reason their economy took off.

Without the WTO, China would be a backwater. But then, without the WTO, the developed nations heavy industries wouldn't have been outsourced, along with other sectors. It is a double edged sword and there are pro's and con's to being in it. The developed world get's access to resources, markets and cheap labour, the developing world gets jobs and access to markets.

Or, we could just go down the road of protectionism, which last time round led to imperialism. For example, the British Empire wasn't forged ut of a need to conquer the world and spread civilisation, but rather about securing access to resources for our industries and the markets to sell the goods back to.

I am wondering if perhaps this news from China is only the latest "thing" to happen. Wasn't it not too long ago that satellites discovered extensive deposits of lithium and other desirable raw materials in Afghanistan?

www.thenewslink.com...

What if this move by the Chinese is in response to the US essentially holding Afghanistan and thereby "holding" all this mineral wealth as well. Then again, maybe this move is another play in the plan by China to equalize the scales a bit and really stick it to the US for the theft of all their gold before and during WWII. Hurt the US in the only way that seems to make any difference - the pocketbook.

Originally posted by stumason

Or, we could just go down the road of protectionism, which last time round led to imperialism. For example, the British Empire wasn't forged ut of a need to conquer the world and spread civilisation, but rather about securing access to resources for our industries and the markets to sell the goods back to.

I really hope you weren't trying to use Imperialism and our Glorious Empire as an example of what not to do. The Empire was the most glorious institution this earth has ever seen, and Imperialism might well be the only hope we have of remaining a power.

reply to post by stumason


As another member mentioned before, China has every right to do what it sees fit with its own internal resources when it comes to export quotas, production quotas, mining licences and processing.

It is not a WTO issue. For China, it is an environmental issue - China only has some 30% of known rare earth reserves, but produces 90% of the world's rare earth minerals: at massive enviromental cost to China. This huge environmental cost is not priced into the market rates of the rare earths, and I do not blame the Chinese government for capping new licenses, restricting mining and exports, and seeking tougher environmental standards in its own backyard.

Australia has the world's largest rare earth reserves, yet plans for one of its new mines coming online at the moment seeks to do all the processing of the rare earths at a plant in Malaysia. Many Malaysians at the moment are none too happy about this, precisely because of the environmental and ecological dangers involved in the processing of rare earths.

Why should China beef up production - or even maintain production at current unsustainable and ecologically unsound levels - of one sector of its resources just to appease foreigners?

The answer is it has every right to see to fixing up its own backyard, and if that means cooling down production rates and ensuring its domestic industry gets first dibs on its OWN RESOURCES, then so be it.

Originally posted by cloudbreak
reply to post by stumason

 

As another member mentioned before, China has every right to do what it sees fit with its own internal resources when it comes to export quotas, production quotas, mining licences and processing.

It is not a WTO issue. For China, it is an environmental issue - China only has some 30% of known rare earth reserves, but produces 90% of the world's rare earth minerals: at massive enviromental cost to China. This huge environmental cost is not priced into the market rates of the rare earths, and I do not blame the Chinese government for capping new licenses, restricting mining and exports, and seeking tougher environmental standards in its own backyard.

Australia has the world's largest rare earth reserves, yet plans for one of its new mines coming online at the moment seeks to do all the processing of the rare earths at a plant in Malaysia. Many Malaysians at the moment are none too happy about this, precisely because of the environmental and ecological dangers involved in the processing of rare earths.

Why should China beef up production - or even maintain production at current unsustainable and ecologically unsound levels - of one sector of its resources just to appease foreigners?

The answer is it has every right to see to fixing up its own backyard, and if that means cooling down production rates and ensuring its domestic industry gets first dibs on its OWN RESOURCES, then so be it.

Excellent point. China is under NO obligation to sell it's resources to anyone. Most countries DO sell, becuase it's a revenue stream. It's true that processing rare earth materials is hazardous, not only to the environment, but to people as well. Look at the "e-waste" problem certain parts of China are experiencing. Those are examples of exactly what NOT to do with rare-earth materials, but the concerns are the same, and protecting against those hazards is very costly. China may not see the benefit in investing in a bunch of infastructure for the mining and refining of these materials - they have a lot of other problems, same as every other country.

reply to post by Justwork


Haha, not at all. Given the choice, I would bring the Empire back! But I don't have that choice and I think other countries may take exception to us trying that again..

As for the environmental "concerns" of China, all I can say is that is a smokecreen of utter bollocks. China doesn't care for it's environment and this more than well documented. What this is about is control of a vital resource. They cornered the market then cut production, while forcing companies who want the materials to relocate to China, stripping us (the West) of employment and tax revenue. It's quite simply the first lesson you learn in Running a Monopoly 101.

However, as stated, there are now other methods of rare earth extraction being developed which will put this spat to bed and give us all cheaper TV's as a result too.

I think a bigger concern for the "West" is China's currency and it's low valuation, or perhaps the fact China has now banned it's airlines from buying Airbus in retaliation for the EU slapping charges on flights that generate CO2. Just wait until shipping is charged for it's CO2 generation, we may find China's manufacturing sector suddenly less attractive and bring back industry closer to home (Africa or Turkey)

And you talk about Chinese "environmental concerns".....

reply to post by cloudbreak


A lot of Australia's "new" mines are in fact old ones shut down in the 1990's when China undercut the world market and cornered it. It is now taking an age to restart these mines now they are cutting production. You can't just waltz back into a mine and start excavating.

The same can be said for the US, Greenland, Africa... They are now only stating to be looked at as viable now China has upped the price after taking over the market...

I do find it amusing that you all say China has the right etc etc...

But what of this was the US doing it? I am sure the tune sung would be very different! In fact, I know many of you dislike the practices of OPEC. Exactly the same as what China is doing, controlling production so as to dictate price and manipulate the market.

Originally posted by Justwork
Would you like to explain why you feel that the Cuban embargo has nothing to do with the continued and neverending hypocrisy flowing from America in complaining about China placing restrictions on exports of their own material?

Because the title of the thread and article revolves around the US / EU / Japan and China and not Cuba.

Not hypocrisy either -

Critics say Beijing's strategy is aimed at driving up global prices of the metals and forcing foreign firms to relocate to the vast emerging nation to access them.

Familiarize yourself with -
* - Trade Embargo
* - Economic Sanctions
* - Blockade

Cuba is under embargo by the US and only the US since 1960 because of political issues involving the Soviet Union, not trade.. Recently portions of the Embargo have been lifted due to the Cuban Governments actions on reform.

Read up on the WTO and how it works for a better understanding of whats what so we dont derail the thread into another typical "Hate the US while ignoring all else" crap thread.

Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
And all the satellite countries in Europe are doing this for America, not for themselves.

Please provide your source / link to support your claim.

reply to post by cloudbreak


Its a WTO issue...

So is their currency.. When China joined the WTO they had 5 years to free float their currency. To date they have refused to comply with that obligation. China agreed to allow fair and free access to their markets, which they have failed to do. For the longest time they pegged their currency 1 to 1 with the US dollar while artificially manipulating their markets in order to create a trade imbalance in their favor.

There are clauses present in the WTO that allows a country to suspend / stop / modify etc based on a case by case basis. As an example Russia last year (or 2 years ago I forget) suspended all exports of wheat due to low harvest yields from droughts.

China has filed WTO complaints against some US actions, as have the EU and the US has wto complaints on other issues with China and the EU.

Is there any particular reason that you guys are ignoring everything else and concentrating solely on the US?


Here is some more details as to the why for this topic -

“This isn’t about the China holding the world to ransom. They are saying we need these resources to develop our own economy and achieve energy efficiency, so go find your own supplies”, he said.


Mr Stephens said China had put global competitors out of business in the early 1990s by flooding the market, leading to the closure of the biggest US rare earth mine at Mountain Pass in California - now being revived by Molycorp Minerals.

China floods the foreign market with their cheap products, forcing businesses to close because of Chinese manipulation on manufacturing, mining and transport. They dont use the safety standards most western countries use, which allows them to extract items / manufacture items at rock bottom prices.

Once the businesses go out of business, China is left and effectively cornered the market. Its one thing if its their own markets however it becomes a WTO issue when its directed at another country. As the complaint stated, its about China restricting in order to drive prices up and its done by the process above - Challenge competitors in foreign markets, drive them out of business through manipulated control , then corner that foreign market to benefit only China.

This issue is not new and dates back to the 90s with complaints coming in around 2009 - Source

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Justwork
Would you like to explain why you feel that the Cuban embargo has nothing to do with the continued and neverending hypocrisy flowing from America in complaining about China placing restrictions on exports of their own material?

Because the title of the thread and article revolves around the US / EU / Japan and China and not Cuba.

Not hypocrisy either -

Critics say Beijing's strategy is aimed at driving up global prices of the metals and forcing foreign firms to relocate to the vast emerging nation to access them.

Familiarize yourself with -
* - Trade Embargo
* - Economic Sanctions
* - Blockade

Cuba is under embargo by the US and only the US since 1960 because of political issues involving the Soviet Union, not trade.. Recently portions of the Embargo have been lifted due to the Cuban Governments actions on reform.

Read up on the WTO and how it works for a better understanding of whats what so we dont derail the thread into another typical "Hate the US while ignoring all else" crap thread.

At the end of the day, regardless of all that nonsense, the US is crying foul about not being able to gain access to some precious metals whilst denying millions of innocent Cubans access to anything.

You really are a nasty, hypocritical and awful nation.

reply to post by stumason


You are eaily amused then - though I wonder why you chuckle that a sovereign nation should cede control of its resources to foreigners and pander to the whim of every tom, dick and harry at massive environmental toll to itself.

Hyprocrisy knows no bounds, I guess.

And yes, it is about environmental controls and putting a foot down on the illegal mining, trade and massive ecological damage wrought by rare earth production that China has endured. Granted, environmental controls have been lax in China, but there are many in both government and civilian ranks who are fed up with this and want pollution levels reigned in. This is happening, slowly but surely.

Why do you find it amusing that as a country matures, it seeks to redress some of the ecological problems it has brought on itself in its bid to indutrialize?

Rare earths typically have a contigent radioactive element involved when mining. It's all very well for people to stand back and let China do all the hard slog and face the environmental costs of such mining when they are sitting on fat reserves. There's an overriding element here of being happy to get cheap rare earths from someone else, and letting that 'someone else' face the environmental consequences.

So China wants to clean up its act and bring down levels of pollution, and you find this amusing? Errrm..yeah, ok.

Rare earths aren't rare. Time some of those other reserves in other countries were ramped up, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Is there any particular reason that you guys are ignoring everything else and concentrating solely on the US?

That would be because, once again, despite all it is doing to the world, all the underhanded tactics it uses, the US is portraying itself as a victim.

As I said, you are an awful nation.

Originally posted by Justwork
You really are a nasty, hypocritical and awful nation.

I see your ignorance knows no bounds. Since you did not understand the article or the complaint, let me help you out.

The complaint has nothing to do with not getting the materials. The complaint is centered on China artificially driving up the prices. Thats the accusations by the EU / US / Japan. China responded by stating its because of environmental issues etc.

Since no resolution was reached between the countries involved, a complaint is filed with the WTO to arbitrate and if necessary, issue a ruling based on the complaints on whether or not a country, in this case China, is in violation or no.

As far as your comment about the US - I suggest you actually educate yourself on this topic, as well as Cuba's, before making a claim. That way you won't be "crying foul" over facts you apparently aren't familiar with. Check the blind hatred at the door and learn and stop seeing only what you want while ignoring the rest that doesn't support your position. Stop making claims that are NOT present in the op.