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CONTACT: the effect of Columbus' voyage on the old world

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posted on Mar, 13 2012 @ 09:34 PM
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The old world already knew the world was round. The Greeks had figured that out thousands of years before. Columbus sold the idea that the world was smaller than what was generally thought - he was wrong, however he thought that he'd find the indies and China about where he found the Americas, lucky bastard

A link on the flat earth myth


From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus's estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the Equator) spanned 56⅔ miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile (about 1,830 m) rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[29] He therefore estimated the circumference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).

Furthermore, most scholars accepted Ptolemy's estimate that Eurasia spanned 180° longitude, rather than the actual 130° (to the Chinese mainland) or 150° (to Japan at the latitude of Spain). Columbus, for his part, believed the even higher estimate of Marinus of Tyre, which put the longitudinal span of the Eurasian landmass at 225°, leaving only 135° of water. He also believed that Japan (which he called "Cipangu", following Marco Polo) was much larger, further to the east from China ("Cathay"), and closer to the Equator than it is, and that there were inhabited islands even further to the east than Japan, including the mythical Antillia, which he thought might lie not much further to the west than the Azores. In this he was influenced by the ideas of Florentine physician Paolo dal Pozzo Toscanelli, who corresponded with Columbus before his death in 1482 and who also defended the feasibility of a westward route to Asia.[30]

Columbus therefore estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles), while the correct figure is 19,600 km (12,200 mi)


If the Spanish had thought it was 12,000 miles away they would never have agreed for the simple fact that ships of that time were not capable of that lenght of voyages, due to marine growth, water and food storage.
edit on 13/3/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 13 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
The old world already knew the world was round. The Greeks had figured that out thousands of years before. Columbus sold the idea that the world was smaller than what was generally thought - he was wrong, however he thought that he'd find the indies and China about where he found the Americas, lucky bastard

A link on the flat earth myth


From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus's estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the Equator) spanned 56⅔ miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile (about 1,830 m) rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[29] He therefore estimated the circumference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).

Furthermore, most scholars accepted Ptolemy's estimate that Eurasia spanned 180° longitude, rather than the actual 130° (to the Chinese mainland) or 150° (to Japan at the latitude of Spain). Columbus, for his part, believed the even higher estimate of Marinus of Tyre, which put the longitudinal span of the Eurasian landmass at 225°, leaving only 135° of water. He also believed that Japan (which he called "Cipangu", following Marco Polo) was much larger, further to the east from China ("Cathay"), and closer to the Equator than it is, and that there were inhabited islands even further to the east than Japan, including the mythical Antillia, which he thought might lie not much further to the west than the Azores. In this he was influenced by the ideas of Florentine physician Paolo dal Pozzo Toscanelli, who corresponded with Columbus before his death in 1482 and who also defended the feasibility of a westward route to Asia.[30]

Columbus therefore estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles), while the correct figure is 19,600 km (12,200 mi)


If the Spanish had thought it was 12,000 miles away they would never have agreed for the simple fact that ships of that time were not capable of that lenght of voyages, due to marine growth, water and food storage.
edit on 13/3/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)


Come on now Hanslune,
By the way is that a Viking name?
From what we really are made privy to, on the information hy-way.
You should give some credit, alittle at least where credit is do.
The established founder of the Americas and especially his crews should at least get a standing ovation, Just for the BALLS.
Anyhow the names in the Americas are not the sea of Zorba or the Ismus of Hercules.
You know in retrospect John Glen was a greek and Armstrong was the lucky one.
The best



posted on Mar, 13 2012 @ 11:16 PM
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I think that the real effects of contact wouldn't truly unfold for many decades, if not centuries.
But I think in the near term, the portugese establishing trade links with the indian sub-continent, and China, had a much more profound effect on the old world as a whole.
It changed the balance of power throughout old world, by dramatically redistributited trade income and cut long time overland traders in Asia.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 

One of the most profound effects of the discovery of the New World on the Old was the development of industrial-scale slave trading out of the Atlantic slave trade. The first African slaves were sent to America as early as 1501, but the trade is generally dated from a 1518 grant by Charles V of Spain to his courtier Lorenzo de Gorrevod, permitting the transport of 4,000 African slaves to New Spain.

Another far-reaching effect on Europe was the introduction of syphillis, which Columbus's men brought back with them from America.

I thought we'd get the obvious ones out of the way to start with.



edit on 14/3/12 by Astyanax because: of a cardinal direction.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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Columbus left a small colony on Hispaniola which, when he returned on his second trip, had been destroyed along with the local Indians with whom he had first contact by rival islanders. I know many people regard early colonization as nothing short of a brutal business that cared little for the indigenous populations, but European laws of that time did ban the claiming of lands that were inhabited, Columbus got around that by performing some arcane ceremony with some of the locals in a language they couldn't possibly understand to permit his laying claim to those islands, which the Papal authority (by issuing a papal bull) would later uphold for Spain, but upon his later expeditions he found rivalries had undone some of his questionable claims, which is partly why his later expeditions were brutal military missions of conquest. He engaged in the same disparaging practice of kidnapping/hostage taking for gold that later conquistadors would engage in.

Columbus' intents were not purely to find a passage to India or China, as his letters to the Spanish monarchy would indicate, he had also intended to take slaves and sought treasure as well, which he negotiated for a tenth percentage of. The Papal bull he secured on behalf of his claim also required that all those natives he dominated be converted to Catholicism or face dire consequences (it was called "the Requirement").

All of those natives first contacted quickly fell, mostly due to Columbus' conquest but others from rivalries that were present long before his arrival. He was a vastly superior military force that quickly upset the balance of power on Cuba, Hispaniola, the West Indies, and later in the South and North Americas as conquistadors continued to extend European hegemony over them.

I'd say the most immediate effect of his arrival was the upsetting of the balance of power among the various ethnic populations, on every return trip he found those he had established semi-friendly relations with to be wiped out or under severe stress from other less-friendly tribes. It set in motion the later conquest by purely military means of the Spaniards. It also stoked the colonization fever of the other European powers by military force, since Columbus secured his claim in spite of the fact the lands were inhabited, the rest saw little reason to hesitate in grabbing a piece of the action.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Come on now Hanslune,
By the way is that a Viking name?


Danish first part, French second part


Didn't quite understand the point of your other sentences??



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:13 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


Hi black,
Not to be a party pooper. I was just flippin through some of my recent posts and read your post. Well done and informative. You may call me a busybody, but I hope you don't.
What we have been posting about is the Effects on the Old World, not the New World which your cool post seems to be about.
I for one look forward to the one you will do on the Old World.
Peace brothr. Hanslune is probably nodding off.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


So in the first flush of discovery what was the affect - the Portuguese pushed harder to get around Africa and did a few years later. This radically changed the aspect of power and also demonstrated that the Europeans could adapt their ships for long distance voyaging and return.

At the same time that the Europeans were arising, the Turks and Islam began or continued their long slide to ineffectualness, punctuated by the battle of Lepanto and the siege of Malta. While India was a melee of conflicting states and China had withdrawn from the game.

I wonder when and what effect the news of a 'new world' meant to the Chinese and Islamic world?



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Come on now Hanslune,
By the way is that a Viking name?


Danish first part, French second part


Didn't quite understand the point of your other sentences??


I'd say quite Viking, scond wave.
You would have to refresh me with a quote.
I sorta answered for you with black marketeer I thought you may have crashed like I am going to do.
Later.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Hanslune
 


So in the first flush of discovery what was the affect - the Portuguese pushed harder to get around Africa and did a few years later. This radically changed the aspect of power and also demonstrated that the Europeans could adapt their ships for long distance voyaging and return.

At the same time that the Europeans were arising, the Turks and Islam began or continued their long slide to ineffectualness, punctuated by the battle of Lepanto and the siege of Malta. While India was a melee of conflicting states and China had withdrawn from the game.

I wonder when and what effect the news of a 'new world' meant to the Chinese and Islamic world?

I will not be a piglett But I will jump on item one before night night.
Scurvy was the reason the horn could not be crossed over.
It may seem strange but there are reasons.
#1 that was the place where on board fruits or any perisable commodity containing Vitaman C met it's experation date.
Oh you might say why not just put into a port near the horn. Check it out , with the Ivory coast and lots of black folks that wanted nothing to do with white folks, It took the advent of shipboard wine to sustain the sailors with enough vitiman c to concure every thing south and east of the horn.
If no one else beats me to it, I can answer the rest when I wake up mananna



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 


Yeah I see your point, it's hard to completely separate cause and effect from new and old world, but if one were to look strictly at the effect on the new world, it would be 'relinquishment' and 'eventual vanquishment' (if that's a proper word). What tribes did strike treaties or negotiate with Columbus would be attacked by other tribes, and those who resisted Columbus were subdued by brute force, so it was a 'damned if the do, damned if they don't' scenario for them. The fact that there are virtually no remaining native Indians on the Caribbean islands is proof of what happened to them in the aftermath of contact with Columbus. They were illiterate and their language group split among Arawak/Taino, Carib, and so verbal communication among rival islanders was never easy, we may never know the impact Columbus' arrival had on their world view or religion, all we do know is they reacted resisted Columbus at first and were too primitive to offer much resistance when he returned with greater firearms.

The Arawak of the West Indies were the first to encounter Columbus, and they were largely peaceful, and accepted Columbus' initial colony, but they were attacked and the colony wiped out by rivalries. Columbus returned and in turn began a military conquest of these once peaceful people. That's a hidden side of the history of Columbus, they play up how peaceful the first contact was, but ignore the fact Columbus' own writings show he was there for conquest and not interested in the rights of locals. As it is now, the only surviving Arawaks are in South America, but much of their blood line is mixed with African slaves and whites.

Try looking up some of the native languages and see how little is actually known about them, that should tell you that European arrival caused a great upheaval in the Caribbean. Those who had the misfortune of first contact were nearly utterly wiped out but they at least blunted the effect of European contact on interior tribes of the Americas to a degree, excluding the Aztec of course as the allure of gold was too great on conquistadors.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 04:55 AM
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Hi Hanslune,

Sorry, flicked past the brief for this thread........


So in the first few years after "discovery"? Well, i would certainly say something along the lines of amazement at any natives brought back to Europe and at things like tobacco and potatoes.

Other than that though i would stick with greed.

Whilst stretching this (and therefore going a bit off topic) have you ever read Big Chief Elizabeth by Giles Milton? It is about the first English Settlement in the New World and includes numerous surviving eye witness accounts. Obviously, these were not your standard Europeans of the time (what with travelling to a totally alien environment to establish a colony) but i suspect some of the reactions contained within would be similar.

www.gilesmilton.com...



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 

Influenced, no, supress it, more than likely. Remember back then any public disagreement with the church was grounds for the inquisition being called and a person being brought before them. Those who were rich, got it a bit easy, those who were not, well lets just say it was not so pleasent.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by longjohnbritches
 

Influenced, no, supress it, more than likely. Remember back then any public disagreement with the church was grounds for the inquisition being called and a person being brought before them. Those who were rich, got it a bit easy, those who were not, well lets just say it was not so pleasent.


Hi cigar
Just trying to understand exactly what you mean by supress it.
Did all the gold and silver comming back to Spain cause a supression or something else? Didn't Columbus wind up destitute in the end?
grim days never the less.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 


Depends which old world country you were from. No fear of the inquisition in Britain or Holland at the time. Not even in most of France.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by longjohnbritches


Oh you might say why not just put into a port near the horn. Check it out , with the Ivory coast


My edit time ran out so I will try to correct my error this way.
I ment the Skeloton Coast. "The Gates Of Hell" as the Portugese called it.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by longjohnbritches
 


Depends which old world country you were from. No fear of the inquisition in Britain or Holland at the time. Not even in most of France.


say Amen
You are right on.
I was also just thinking how neat this discussion is. Especially since we all really do not know the countries of origin of the posters here and how that alone can effect the replies. Cause every country and or group has it's own tilt of "The Way It Was".
This is also a great exercise in trying to invision a block of time world wide. Which BTW is a real cool way to appreciate all that has come before us.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Hanslune
 


At the same time that the Europeans were arising, the Turks and Islam began or continued their long slide to ineffectualness, punctuated by the battle of Lepanto and the siege of Malta. While India was a melee of conflicting states and China had withdrawn from the game.

I wonder when and what effect the news of a 'new world' meant to the Chinese and Islamic world?


You may find this hard to understand but all I can do is ask you to give it a shot.
First off the Ottoman Empire is still a bit of an inigma to me.
like so many places that are in the center of the mix.
Of course to answer your post above you will have to allow me to expand the time frame.
First I will attempt to get the time frames in sequence.
China proper fell to the Mongols, perpetrated by Genghis Khan. He and his sons went on to conquer the vast territories from thier homeland to the English Channel. To include areas of the Ottoman's territories and even the middle east.
These guys resembled the Vikings in there drunken modus operendi.
They were totally devastating to any that resisted their dominance.
I would have to check but i think the time lines are pretty contempory.
Where you ask about the effect on China and Islam,
My guess would be that they were to busy cleaning up after all there termoil and dealing with the Crusades.
It is truly amazing that since the time the sober Kublia Khan was in control China has made very few if any attempts at land grabs.
And equally as amazing is the fact that what started in the far east continued from nation to nation in a westward domino effect.
Could you elaborate on Lepanto a bit?
Malta was Napolian? On his way to Egypt?
edit on 14-3-2012 by longjohnbritches because: word scramble



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 

The Mongols only got as far as the gates of Vienna, China was conquered by Kublai Khan, not Genghis, and the Mongols came before the Ottomans, not after. The last Crusade ended in 1272, so the people of the Middle East had more than two hundred years to clean up before Columbus even set sail. The Crusades weren't exactly devastating to the Muslims; the action was confined to the Mediterranean coast and anyway, the Muslims won. The battle of Malta and the siege of Lepanto were confrontations between Christian and Ottoman forces during the 1500s, while Napoleon went to Egypt in 1798.


edit on 14/3/12 by Astyanax because: of a bit more about the Crusades.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 

All of that gold and silver coming back to Spain caused massive inflation on the part of the country and the rise of piracy and other distasteful aspects of that time.



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