Originally posted by AlreadyGone
Capitalist make their money exploiting the labor?
Yes because the worker has to produce more than they are paid for in order for the owner to make profit.
Labour should be treated like any resource, and workers should be paid fully for what they produce, the only way that can happen is if the workers own
the means of production (socialism).
"Capitalism is an economic relationship between the exploiter and exploited, the power and right to live by exploiting the labour of someone else, the
right to exploit the labour of those who possess neither property nor capital and who thus are forced to sell their productive power to the lucky
owners of both." The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 183
What do we call it when I cut my own firewood, sell my firewood, and put the money in my pocket. Who am I exploiting then.
Nobody, and no socialist would have a problem with you doing that. If you were to hire labour to cut your wood, then you take that wood and sell it,
keeping most of the profit for yourself, paying the workers the minimum you can get away with, is the problem.
When I grow tomatoes and corn and raise hogs on my farm... and I till the soil and feed the hogs, and then sell my crops... and put the money
in my pocket...I am a Capitalist... who am I exploiting?
Again the exploitation is in the hiring of labour, not selling a product you personally make. No that is not capitalism, it is simply producing for
the market. Socialism allows markets and selling your product. As long as it is a voluntary agreement, and you are not monopolizing the distribution
of your product, and making it an artificially scarce product by underproduction to keep prices high, there is no problem.
The problem is when resources are under the control of a minority group, and people are denied those resources because that groups interest is making
money for themselves. That is exploitation of the community. If the means to produce those resources are owned collectively by the workers then we
would be self sufficient, not relying on a private owner to provide 'jobs'. What keeps people in poverty is a lack of the means to produce.
Before capitalism people lived off the land, they didn't need 'jobs'. Capitalism came about from a change in the law that allowed land owners to deny
the use of their land to the 'commoners'. This forced the commoners into factories and mills, and they became exploited labour for rich land owners
to make products to sell to other rich land owners. They ONLY reason workers have any rights since then is because of the left-wing, unions, and
workers demanding better pay and conditions. Unions brought you weekends, 40 hour week, payed vacations, safe working conditions. What they don't
have in China and other exploited third world economies.
And when people see me and my family enjoying the fruits of our labor and demand that we share them because we have so much more than they
do.... Who is exploiting whom?
Socialism is not forcing anyone to share anything. It is simply a system whereby the workers, as apposed to a private owner, own the place they work
at. Worker cooperatives/collectives. If you are an independent producer working by yourself you can do what you want with your product.
The idea of socialism is to take away the right of private owners to use their capital to gain personal wealth at the expense of those they hire.
This causes a multitude of economic, and social problems, because capitalists tend to have their own interests at heart, and not the interests of the
communities they live in.
A good example of this right now is the lack of jobs due to labour being sent overseas, where capitalists can make more profit by paying lower wages,
but still sell their product at a high price to you. This is the cycle of capitalism, exploit a country/region making it temporarily wealthy, workers
ultimately demand better pay and conditions, profits go down, capitalists look for other areas to exploit, leaving the area they just left to fall
back into poverty again. America has had a long run, but for capitalists to invest in America again would mean workers accepting Chinese level wages
and conditions. Chinese workers are already demanding better pay.
China today is synonymous with vast sweatshops and the most brutal exploitation of labour by domestic and global capitalism. The majority of the
‘new’ industrial working class, mostly rural migrants who are the legal equivalent of ‘paperless’ immigrants in Europe or America, work twelve
hours a day or longer, for pitiful wages, in unsafe factories, under a military-style regime of fines and petty rules. This edifice of
super-exploitation is built around the repressive one-party state of the CCP, which viciously crushes strikes and all attempts to build free trade
"The working man cannot. . . repurchase that which he has produced for his master. It is thus with all trades whatsoever. . . since, producing for a
master who in one form or another makes a profit, they are obliged to pay more for their own labour than they get for it." Proudhon "What is
Property", p. 189
We are not only exploited by the wage system, but also because we pay the profit when we purchase the goods we produce. We pay twice for everything
in order to make a minority group ever more wealth while the rest of us fall more and more into poverty.
edit on 3/15/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)