We have lost. The government has won.

Mass consumption of goods produced by slave workers making 30 cents an hour in Red China is what some people live for it seems. Or a little kid being beaten everytime he doesen't produce enough cheap underwear for 5 cents an hour somewhere in South America or Vietnam.

Or like how the corporate wealth hoarding drug companies producing a pill which in reality costs so much less to produce than it is sold for. Causing the elderly to have to get in either to Canada or Mexico because they cannot afford the drugs they need to survive on a daily basis.

Or a hard working man in a factory which he is almost ready to retire and it is suddenly closed down and moved to Mexico, the American worker looses his job and pension and is basically kicked in the face while he is down and spit upon by the careless corporations.

As long as your needs are covered.. who cares about others needs, it seems to be the trend in the ultra-hard-capitalism countries.

I am not saying good innovative goods are bad, I am just saying that with business also comes ethics and thinking about the well-being of your fellow man as well as the profit that will come.

[edit on 25-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

You sound like you came right out of the Red America Brigade. Communism and socialism is about the most corrupt philosophy that ever came out of the modern mind.

It's not economics. That's not what ails the world. It's the health of the mind and the body. The money system, the supply of goods, and the labor supply are just the theoretical rhetoric of failed philosophies and silly social reformers.

By and large, people aren't mistreated, they have enough to eat, they can make it. Undeveloped countries have it hard. Sure. If all I knew was how to tie ropes or gather firewood I would have a hard time too.

Socialism exchanges one tyranny for another. Nothing is as ugly as the group collective. Nothing is as stupid, monolithic, or tyrannical as a group entity.

The great works of mankind have, and always weill be performed by gifted individuals. When the group is empowered, those are the first people they harm, oppress, or kill.

I loathe communists, socialists, and all of their ideals. Nothing is as evil to me as a lowest common denominator ruling over the gifted and the elite.

BUT- -I do agree with you about corporations. They are evil, corrupt, and without any virtue. They have grown too large and faceless. They have become legal monstrosities. Their personalities, even their every souls, have been replaced by boards and group-think. This is what has degraded them.

Instead of great men, we have nameless, faceless replaceable boards, disinterested investors, and no accountibility. These kinds of things are unable to make anything great. They can only develop the lowest common denominator. That's how these people are trained, schooled, and experienced.

Arkaleus

There is no "ruling class" under modern socialism. You keep mistaking socialism for stalinism. Socialism is working well in several European countries. Socialism has nothing to do whatsoever with communism. What I support is democratic socialism.

Often you say the lower classes try to overthrow the higher classes. But what you see today is the higher classes abusing the lower classes through fraud. Stripping the smaller man of what he has to survive. What I seek is an equalization of power not wealth. Not one class should be more powerful than the other.. a check in the balance of power is needed to keep a fair and just society.

And no, the lower classes don't rule over the elite.. in my socialism ideals no class rules (Poliitcally) over another class. It doesen't mean we equalize wages as most of the ignorant believe. Some clases will be richer than others.. but the lower classes will not starve/homeless because they lack a certain amount of wealth that is designated by the economy as "survivable" For I indeed care more for my fellow man than nationalism or any president.

[edit on 26-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 26-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

You sound as if you love liberty more than slavery.

I love that too. We seem to share a mutual love of Liberty.

We also would share a mutual hatred of the mindless tyranny of this current system, and its illegal Federal superstate. How corrupt it is! How violent it has become towards the individual.

What are the virtues of a socialist system as you see it made in Europe? Does it promote genius and individual Liberty? Or statism? I cannot understand how a system of common denominators will ever allow the individual Liberty of the genius to be free.

My war isn't against economic or social systems. It is against the forces of demons and their grasp over this material world. That is the underlying war that takes place no matter what kind of governmental system you install. There are great emperors and shabby democracies. There are great republics and foul tyrannies. It is not the system of government or the method of currency. It is the forces of the demon vs the forces of mankind's intellect.

People that avoid this basic understanding are dwelling outside of the real understanding of reality. Whatever system generates the greatest resistance to the forces of the demons and protects the liberties of men, I support.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by mrmulder

Originally posted by jsobecky
marg

the second one nigh impossible.

Why do you say impossible?

I think it's because of the nature of the American people. We've been ingrained since our birth as a country with our current values and economic principles, and it will not be easily changed. No communist candidate would ever be elected to any prominent position in the US.

The only possible way communism would have a chance in the US is if there were a catastrophic, long-lived collapse of our current economic system. I don't see that happening. Bush, no matter what you think of him, (and I know our debt is growing too fast) is going to be re-elected partly because he is trying to give the working person his/her money back in the form of tax cuts.

American people are a kind-hearted, generous lot. But not to the point of "from each..to each.."

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Mass consumption of goods produced by slave workers making 30 cents an hour in Red China is what some people live for it seems. Or a little kid being beaten everytime he doesen't produce enough cheap underwear for 5 cents an hour somewhere in South America or Vietnam.

And what responsibility do these oppressive countries have? Why don't they just refuse to torture their own people for our comfort?

Or like how the corporate wealth hoarding drug companies producing a pill which in reality costs so much less to produce than it is sold for. Causing the elderly to have to get in either to Canada or Mexico because they cannot afford the drugs they need to survive on a daily basis.

Chances are, the same pill that costs $5 here, and $2 in Canada, are manufactured by the same company. The problem is the health care system, so I cede that point to you. But don't underestimate the total cost of the research and testing that goes into the development of safe medicines. FDA regulations result in a five to ten year time period between a drug's development and it's appearance on the market. The drug companies need to be able to recoup those costs to stay in business. Perhaps if we spread the costs across several countries, it would be a fairer system. Canada gets to benefit from US research at little or no cost.

Or a hard working man in a factory which he is almost ready to retire and it is suddenly closed down and moved to Mexico, the American worker looses his job and pension and is basically kicked in the face while he is down and spit upon by the careless corporations.

This is a horrible situation, but not confined to the US. We have labor laws which provide fiinancial and other support to laid-off workers. This is not the case in most other countries, especially those with more restrictive types of government.

It is politically attractive to use a blanket statement like "outsourcing bad", but it is just a bromide. Outsourcing is necessary in todays global economy.

As long as your needs are covered.. who cares about others needs, it seems to be the trend in the ultra-hard-capitalism countries.

Bull. American people are the most generous, giving people on earth. If you want to see dog-eat-dog, go to a communistic country where jobs and educational opportunities are given out on the basis of nepotism and favoritism.

I am not saying good innovative goods are bad, I am just saying that with business also comes ethics and thinking about the well-being of your fellow man as well as the profit that will come.

I am from western PA, left early in life because of the poor state government which resulted in lack of opportunities. I've worked for several of the largest computer companies in the world, and I can say without hesitation that these corporations (and they are not unique in this) are excellent corporate neighbors as well as being very concerned about the labor force. For example, lactation areas are provided for new mothers. Fitness centers, incentives to use mass transportation, bike-to-work programs, etc, are just part of the picture. All this without the existence of labor unions.

jsobecky

TextBut pharmaceutical companies don�t own up to the fact that you and I are already paying twice for new drugs. Not only do we pay high and rapidly-escalating purchase prices for them. We also pay through our taxes. You see, a portion of federal tax revenues goes to support drug research.

For example, eight of the ten most popular drugs produced by one of America�s largest pharmaceutical companies were developed at the National Institutes of Health, which is a huge taxpayer-funded research complex. Most of today�s anti-cancer drugs also have come courtesy of the National Institutes of Health.
[\quote]


www.robertreich.org...



This link was from 2003 oct. but even now the problems are still the same.


Jsobecky

Everything you posted is ok, in a way, but one thing that sticks out is the drugs and drugs manufactures, last night my husband and I were watching a section in the congress that was addressing the rising cost of health care and drugs and how the government is not helping with these problems.

Guess what? Pharmaceuticals are making all the profits, they don't need money for most research because is pay by taxpayer money.

Are you surprised, our own money goes into research?

Funny that after the democrats finishes adressing the problems with the health care and the elderly, the republican stood up and started to talk about the war on terror.

I guess this things concern me after all I have my husband parents and my parents very much alive and they are in the health forgoten cathegory because the war on terror is to important right now, this country is going to have another terror and that is the one that is going to be facing us when the baby boomers start getting their medicare and prescribtion drugs.

It�s something we need to be very aware we are getting older and US have a rising health problems with obesity and health related issues including our children they are getting fatter and they are showing sign of long health care problems, not only the elderly but also the children in this country.


[edit on 29-9-2004 by marg6043]

Originally posted by jsobecky
No communist candidate would ever be elected to any prominent position in the US.

Unless, the American people didn't know his secret agenda was to become a communist.

The only possible way communism would have a chance in the US is if there were a catastrophic, long-lived collapse of our current economic system. I don't see that happening.

I give you 9/11
www.fromthewilderness.com...

Bush, no matter what you think of him, (and I know our debt is growing too fast) is going to be re-elected partly because he is trying to give the working person his/her money back in the form of tax cuts.

Those tax cuts need to be put towards our debt right now. I know the American people need money but you can't have it both ways.

marg

I wasn't aware that part of drug research was paid for with tax dollars, but you know, I would willingly pay for that research. I think that a society has a duty to make sure that it's citizens are healthy. What good is anything else in life if you are in poor health? And every person has a right to have affordable access to good health care.

The NIH has developed many drugs, but I'll bet that it was in partnership with many corporations. This is a good example of public and private working together for the benefit of the people. This is as it should be; public and private working together. This is the purpose of government.

Originally posted by mrmulder

Originally posted by jsobecky
No communist candidate would ever be elected to any prominent position in the US.

Unless, the American people didn't know his secret agenda was to become a communist.

This one is easy. Besides being a totally incredulous premise, there are many methods to handle him, including impeachment or the ballot box.

The only possible way communism would have a chance in the US is if there were a catastrophic, long-lived collapse of our current economic system. I don't see that happening.

I give you 9/11
www.fromthewilderness.com...

Printed on 9/12/01, in the heat of the moment, and subsequently dismissed as sensationalism.

Bush, no matter what you think of him, (and I know our debt is growing too fast) is going to be re-elected partly because he is trying to give the working person his/her money back in the form of tax cuts.

Those tax cuts need to be put towards our debt right now. I know the American people need money but you can't have it both ways.

That's one idea. Another is to stimulate the economy to grow it out of debt; a method that has been proved to be successful in the past.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Printed on 9/12/01, in the heat of the moment, and subsequently dismissed as sensationalism.

How is that dismissed as sensationalism? Please be more specific.

That's one idea. Another is to stimulate the economy to grow it out of debt; a method that has been proved to be successful in the past.

How do you stimulate the economy to grow it out of debt? Again please provide input and examples. Thank you.

[edit on 29-9-2004 by mrmulder]

Originally posted by mrmulder

Originally posted by jsobecky
Printed on 9/12/01, in the heat of the moment, and subsequently dismissed as sensationalism.

How is that dismissed as sensationalism? Please be more specific.

The theory of planted explosives, the buildup of troops in Colombia, etc. The statement that nobody had claimed responsibility, implying government involvement.

How do you stimulate the economy to grow it out of debt? Again please provide input and examples. Thank you.

More disposable income for the consumer stimulates the economy in the form of higher sales, which result in higher tax receipts. More disposable income for the manufacturer results in more investment in plant and labor (jobs).

jsobecky,

I was as surprised as you on that link you have to read the entire link, it also tells you how we still get stuck with the high prices on the medications.

I have not problems with them doing the research but I am upset how they try to scam us into paying outrageous prices for something we help pay for it.

I worry about my parents my father has to take a pill for controlling his prostate cancer from spreading it cost about three thousand dollars a year plus the additional medications he takes for life.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
What is good about our system?

Our material goods? Our cheap bread? Our clothes? These things can be had in any nation. Milk comes the same way in Egypt as it does in a California dairy.

I would venture to guess that the California milk is cleaner and safer than the Egyptian milk.

I guess as long as the master feeds you and doesn't beat you too much, you don't mind your slavery, huh?

Can you define this slavery? I don't feel enslaved at all.

Those of us who would prefer to retain our dignity and free will, there is a good deal of written works on the matter. The revolutionary period of America and France generated a wonderful spirit of cultural and social analysis, and the expression of the individual genius was at an all-time high for our race.

How can you possibly prove that "expression of the individual genius was at an all-time high for our race? And which race are you referring to?

This kind of man is going away, I am afraid. We just don't raise them anymore. They get eaten as soon as they are born. Our society devours geniuses or assimilates them, perhaps as a kind of self-protection mechanism for fear of what a strong individual genius could do to its group-mind construction.

I would venture another guess: that your definition of genius includes philosophers, writers, and scholars. Not so much engineers, doctors, or scientists. In other words, those whose achievements are judged subjectively instead of objectively are the real geniuses. True?

To you, the person that writes a 1,000 page treatise on philosopy (which is ultimately unprovable - you have to accept it as truth) is more of a genius than the engineer that can calculate the stresses on a bridge that would cross the Bering Strait, or the physician who can perform non-invasive heart surgery to save a life. I say this not to berate you, but just as an attempt to understand you. Tell me if I am wrong.

Those who manage to break free of the slaughter of the human spirit and mind are expected to contribute to the group in some other fashion, to demonstrate their servitude to the monstrous group-power that rules the masses in America.

I have to know... what is this monstrous group power that rules the masses in America? Is it specific to America?

So in this there is no real freedom in America anymore, unless you consider mindless ocnsumption of goods at will to be "freedom."

What freedoms have been taken away from you? What freedoms existed 300 years ago that do not exist today? I see just the opposite - we have many more freedoms now than before.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The theory of planted explosives

Now I can't argue with you on that point. I have no proof myself to backup that claim.

the buildup of troops in Colombia

www.fromthewilderness.com...
www.fromthewilderness.com...
www.fromthewilderness.com...

The statement that nobody had claimed responsibility, implying government involvement.

If we're talking about the government then "no." Nobody within the government has claimed responsibility. Of course, they hardly ever do anyways.

But if you're talking about others than check these out:

www.fromthewilderness.com...

The massive infusions of cash from the world's central banks, including the U.S. Federal Reserve may unleash inflationary pressures which will, in turn, act o increase the prices of gold and other commodities.

can you say NWO?

engineers maintain the material bondings of our world, philosphers present them with a righteous direction to pursue. the collective nature of our culture is counter philisophical in the sense that money dictates every concevable option. coorperations are the backbone of this contry, a collective entity, feeding off the unawareness of the average person. a sole objective is to make exponential profits with whatever means possible. if that includes the exploitation of genius engineers, then so be it! this is what i believe to be our soon be fatal shortcoming. perhaps we should rename the country, the united states of coorperation they control the whole lot, senators are helpless to slow down these mighty juggernauts. as long as they have money, they have technology, as long as they have technology, they have government, as long they have government, they have power. when there is a government who has supressed the philisophical indivuals they will have no sense of the righteous path. our leaders have chosen the road to mefumado(buddist road to hell). i for one, have denied this path.

observing as those around me toil away their lives, senslessly indulging in the countless spoils our govt dishes out fuels the gargantuan aura of ignorance plagueing the good people of this country. the optimistic anticipation of a fulfilled life of materialism glosses over the gloom and doom politics spouted by the men in charge. a simply lie, that everything is ok, and the terrorist killers are being pursued, seems to calm everyones nerves.

i am sitting in the center of hell. a wealthy neigborhood, nice comfy house, cable hook up, TV in every room, nice big yard. everything inherated, because we are a good white family. just down the street you can go see the ghetto where there is 20 mexicans crammed into one small apartment. that is capitalism for ya! life goes on, people are fed politics through the media drip tube. staring at the idiot box for hours on end waiting for updates to the laci peterson suspense mystery thriller, oblivious to the atrocities our government commits. individually forking over huge tax sums, destined to be spent on mind boggeling advanced weaponry. is it all a nightmare?