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We must reconcile with Islam

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posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:14 AM
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Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
-- Genesis 18:18-43


I am posting this thread in this forum, because I am well aware, as are most on this forum, that Islam is the target of a deliberate, and conscious, American governmental conspiracy.

Conservatives of ATS, I want you to know that I recognise your great fear of this religion, and its' followers. At times, said fear has been my own. There is no crime in admitting that Islam can be genuinely terrifying, and that as a result, we are terrified of it. So we may have our fear, and we do not need to be condemned for it, by itself.

I also want the conservatives of this web site, and the political Right in general, however, to know that I have also had considerable fear of them and their ideology, as well. For the last 12 or so years, the Political Compass has consistently assessed me as being further left wing politically, than Nelson Mandela. The perspectives of the Right therefore, are generally entirely alien, to the point of being completely incomprehensible to me, most of the time. I really cannot comprehend why many of you people think the way you do.

I began reading and posting on ATS, primarily because although this is changing now, at the time I knew this forum was an online heartland for the Right. I wanted to learn. I wanted to understand. I have recently also attempted to overcome similar apprehensions regarding the Occupy movement, and had a positive experience as a result of that.

We need to be very clear that global, unrestrained war with Islam is not a viable option. It may not be in our best interests, but it is certainly not in the Islamic world's best interests, either. It would most likely lead to the complete annihiliation of both Islamic and non-Islamic society.

This does not, however, mean that I advocate an Islamic takeover of the planet. I have discussed before with some of you, that although there is a genuine, American-led conspiracy ongoing against this religion, that Islamic violence, belligerence, and a desire to subjugate the planet in its' entirety also does genuinely exist, on the part of some Muslims. This is acknowledged, and I continue to feel grave concerns of my own, due to this fact.

Yet the one thing that I must argue against, is this tendency to paint the entire Islamic population with the same brush. To insist that because a certain percentage of Muslims are violent, that every last Islamic individual is. This is both visibly and demonstrably not the case, and conservatives display a lack of intellectual integrity when they ignore this fact.

As a theist, I am someone who believes in the existence of different Gods, as individual, acorporeal personalities. My theistic model is of a single being at a primary level, but one which is able to manifest different ego complexes which can appear as what we consider to be individual Gods. As a Chaos magician, I have at times engaged in spiritually dangerous behaviour. I mention this because, some 2.5 years ago now, one of the experiments which I attempted, was to achieve invocational contact with Allah, as a distinct entity. It was not an act that I felt particularly safe engaging in, to be brutally honest. Given that I have also performed an open-handed evocation of one of the kings of the Goetia, it was also not the most dangerous thing that I have ever done.

Yet the experience was positive, for the most part. I felt that the being in question does share some of the belligerence and imperialism of some of his followers; yet said aggression was also nowhere near as strong as I was expecting. I also encountered something which I was definitely not expecting; and that was genuine gratitude towards me for the attempt at contact.

I do not claim to entirely know how the rift between Islam and the rest of humanity can be healed. Yet I do know that it will take active intelligence. I know that it will take compassion. I know that it will take integrity. I know that it will take courage, on both sides.

For the West's part, we need to cease in our single minded support of the psychopathic government of Israel, in its' attempts to completely destroy the nation of Palestine. Americans must regain control of their government, and cease the wars of invasion in the Middle East, and cease the rape and murder of its' peoples. The fascist media must cease fanning the flames of hatred and fear.

Yet for Islam's part, those Muslims who themselves are not violent, and who are not fanatical, must begin to develop the necessary courage to confront and restrain the fanatical and violent individuals among them. They must make it very clear to the fanatics, that said violence is not consistent with not only the way they choose to live, but the long term survival of humanity as a whole. There genuinely are extremely dangerous and negative elements within the Islamic population, and they are going to require a very firm hand. Western cultural Marxism will not succeed in restraining them.

I am calling on the conservatives of this site, to cease falling for the fearmongering of the NWO cabal, where Islam is concerned. You are unable to plead the excuse of ignorance, because you know better. You know that 9/11 was false flag. You know that Muslims are innocent of 90% of the crimes that your governments have accused them of. You know that their scapegoating is a tactic that is primarily designed to keep us at each other's throats, so the cabal can rule unhindered.




posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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While I abhor the idea of war I respectfully disagree that 'we must reconcile'. It is Islam which must come of age and accept reality.
edit on 10-3-2012 by oghamxx because: (no reason given)


If a peasant in Afghanistan does not want his son 'westernized' by using (fill in product) the solution is not to go bomb their factory, but rather to instill his 'values' in his son.
edit on 10-3-2012 by oghamxx because: (no reason given)


Their choice of the WORLD TRADE center has deep meaning.
edit on 10-3-2012 by oghamxx because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by oghamxx
While I abhor the idea of war I respectfully disagree that 'we must reconcile'. It is Islam which must come of age and accept reality.
edit on 10-3-2012 by oghamxx because: (no reason given)


I said that I think there need to be changes on both sides; or did you conveniently ignore that?



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 

While I agree that gunboat diplomacy/imperialism should end, Madison Ave has honed their marketing skills on Western civilization but are you saying that they now must not use those skills in different cultures? Make me laugh!
edit on 10-3-2012 by oghamxx because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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When I read threads on other websites about honour killings, women having acid thrown in their faces, wives being beheaded, young men being stoned to death because of their haircuts, (all muslim countries, and some western countries too) I cannot understand anyone (western) wanting to have anything to do with islam. It is brutal to its women, its children, and anyone not a muslim, sharia law treats wives worse than cattle. I don't want to advertise other sites, so P2P me for more information.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by oghamxx
While I abhor the idea of war I respectfully disagree that 'we must reconcile'. It is Islam which must come of age and accept reality.


Reconciliation must come from all sides. One of my greatest wishes is for Peace.

However, Islam must grow to evolve with the rest of existence. Islam sanctions ideological war, the Qur'an ordains spousal abuse, and Allah allows slavery. Non-Muslims must pay a jizyah tax for living in an Islamic nation, yet Muslims want freedom and equality in non-Islamic countries. Muslims want freedom to pray anywhere they want including airports, sports arenas, shopping malls, and all public places, yet they offer not much to the Jews or Christians who want to pray at al-Aqsa, the Dome of the Rock, or to even visit the Ka'bah in Mecca or Muhammad's grave at Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina. Islam teaches that eventually the entire world will be ruled by an Islamic Caliph. How do you reconcile with that?

I am an ex-Muslim of a radical fundamentalist sect. The best way to make Peace with Islam is to expose the fact that the Qur'an is the word of man, not the word of God.

Peace.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 




Conservatives of ATS, I want you to know that I recognise your great fear of this religion, and its' followers. At times, said fear has been my own. There is no crime in admitting that Islam can be genuinely terrifying, and that as a result, we are terrified of it. So we may have our fear, and we do not need to be condemned for it, by itself.


You assume quite a lot.

First and foremost, the use of the word 'fear' in this case appears to be a political tag that you are applying to those you have already ID'd as 'conservatives'. The combination is a very powerful tool for creating either intentional misperceptions.

In response, let me offer that what you label as 'fear' is likely more 'concern' in many. Also, you will undoubtedly find this concern across the broad spectrum of political stereotypes and that it is not of Islam itself, but of those who practice the more radical, militant forms by way of killing in the name of their god.

Yes, we have seen this kind of thing in many religions over the ages. Christians in particular had their own branded form of extreme militancy that stretched for many centuries. But two wrongs have never made a right and in this case, it does not excuse anyone, for any reason, from carrying out such actions nor does it condone applying scarlet letters to one's political opposites.

Thanks for a very interesting post



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 08:26 AM
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All it takes for peace to reign,and no strife+the resulting need for reconcilliation,is: "LIVE AND LET LIVE" Dont matter what the races,religions,sexual orientatiens,etc may be-Live your life,harm none,help others where you can,respect other's right to live and to believe what they will..a recipe for heaven right here on Earth,if everyone would just live like this..IT REALY IS THAT SIMPLE.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 08:33 AM
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Reconcile with Islam you say.

That will never happen, until those who use the name of Islam extort the truth are shown for what they really are, also Until those who use the name of Islam to brutally oppress females and force individuals by beating them to convert to that religion. No one will ever reconcile with Islam.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by pikestaff
I cannot understand anyone (western) wanting to have anything to do with islam.


And given all their perceived evils of western civilization, I can not understand their wanting to have anything to do with us yet they do, including moving here. They fail to understand that with our culture comes tolerance including areas where civil authority/conduct trumps religious beliefs, that you can believe what you must but you can not always practice such beliefs when they violate civil/cultural bounds.

It sure appears that they relish blaming our culture for their own personal failures and/or the failure of Islam.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 09:52 AM
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I don't blame westerners for the wars/conflicts in the middle east. We are after all, just citizens. The leaders make the big decisions, while we just follow. We may protest, but there's nothing much we can do.

To the OP, my thoughts are that the moderate majority of muslims are not vocal in speaking out against extremism in the religion as they would not like to have anything to do with the terrorists in fear of getting involved, being targeted by them, or in my case, just simply don't feel that our condemnation of the horrid acts will be heard.

Even if I do speak out against it, say in a forum etc, i'll be instead be bombarded with debates about islam and reading/hearing hateful remarks.

Hence i find myself being at peace in just not speaking out at all as it makes me feel less negative about everything. All i know is, i treat everyone regardless of religion/race with respect and lead my life peacefully as it is.

S + F btw. For peace to work between people we must all take the first step, which is understanding.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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Non-muslims the planet over do not ever need to reconcile with Islam.

We should endeavor to stand up to Jihad at every opportunity and to reduce and eliminate Islamic influence wherever we find it.

Islam has had 1,400 years to reconcile with the peoples of Earth. Islam failed.
edit on 10-3-2012 by mike_trivisonno because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by petrus4
We need to be very clear that global, unrestrained war with Islam is not a viable option.

You might want to tell the Muslims that.
ATS Thread - Iran's Grand Ayatollahs - Earth Belongs to Muslims, The End is Near'

BTW .. Abraham was a loon.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 10:42 AM
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We must reconcile with Islam


The western world in general, has shown tolerance for all religions, Islam included.

However...

There should be no tolerance for radical/extremism, in any form.




edit on 10-3-2012 by LadySkadi because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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TextI am posting this thread in this forum, because I am well aware, as are most on this forum, that Islam is the target of a deliberate, and conscious, American governmental conspiracy.
reply to post by petrus4
 


You may think it is the American government calling the shots , but it is not . The world today is run by a powerful group hell bent on creating a one world government . Just about every nation is under their collective thumb and those who are not are being reeled in. Then there are wars to take your eye off the ball while the NWO pulls a slight of hand .

Everything you see happening today is all working towards one agenda and preparing the way for the return of the prince of this world , Satan. Most of you are in denial of this and will never accept this fact but will come to realize it is truth , but only when it is probably to late . We were all given a play book on what to expect but most write it off as fairy tales . The ones that do read it for the most part see it as ancient history and then there are those who see it for what it is an exact warning on what is to come . The places are the same but the names and technology is different . That play book is the bible and all the stories in it are given to show us what to expect in the last days of mankind.
edit on 10-3-2012 by Azadok because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 11:59 AM
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Islam is just as bad as Christianity
We must abolish all religions.

Religion is the cause of all wars. Every religion has its extremist. Every religion wants to convert ( assimilate) everyone into their religion.
And every religion has killed and will continue to kill those that dont believe and those that doesn't follow their god.
Religion is the TRUE evil of this world.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 12:44 PM
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I too was a victim of anti Muslim / anti Iranian rhetoric in the 1970's. When I attended college in 1980 in Washington DC with a large number of Iranians, I was forced to admit that I had been brainwashed.

That stunning realization set me on a quest for truth that continues here on ATS. What I have found in 30 years:

1. Human beings are not naturally inclined to kill other human beings. In order to justify war the "enemy" must be dehumanized and demonized.
2. There is enormous profit in war. Countries will empty their treasuries and go into debt to wage war.
3. Our country is owned and operated by the companies in business to finance & wage war.
4. Every form of media, all political decisions, the education system are designed to condition Americans to ignore what their soul KNOWS is natural and to believe instead war is natural.

We are waking up to the fraud that has been perpetrated against us. It is becoming impossible to ignore what our souls are screaming out. It is natural to love your neighbor. It is natural to recognize a kindred spirit and their innate humanity.

As we shake off the yokes of tyranny, it is becoming obvious just how extensive and effective the brainwashing has been. In less educated countries, many of them being Muslim, the wagers of war have employed much more brutal forms of brainwashing to instill a visceral, even primal hatred for the "enemy."

What our Muslim brothers need is our love, understanding and exposure to the truth that they too have been victims. Their reaction to meeting Christians and Jews for the first time is even more dumbfounded than my reaction 30 years ago.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Sahabi

Originally posted by oghamxx
While I abhor the idea of war I respectfully disagree that 'we must reconcile'. It is Islam which must come of age and accept reality.


Reconciliation must come from all sides. One of my greatest wishes is for Peace.

However, Islam must grow to evolve with the rest of existence. Islam sanctions ideological war, the Qur'an ordains spousal abuse, and Allah allows slavery. Non-Muslims must pay a jizyah tax for living in an Islamic nation, yet Muslims want freedom and equality in non-Islamic countries. Muslims want freedom to pray anywhere they want including airports, sports arenas, shopping malls, and all public places, yet they offer not much to the Jews or Christians who want to pray at al-Aqsa, the Dome of the Rock, or to even visit the Ka'bah in Mecca or Muhammad's grave at Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina. Islam teaches that eventually the entire world will be ruled by an Islamic Caliph. How do you reconcile with that?

I am an ex-Muslim of a radical fundamentalist sect. The best way to make Peace with Islam is to expose the fact that the Qur'an is the word of man, not the word of God.

Peace.


Well said... Or just keep serving and obeying along with avoiding annoyance.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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never give in, never, never never, Never give in. Winston Churchill.



posted on Mar, 10 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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We paint the entire Islamic community with one brush because.........
If push comes to shove,
Those peaceful moderates will join the side of their Islamic radical brothers.

You didn't think they would en mass defend Christians did you?

I once saw a statement on a message board by an American Border Patrol Agent of Mexican descent,
who said that if there was a War with Mexico he would join the Mexicans against the Americans.

Remember the old saying: Blood is Thicker than Water.



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