Magic, when the art will become a science.

on incantations
NEVER underestimate thew power of the word "PLEASE"

if you sit in the right place and utter the magic words
"waiter may I start with a glass of water first PLEASE"
and then close your eyes and wait for a bit
and then open your eyes:
you may be suprised

reply to post by Danbones


Have you read Rene Guenon?

reply to post by dontreally


No I have not
do YOU think the author actually has insight?
and can he set an example?

if you do I will go find something and read it


Ok I went and read a bunch of his quotes
in difference to that
re my refence to the IChing
man and the realm beyond our perception where there are intelligent entities which can effect elements IN our precieved world interact through the laws of probability.
this is how the Iching works.
and it does work, this is why it is still around after 5000 years

It has been shown that man can effect random number generation by thought alone
it has also been hown that his ability to do so follows the same curve as continuous use muscle strength degradation
and the strength of bent wires as they are bent multiple times till they break

as a sound technician I know much of what appears to be magic is due to resonance
the study of vibration and waves can be VERY enlightening
yet if it is precieved as maguc it is magic..to the uninitiated
(see I did read his stuff)

now take the Kabbalistic creation of a golum
observe the behavior of a corporation....be it the corporation IBM or the United states of America

I truly believe one must look for examples of MAGIC
and one can truly begin to understand it

To those posting,

If you've only seen the movies, don't try to look into the Harry Potter world as a conspiracy. Read the books. Every one of them. Then come back and post. I'm not being a jerk, I'm just saying there is so much more information you don't know about the series to make an accurate comment. Thank you for understanding. It's kinda like commenting on Judeaism when you've only seen the Ten Commandments movie.

Now, as to the "World" of Harry Potter.
J.K Rowlings is British. She took a lot of symbolism and history and meshed it right into her books. In order to make it a good, believable story of a seemingly ordinary boy thrust into, yes, a Secret Society. Period.
Wizards and Witches, Trolls, Goblins, Hippogriffs, Pixies, Doxies, Unicorns, Squibs and Dementors are all elements of European folklore. JKR took all that is "old" and just "modernized"it to flesh out her stories.
In the Wizarding world, there are schools all over the planet, hidden (Unplottable) from the Muggles knowledge. All teaching generations of Magic-Users how to live and work beyond the Muggles awareness. There is, in the story, a whole Government that sits next to the known Governments that governs the Wizarding world. Just as compartmentalized as it "real" counterpart and in those Wizard Governments there are the same problems of Bribes, skull-duggery and murder.
There is bigotry and hate between races and whether or not a wizard has "pure blood" or is a "mud blood" or impure family trees.
There are those wizards and witches who have pure bloodlines and are hated because they believe it shouldn't matter.
There are spells and charms that use Latin phrasology.
There are countless evokations of pure old symbology to intrigue any good conspiracy theorist.
There are good guys and there are bad guys. Sometimes the good guys have bad days and make bad decisions for the best reasons and sometimes the bad guys make good decisions for bad reasons.

Just like the real world.

My opinion is that JKR wrote a good story using the history and symbology of the land she was born and raised in. In Britain you can't throw a stick anywhere without hitting a historical symbol and that's pretty much why it's so chock-full of symbology. It's all around her.

Now, read the books! Then re-read them. Then we'll talk more.

Let's talk about the Sorting Hat and the Houses.
How about the Ministry?
The Bloodlines.
The Wizamagot.
The Death Eaters.

It all has has great symbology and I would love to talk about it. But, ya have to have read the books. As with any movie, they just don't have the ability to recreate the whole of the story enough to really discuss the mindset of the Author.

reply to post by Danbones


His work would you help you understand how magic is the manipulation of metaphysical forces. You seem to think magic is nothing more than please and thankyou's (although the same fundamental principle runs through, it's still but the lowest and most insipid form of sympathetic attraction i.e. psychological 'key words' which can elicit a particular response). Alchemy, the spiritual science, is the enlightened tradition which trickles down into what's called "chemistry" - but make no mistake, Guenon emphasizes, Chemistry is but a symbol for Alchemy; just as metallurgy was but a symbol for the spiritual prototype it bases itself upon, or "freemasonry" - as in the architectural guild, was the translation of a spiritual science into the construction of physical structures(most often cathedrals, castles)

Basically, and I agree with him on this (he bases himself on the 'perennial tradition' which can be summed up succinctly by the hermetic axiom 'as above, so below'.) "magic", in the sense of manipulating the direction of archetypal forces, is a vulgar past time when it comes to experiencing spiritual reality.

People without any appreciable comprehension of metaphysics absorb themselves in "magic" as if it were a fundamental asset in spiritual growth. There is a reason why some of the most evolved religions, Judaism, Islam, in particular, generally discourage, or outright prohibit, the practice of magic.

Instead, their entire existence (regulated by laws, which of course, are but the materialization of spiritual principles and processes) becomes something of a "magical" formula; all aspects of life become symbolic representations of archetypal-spiritual forces, making the mundane particularities of life partake in the super-mundane, transforming meaningless actions into a non-stop meditation of cosmic reality.

reply to post by dontreally


actually I agree with you AND your source to a large extent:

I am simplifying in order to procede step by step with examples
"as above so below" so to speak
(and cause i drank free beer all day the other day by simply playing some incantations on my guitar )

the whole arts of mathematics and chemistry and physics, and cooking are about creating an ability to forsee and contol the future,
to the uninitiated, they produce results which appear as magic (as per the author you quoted's definition of uninitiated)
to the initiated they are a learned set of skills as could be described as science
(re Boncho)

R Bacon was the last great alchemist because when he discovered that you turn lead into gold by making it into bullets there was no need to search for a more mystical solution - the military industrial complex, the mother of all golums, Which is pure KABBALISTIC "magic" was born..erm hatched...er conjured

One of alistair crowley's accomplishments when he came out of a sojourn in the Canadian bush
was that he followed a randomely chosen man who was walking in the street and got in sync with his movements
then he purposfully stumbled and the man he was following stumbled too..
It appeared like magic to the people he was showing this off to, but it was because he understood how to use it like a science.

so I am illustrating that all is science to the initated and magic to the uninitiated
as the author you recommended said meta physics is simply beyound the physical as unbouded at the far end it is bounded at the near end by definition and physics ( unlike your author's definition)

yogis, medicine men, shamen...learn to use thier ability whether they understand it to the depth where it becomes science, or whether they only develope ability without actually understanding what goes on under the hood

is there pure meta physiscs?
metaphysics means in this case beyond the physical
Vibration in the world of thought is vibration beyond the physical effecting the laws of probability of manifestation in the physical.
in the Iching where we can observe EXAMPLES of this, we see it IS a science that can be learned and understood by the initiated...

and even if we can't see the spiritual beings and landscape in the meta physical realm they and it are quite aware of us
we are much uninitiated to them the initiated....

like a frogs eye sends no impulse to his brain at all untill the dangling piece of thread moves, then the eye transmits
till then it is not in his physical universe at all

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by dontreally

 

actually I agree with you AND your source to a large extent:

I am simplifying in order to procede step by step with examples
"as above so below" so to speak
(and cause i drank free beer all day the other day by simply playing some incantations on my guitar )

the whole arts of mathematics and chemistry and physics, and cooking are about creating an ability to forsee and contol the future,
to the uninitiated, they produce results which appear as magic (as per the author you quoted's definition of uninitiated)
to the initiated they are a learned set of skills as could be described as science
(re Boncho)

R Bacon was the last great alchemist because when he discovered that you turn lead into gold by making it into bullets there was no need to search for a more mystical solution - the military industrial complex, the mother of all golums, Which is pure KABBALISTIC "magic" was born..erm hatched...er conjured

One of alistair crowley's accomplishments when he came out of a sojourn in the Canadian bush
was that he followed a randomely chosen man who was walking in the street and got in sync with his movements
then he purposfully stumbled and the man he was following stumbled too..
It appeared like magic to the people he was showing this off to, but it was because he understood how to use it like a science.

so I am illustrating that all is science to the initated and magic to the uninitiated
as the author you recommended said meta physics is simply beyound the physical as unbouded at the far end it is bounded at the near end by definition and physics ( unlike your author's definition)

yogis, medicine men, shamen...learn to use thier ability whether they understand it to the depth where it becomes science, or whether they only develope ability without actually understanding what goes on under the hood

is there pure meta physiscs?
metaphysics means in this case beyond the physical
Vibration in the world of thought is vibration beyond the physical effecting the laws of probability of manifestation in the physical.
in the Iching where we can observe EXAMPLES of this, we see it IS a science that can be learned and understood by the initiated...

and even if we can't see the spiritual beings and landscape in the meta physical realm they and it are quite aware of us
we are much uninitiated to them the initiated....

like a frogs eye sends no impulse to his brain at all untill the dangling piece of thread moves, then the eye transmits
till then it is not in his physical universe at all

edit on 10-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

Yeah....now wait until mainstream science is able to calculate and experiment with new found laws of physics....the nuts and bolts of it all. I think with the string theory, vibration of the tiniest elements of matter which MAYBE can inter-act with other dimesions, we are on our way to fully understand what is happening.

reply to post by Danbones


I essentially made the same argument in my response to astyanax.

Anything which evinces a causative structure, can be called a science. The only difference is general science is a posteriori, dealing with physical reality as it stands, and so is more inductive than deductive, while "magic", is entirely and essentially a priori, meaning if the subject matter isn't understood first in thought alone, and believed on it's own merits, then it will never yield the type of positivist evidence that you would expect from any normal science.

Treat the subject matter on it's own grounds; in the physical sciences, the fundamental ground is the senses; in the mind, it is thought. Physical sciences establish laws or principles through vetting physical reality through the senses; spiritual science establishes laws or principles through evaluating archetypal-metaphysical processes present both in the physical macrocosmic world and the spiritual microcosmic world.

In all probability, it will eventually be discovered that the physical sciences are just the lowest manifestation of the same spiritual principles and laws as they exist at their respective levels.

For example: light can appear both as a wave and a particle. When it's not being observed, its a wave, when it's being observed, it becomes a particle. The parallelism is astounding! The wave is the physical expression of the power of potentiality; as a wave, it is still entirely undifferentiated - and hence, has not been observed, existing still within the realm of the 'potential', or 'prima materia'; when it's observed, the very act of observation renders the wave into a particle, the particle being a state of differentiation. Therefore, non-observation/potentiality, light is a wave, observation (a differentiation at the spiritual level) induces a simultaneous differentiation at the physical level, and therefore the light becomes a particle.

Physical sciences are merely the translation of spiritual laws into physical laws.

reply to post by dontreally

Than you're a total ignoramus...

Your pathological skepticism...

How thoroughly ignorant you are...

Thanks for proving my point.

If magic actually did work, you wouldn't need to be so bloody rude. You'd just put a hex on me and that would be the end of it.

Magic: making a twit of oneself with futile chants, pointless incantations, silly smells and dingdong bells.

Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by autowrench
It cannot be used for personal gain of any kind whatsoever. Used wisely, it can help people.

Why can't it be used for personal gain? Magicians see themselves in 'people.' 'People,' are 1.

I do not make the rules, friend. I do know this because I have personally seen a few who, when realizing their power, used it for their own desires, and it turned back on them, in bad ways. I myself lost 10 Grand and a property and house over a bad spell.

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by autowrench
It cannot be used for personal gain of any kind whatsoever. Used wisely, it can help people.

Why can't it be used for personal gain? Magicians see themselves in 'people.' 'People,' are 1.

I do not make the rules, friend. I do know this because I have personally seen a few who, when realizing their power, used it for their own desires, and it turned back on them, in bad ways. I myself lost 10 Grand and a property and house over a bad spell.

Maybe a little off topic but I can't resist giving a reply on your comment. There is a woman who has a grudge against my brother and sisters. I lived a short moment under the roof of her daughter with my cat. One night I dreamed that my cat jumped over the balconi and broke her back. The next day my cat fell four stories high from tghe balconi but fortunately had no injuries. That following day her own cat mysteriously couldn't move his hind legs. Without giving an answer to my questions about how this could have happened she brought her cat to the vet for a terminal injection. You can understand that it took me less than a day to say goodbye and find shelter elsewhere.

I think the spell bounced....and returned like a boomerang to its owner.

Originally posted by zatara

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by autowrench
It cannot be used for personal gain of any kind whatsoever. Used wisely, it can help people.

Why can't it be used for personal gain? Magicians see themselves in 'people.' 'People,' are 1.

I do not make the rules, friend. I do know this because I have personally seen a few who, when realizing their power, used it for their own desires, and it turned back on them, in bad ways. I myself lost 10 Grand and a property and house over a bad spell.

Maybe a little off topic but I can't resist giving a reply on your comment. There is a woman who has a grudge against my brother and sisters. I lived a short moment under the roof of her daughter with my cat. One night I dreamed that my cat jumped over the balconi and broke her back. The next day my cat fell four stories high from tghe balconi but fortunately had no injuries. That following day her own cat mysteriously couldn't move his hind legs. Without giving an answer to my questions about how this could have happened she brought her cat to the vet for a terminal injection. You can understand that it took me less than a day to say goodbye and find shelter elsewhere.

I think the spell bounced....and returned like a boomerang to its owner.

That is simply amazing. Was it your loving "being-ness" that reverberated the negativity back to her?

That is really an awesome story but I do feel bad for the cat. I sometimes think pets are the smaller form there for the person, and the person needs the pet.

Originally posted by FinalAccount2008

Originally posted by zatara


Maybe a little off topic but I can't resist giving a reply on your comment. There is a woman who has a grudge against my brother and sisters. I lived a short moment under the roof of her daughter with my cat. One night I dreamed that my cat jumped over the balconi and broke her back. The next day my cat fell four stories high from tghe balconi but fortunately had no injuries. That following day her own cat mysteriously couldn't move his hind legs. Without giving an answer to my questions about how this could have happened she brought her cat to the vet for a terminal injection. You can understand that it took me less than a day to say goodbye and find shelter elsewhere.

I think the spell bounced....and returned like a boomerang to its owner.

That is simply amazing. Was it your loving "being-ness" that reverberated the negativity back to her?

That is really an awesome story but I do feel bad for the cat. I sometimes think pets are the smaller form there for the person, and the person needs the pet.

If there is one thing I hate and can not understand people are able to do it is animal abuse. I do not know why the dark intensions had no effect on me...or my cat.

When I think of it I realise that there were other occasions I felt in some sense protected from evil or unfortunate moments. I do not consider myself in such "harmony" with myself that it would somehow deflect "attacks". If that is what you mean....