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i was asked to join the freemasons

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posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
My church still holds that its an excommunication offense to join any secret organizations.
And yet they give the Knights of Columbus a pass?




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:04 AM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


I'm not a catholic either...

Quite a number of Churches hold that Freemasonry is a excommunicable offense. For one thing, they hold that members may believe in any god (idolatry) even though most in the US are Christians, and because they teach a doctrine of salvation through works rather then faith:

To many, the Masonic Lodge appears to be a secret and fraternal organization that emphasizes morality, as well as charitable and benevolent work. Indeed Masons themselves have often defined themselves in these terms, though they often disagree among themselves as to how to define Freemasonry with precision (See Mackey: 269; Daggett: 237). With such an understanding of Masonry in mind, many people view it as, at worst, a somewhat strange, but harmless society, and at best, a good and beneficial one. They also don’t see much difference between the Masonic Lodge and the local Rotary club.

It will surprise many, therefore, to learn that most Christians in the United States (at least 90 million, including Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, the LCMS and other Lutherans, as well as Evangelical churches) belong to churches that forbid membership in Freemasonry because they regard it as incompatible with Christianity. Why is it incompatible? Because the Masonic Lodge is held to be a deistic religious organization that requires belief (members must swear an oath) in a god that is not the triune God, and a god who is accessible apart from Jesus Christ through any religion that believes in god as Creator. In addition, they teach that entrance to the life to come is gained by following the precepts and morality of Freemasonry, that God will let them into heaven merely because they have been faithful Masons.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 4/10/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:26 AM
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When it comes down to the condemnation of Freemasonry is because they don't have control over us and thus cannot completely manipulate the information to suit their agenda. They use the guise of religion, but when it comes down to it its about control.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:40 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 

Masonry is mostly about a bunch of old farts sitting around a room playing cards and hiding out from their wives, dressing up in costumes, giving morality plays, or participating in other fun activities like parades.

I don't believe that there is anything sinister about freemasonry in the way most practice it here now a days.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
For one thing, they hold that members may believe in any god (idolatry) even though most in the US are Christians...


How many 'Gods' are there? I know of only one Creator of the Universe, what you happen to call God is your business.


...and because they teach a doctrine of salvation through works rather then faith:


This is patently false. There is no part of the ritual that speaks of salvation and I have no doubts you can produce any evidence to the contrary.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by KSigMason
 

Masonry is mostly about a bunch of old farts sitting around a room playing cards and hiding out from their wives, dressing up in costumes, giving morality plays, or participating in other fun activities like parades.

I don't believe that there is anything sinister about freemasonry in the way most practice it here now a days.




it's actually much deeper than that. You are right that it's not sinister in any way.

Salvation is not taught. We believe that anything we can do to help others in need should be done, but not for a reward or recognition, just because it's the right thing to do. We hope that we get to heaven just like I am sure you do, but what will determine that is what's in our heart, not how many dollars we raised.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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See Youtube: Re: Anti-Freemasonry, "Occult Forces"



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

My Lodge, while it may not reflect the worldwide Freemasonry, is fairly young in active age group. I was Worshipful Master at 24 and 27. We also have, almost monthly, family night.

We do dress up in some funny costumes from time to time though.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


AM is right. We don't teach any path to Salvation, nor even mention that Salvation should be one's goal in life. We do hope and pray that we get to one day join the Creator in a Spiritual Realm we identify as the house not made with hands.

The Creator could be any number of things, and isn't necessarily a Christian or Muslim "God." In fact, right here on ATS we have a Buddhist Mason. My own personal beliefs are probably a cross between Deism and Buddhism, with a healthy dose of the Abrahamic Religions.

We don't do good works for Salvation, and we don't worship any particular God. We do good works to help one another out and we each provide according to our own means. If we are rich in time, skill, knowledge or money, then we give what we can. If we cannot give, and are in fact in need of charity, there is no shame in asking and accepting help, and it doesn't impact one's "salvation" in any way. I have both given and received much help through my brethren in the Masons, and none of it had anything to do with religion, just friendship.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by getreadyalready
The Creator could be any number of things, and isn't necessarily a Christian or Muslim "God."

This is many churches first problem with it right here.
You are not supposed to believe in a generic god or be engaging in any kind of prayer or activity that condones a “common” (generic) god. That may not sound like its a big deal, and it might just sound like being tolerant of other religions, but the problem comes in when they start asking you to do things like praying together to a generic god. As a Christian I can be tolerant of other religions, but to start engaging in things with them such as “common prayer” is a no-no.


Originally posted by getreadyalready
We don't do good works for Salvation, and we don't worship any particular God. We do good works to help one another out and we each provide according to our own means.

I believe that they are referring to things such as your morality plays that are intended to make you an “upright masonic man” as being the “works”, not the actual charitable works that you do. This is also where the identification with religions such as luciferianism come from as it teaches a similar path of “enlightenment” through personal rituals. While both freemasonry and others teach that you can achieve a sort of “enlightenment”, “goodhood”, or “salvation” through your personal actions, Christianity teaches that we are all sinful by nature and are only justified through the actions of God.
Additionally, both these groups doctrines (for lack of a better word) are drawn from Gnosticism, and that has been considered heretical teaching by Christians dating back to St Irenaeus writing of Against Heresies.

Even according to our old member Masonic Light, who was a Freemason and claimed to be a historian of Freemasonry, masonry is based on Hermeticism, Gnosticism , and Cabalaist teachings. Both Gnosticism and Cabala are considered heretical by Christianity. With this in mind, the Churches are correct that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity, no matter how much many Freemasons cry differently. As the Bible says, you can only serve one master, you are either a Christian or you are a Freemason.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by pez1975
i personally think its a great fraternity and will help you become A better man and help guide your moral compass toward charity and good will to fellow men.


What happened to blood and the killing and diamonds and riches, sacrifices, owls, red robes, secret locations in the woods, underground worlds and special privileges?.......

I thought that's what a Freemason was. I would join but it sounds like a group of Jesus loving fruit cakes.

What happened to Satan?



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

Just to clear up your statement, Christianity as you describe it, is incompatible with masonry, not the other way around.

We do say prayers at the opening and closing of a lodge. I suppose you stay away from large sporting events, like football games and baseball games and the like? They pray at the beginning of those as well, and there may be a person who is Muslim or Jewish there. Is your logic flawed? Hmmmm.

edit to add:
Defcon5, please don't take offence to my questioning. I am not being confrontational, only debating. I just don't want to come off like an ass. I like your views on some other subjects.
edit on 10-4-2012 by network dude because: clarify my tone.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5


This is many churches first problem with it right here.
You are not supposed to believe in a generic god or be engaging in any kind of prayer or activity that condones a “common” (generic) god. That may not sound like its a big deal, and it might just sound like being tolerant of other religions, but the problem comes in when they start asking you to do things like praying together to a generic god. As a Christian I can be tolerant of other religions, but to start engaging in things with them such as “common prayer” is a no-no.


Freemasonry does not claim that God is "generic". Some Christian sects, as well as some Islamic ones, are ultra-elitists, claiming that their own concept of God is correct, and everyone else's false. I see this as extremely cultish and narrow-minded. Anyone who believes that he himself has a monopoly on religious truth is deluded, and such persons would not make good Masons anyway.



While both freemasonry and others teach that you can achieve a sort of “enlightenment”, “goodhood”, or “salvation” through your personal actions, Christianity teaches that we are all sinful by nature and are only justified through the actions of God.


Freemasonry does not teach that one can attain salvation or anything else through personal actions. It simply teaches that people have a duty to do what is right.


Additionally, both these groups doctrines (for lack of a better word) are drawn from Gnosticism, and that has been considered heretical teaching by Christians


No, Gnostic Christianity has been considered heretical by Roman Catholicism and its offshoots (Protestant sects). But on the flipside, Gnostic Christians consider Roman Catholics and Protestants heretical. In the end, each shall be known by their fruits....and it wasn't the Gnostic sects of Christianity who imposed the sword on unbelievers.


. Both Gnosticism and Cabala are considered heretical by Christianity.


No, they are not. We who are Gnostic Christians partake in the apostolic communion of the First Church. The fact that Romanists and Protestants consider us heretical is irrelevant.

edit on 10-4-2012 by Masonic Light because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by holywar666

Originally posted by pez1975
i personally think its a great fraternity and will help you become A better man and help guide your moral compass toward charity and good will to fellow men.


What happened to blood and the killing and diamonds and riches, sacrifices, owls, red robes, secret locations in the woods, underground worlds and special privileges?.......

I thought that's what a Freemason was. I would join but it sounds like a group of Jesus loving fruit cakes.

What happened to Satan?



Wrong group. Sorry, we stopped with all that months ago. It's all fuzzy slippers and white robes now.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Oh, one more thing that should be pointed out, there is a part of the initiation ceremony that is of particular concern because many Christians consider it a “death and rebirth into freemasonry” such as baptism, thereby making it a second baptism. As a Christian you are only supposed to go through one “death to the world, and rebirth”, which is our baptism.


St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. -Martin Luther


In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
-Nicene Creed


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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my father in law is a mason

they do nefarious things like give away coats to homeless folks in the winter

be afriad !!!!



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


I appreciate your opinions, and I appreciate the fact that you adhere strictly to your Christian beliefs. I think that is lacking in many Christian people.

I still disagree with you. We do not die and get reborn into Masonry, although we do act out the death of a former Mason, it is allegory and symbolism and commitment to one's ideals. It does not forgive us of our sins, nor promise us any reward in Heaven.

Also, we do not pray to a "generic" God. We pray to the "one, ever-living creator of the Universe." As you said, that may not seem significant, but what you call generic, I call semantics. To me, someone can call the Creator by any name, and it is still the same creator. Muhammed and Jesus worshipped the same creator by different names, and so do the Jews, and in my opinion so do the Hindus and Native Americans, and everyone else.

The big disconnect between me and Christians, and hardcore Christians and Masons is the steadfast requirement to accept that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father/Creator. This I do not believe. I also do not believe God is active in our lives. I believe God created us with a purpose, and laid out many clues, and offers up opportunities for self-growth and enlightenment, and even answers our prayers if we are willing to listen, but that is the end of the involvement. I don't believe in any kind of damnation or hell, although I believe if we refuse to evolve spiritually, we eventuallly run out of opportunities and cease to exist on any level. but that is just my belief, not Masonry.

Still, there would be nothing in Masonry that would conflict with your belief. You would be welcome to pray to Jesus, signoff in Jesus' name, and profess your life to Jesus, and that would not conflict with anything in Masonry, and in fact the majority of Masons I know have done exactly that.

My Lodge is about 99% Baptist, with 1 Jew, and a couple of murkier Deists like me, and some of them are just as steadfast in their beliefs as you are, but true to Masonry, they do not try to convert anyone to their beliefs, and they also do not dilute their own beliefs in any way. They are who they are, openly, and honestly, but not assertively nor offensively, and they respect others who act similarly, and anyone that cannot be respectful and exist in harmony does not belong in Masonry.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
Wrong group. Sorry, we stopped with all that months ago. It's all fuzzy slippers and white robes now.


Wrong group for you, but not for me. Let me in damnit!!! I love blood and diamonds and dark creepy forests. Seriously...



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I'm not god, and I'm not some high representative that speaks for all the Churches, so arguing these points with me is never going to achieve much. All I can do is give some perspective, hopefully a bit more enlightened then most other Christians, as to why the Churches disagree with their members joining the masons. So please keep this in mind.

If you are a Christian, and you choose to be a mason, then that is something between you and God. Personally being a mason was never important enough to me for it to ever be a moral dilemma on my part, and so I chose to favor the reasoning of men with religious understanding that dwarfs my own.

I don't know if you all know this or not, but many Churches will not allow Boyscout troops for similar reasons of “common prayer”.
 


Originally posted by network dude
Just to clear up your statement, Christianity as you describe it, is incompatible with masonry, not the other way around.

I never said it was the other way around. Freemasonry claims to be compatible with all religions, and in fact requires that you accept some god to be a member.

Originally posted by network dude
I suppose you stay away from large sporting events, like football games and baseball games and the like?

No. The way that you handle being stuck in a situation with a bunch of other people who are of a different faith, and are involved in any type of worship, is to just to politely stand there and be quiet. Some people will fold their hands and may even bow their heads, but they will not actually pray along.
 

Hey ML, glad to see you're still around after all these years. Your ears must have been ringing, eh?


Originally posted by Masonic Light
Some Christian sects, as well as some Islamic ones, are ultra-elitists, claiming that their own concept of God is correct, and everyone else's false.

No, ALL mainline Christian churches teach this. You can be polite to those of other faiths, but you are not supposed to acknowledge them as being equal to the same God. The only gray areas are with other “faiths of the book”, but as they reject Christ, most churches consider it bad to pray along with them as well.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I see this as extremely cultish and narrow-minded. Anyone who believes that he himself has a monopoly on religious truth is deluded, and such persons would not make good Masons anyway.

That's your opinion, and I respect that, but its not the view of anyone who follows any of the “faiths of the book”.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Freemasonry does not teach that one can attain salvation or anything else through personal actions. It simply teaches that people have a duty to do what is right.

Then what is the point of the “morality” plays? What is the “upright masonic man”? Etc...

Originally posted by Masonic Light
No, Gnostic Christianity has been considered heretical by Roman Catholicism and its offshoots (Protestant sects). But on the flipside, Gnostic Christians consider Roman Catholics and Protestants heretical.

I recommend that you go read my links above about “Against Heresies”. This was written by St Irenaeus BEFORE the formation of the Catholic Church or any of the Protestant Churches. He was the student of Polycarp, who was himself the student of John the Apostle. So his training was pretty close to “right from the mouth of Christ”, and already he was having to write a book in an attempt to stem the tide of other “outside” religious teaching from entering into Christian teaching. If you want to know the incompatibility between Gnosticism and true Christianity, I recommend reading his book.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
it wasn't the Gnostic sects of Christianity who imposed the sword on unbelievers.

Again, St Irenaeus wrote that book, and there was obviously a problem with Gnosticism, LONG BEFORE the Roman Catholic Church and their abuses of Christianity for their own ends.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:39 PM
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I would just like to post this paragraph i pulled from a local Masonic lodge near me:


FREEMASONRY is religious but not a religion. Prayer is an essential part of every Masonic ceremony. Its prayer addressed to God as the Great Architect of the Universe, are stated in language which cannot give offense to the follower of any particular religion. It is un-sectarian because it does not favor any sect as against another; it is not irreligious because it respects all religious creeds and believes in the truth in all of them; it is not anti-religion because it does not oppose who believe in God and a future existence; it is not a church because it does not prescribe any particular form of worship.

Freemasonry looked apon men of different complexions as equals and believes that God had created men equal only in the opportunity of believing in HIM and receiving from HIM his grace. HE has given all men an equal chance to live in peace with each other and to enjoy the wondrous Miracle of life.


So let me get this straight.

Freemasonry welcomes ALL religions, and all types of people. There is no worship or single "God" we all pray too, but instead a Universal Belief in a higher being.

So why is God mentioned as "HE"? Who is HE? God is Man? What if he is woman? Alien? Are we sexist now? If i worshipped Reptiles or Sea Creatures, i now have to go back to praying to a HE?

Seems fishy. Do i have to pay a $500 entrance fee?

Here is a picture of some Masons:



The guy in the top hat looks like he might have some NWO agenda's up his sleeve, but honestly......Freemasonry doesnt seem exciting at all. Wheres the action? What about REALLY changing the world, not just using it as a slogan, putting on fancy croch puches and praying to "HE". High Fructose Corn syrup is still in every food on the shelf and cancer/disease is running rampant throughout Earth. Changing the world? Ya rite....

WTF is going on here, i really hope some ATS Masons can put me in my place. I want to believe you guys are relevant and not just an after church book club.






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