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Call for proof of herbal health claims

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posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by hawkiye
 



How about you and government mind your own business and I'll decide whats right for me regarding my health care without you trying to force big pharma's poison on me. It's no bodies friggen business what I take into my body or if I want to see a witch doctor for health care! If your worried about herbal remedies here's a novel idea don't take them! But don't try and bring government force to bear to force your uninformed beliefs on me or anyone else!


You completely miss the point. This is not about the government telling you what you can or cannot do, it is about holding manufacturers in a particular industry to the same standards. The government forces chemical companies to place a warning label on cans of paint thinner that says: "WARNING! Not for internal use!" They cannot stop you from drinking it if you believe it would actually be good for you.


No it is you who misses the point completely. This is all about government telling me what I can and cannot do. There has never been a recorded death or even problem with herbal remedies yet conventional medical treatment is one of the leading causes of death and injury today! This is all about big brother protecting markets for their politically connected cronies Big Pharma. In fact you are a victim of big pharma and don't even know it. You have been medicated with all sorts of poisons and chemicals without your knowledge or consent. The entire population has been chemically lobotomized by all the chemicals and genetic modification in foods the water vaccines and medical treatments. So you robotically repeat the party line and call people like me crazy. Don't worry I don;t hold it against you I know its not your fault it's what you are programmed to do. No go take your soma dose citizen and get back to work....


See my other threads:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...




posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by wrdwzrd
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Anyone who claims that herbs do not help and there is no evidence that they do has NEVER used them


What a shame that claims that herbal remedies don't work are utterly irrelevant then.

Perhaps you could start a thread about it



posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

There has never been a recorded death or even problem with herbal remedies .....



The motto here is deny ignorance - not demonstrate it.

A 10 second search on google will find you cases of overdoses on herbal remedies and warnings from suppliers that it is entirely possible to overdose on them.



posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



This is all about government telling me what I can and cannot do.


Unless you are selling herbal concoctions by claiming that they have specific therapeutic effects, the government is not telling you what you can or cannot do in this case. The government tells you that cigarettes are poison, but they are happy to collect a tobacco tax from you if you smoke them anyway.



posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 09:35 PM
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''Without clarity as to the standards to be used, there is the potential for New Zealand's reputation to be harmed.''

well that shows a concern for human life


He said health products regulations in Australia and Canada were highly prescriptive about acceptable levels of evidence.

they are not on the bags of herbs I buy, they only muzzle the free speech and advertizing.


''I would strongly recommend that regulations in New Zealand are equally robust.''

Quotes from Boncho's post quoting the link in the OP

here then? just like canada?
well right from the horses mouth:



As part of its ongoing review, Health Canada considered other options than the regulatory one to be adopted in the proposed Schedule 705. The Advisory Panel on Herbal Medicines was established in May 1997 to advise on a framework for herbal remedies and is currently working on this issue.

B. Bill C-85/C-7/C-8, the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (CDSA)

This legislation aimed to consolidate and supplement the Narcotic Control Act and Parts III and IV of the Food and Drugs Act, as well as to harmonize Canada’s narcotic, controlled and restricted drug regulations with those of other countries. The legislation originated in the 34th Parliament as Bill C-85, the Psychoactive Substance Control Act, was introduced in the first session of the 35th Parliament as Bill C-7; and re-emerged as Bill C-8 in the second session of the 35th Parliament. This bill was passed in June 1996 and came into force in May 1997.

After arguments had been made by natural product producers, retailers and consumers, Bill C-7 was amended to remove the definition of a controlled substance as one producing a stimulant, depressant or hallucinogenic effect. These critics continue to find fault with the expanded regulatory authority under the legislation, however, arguing that it could be used to further restrict herbs.

According to Health Canada, the availability of herbs and herbal products is regulated under the statutory authority of the Food and Drugs Act, not under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. As noted earlier, however, some botanical preparations are already controlled and are specifically mentioned in schedules of the latter Act.

C. The UN Codex Alimentarius Commission

The UN Codex Alimentarius Commission aims to harmonize international food standards to protect consumers against health hazards and fraud; to ensure safe practices in the food trade; and to facilitate international trade in food and food products.

publications.gc.ca...



the against have posted quit a large pile of links in support of the reasons why NOT

where are these herbal claims that are so wild? may we see some links?

In Canada which Gluckman wants parity with, at my local Herb store the super qualified sales lady is bound to what she can say by the government..she is little help for advice let me tell you.
while a less qualified pharmacist is not.

ALL the Herb shoppers do there own due diligence
I have an EXTENSIVE library for just that purpose and I buy my herbs in plain plastic bags which only declare the CONTENTS and price

But we KNOW they are going to slide codex A on us because they have signed treaties that harmonize with other countries and that it is only a matter of time till they do harmonize


edit on 7-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-3-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by Danbones
 



where are these herbal claims that are so wild? may we see some links?




Liftoff® Energy
Drink
Energy Boost
Stay alert and focused*

Nature's Raw
Guarana Tea
Improve Focus
Reduce fatigue,
increase energy*

Rebuild Strength
Muscle Recovery
Build and enhance
muscle recovery*


products.herbalife.com...

That's just for starters. Note the asterix, by the way. Go to the webpage and read the fine print. If they themselves say it is not intended to diagnose, prevent or cure any disease, what are they really saying?



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 01:06 AM
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Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by hawkiye
 



This is all about government telling me what I can and cannot do.


Unless you are selling herbal concoctions by claiming that they have specific therapeutic effects, the government is not telling you what you can or cannot do in this case. The government tells you that cigarettes are poison, but they are happy to collect a tobacco tax from you if you smoke them anyway.


That's the problem they do have therapeutic effects proven over thousands of years of use and the governments will not allow you to say so because some claims may be false. Yeah gee the government never lie. They tell you all these poisons er ah drugs have therapeutic effects yet you can watch dozens of commercials on TV advertising for lawsuits for all the harm and deaths they cause. And even when they sell them on TV they then tell you all the nasty things it will do to you if you use it. These drugs and the industrial medical complex are one of the leading causes of injury and death in this country. Herbs have none of that!

Here's a novel idea why don't you stop trusting government liars and take responsibility for what you take into your body? If you don't want to do that fine however butt the hell out of my life I can decide for myself if an herb is good for me or not with no worries of severe injury or death like when the doctor prescribes the poison of the day and everyone thinks they will be fine... If I want to tell someone how an herb helped me in a therapeutic way that is nobodies business, I don't need it to go through some government BS political influenced study.

I cured my sons supposedly incurable asthma according to doctors when he was a just a baby with herbs rather then give him steroid breathing treatments the witch doctors prescribed for him which only treated his symptoms temporarily and would have harmed his lungs permanently. In some states I would have gotten a visit from CPS for doing that. Luckily I live in a state that is not that far gone yet.

PS Websites say it is not intended to diagnose cure etc precisely because big brother will come down on them and put them out of business if they do not.


edit on 8-3-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 01:12 AM
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I was in a chemist the other day for some painkillers and asked if the natural products were monitored on the same level as the chemically based products. He said that they are tested for impurities and any contents that might cause harm - they are not, however, tested to see if they actually perform as advertised. Totally unbelievable. Considering the prices, and the fact that the big natural companies are giants on the stock market, it seems that the companies have a free pass to print money by selling pills that more often than not give you an upset stomach and nothing else. Dry and crush some vegetable root, claim that it will perform a certain function, and sell it for $30+ a bottle. And nobody is going to test it thoroughly.... I should have bought shares in $%^^mores....



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by hawkiye

There has never been a recorded death or even problem with herbal remedies .....



The motto here is deny ignorance - not demonstrate it.

A 10 second search on google will find you cases of overdoses on herbal remedies and warnings from suppliers that it is entirely possible to overdose on them.


And that is the herbs fault? People eat to much and get constipated too so should we have warning labels on food too that eating to much can cause constipation and other complications... Sigh!

Please show us the death toll actually due to herbs as compared to the medical industrial complex?



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



That's the problem they do have therapeutic effects proven over thousands of years of use and the governments will not allow you to say so because some claims may be false.


Please construct a logical statement for once. The government will allow you to make claims if they are true. You do this by performing controlled, double blind experiments and publishing the results. This is why some traditional herbal remedies are allowed to be sold under names like "aspirin," If you perform these experiments and the remedy fails, the claim is false; it is a lie. What is so threatening about a government insisting that someone who is selling you something not lie about it? Would you rather be lied to?



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 






Absolutely - "natural" health products should be required to have as much truth in advertising as anything else.


Rubbish.. how do you expect herbal products to have the same level of scientific baking as pharmaceutical drugs that have the backing of billion dollar industries. If a herbal product has been been used traditionaly for an aliement do you expect it to have the same evidence as a manufactured drug...



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 06:56 AM
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Tell you what.. when doctors have to PROVE to me that the latest prescription that they write actually WORKS, then maybe I'll consider applying this "rule" to herbals.



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by Nana2
 



Tell you what.. when doctors have to PROVE to me that the latest prescription that they write actually WORKS, then maybe I'll consider applying this "rule" to herbals.


The doctors don't have to do that, the pharmaceutical companies have to inform the doctors of the medicine's effects and side effects, based on research that is independently verified. The doctor is, in turn, obliged to inform you of the odds for your recovery and potential drawbacks. If he or she does not, you can sue them for malpractice.



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 






Absolutely - "natural" health products should be required to have as much truth in advertising as anything else.


Rubbish.. how do you expect herbal products to have the same level of scientific baking as pharmaceutical drugs that have the backing of billion dollar industries.


Nope.


If a herbal product has been been used traditionaly for an aliement do you expect it to have the same evidence as a manufactured drug...


Nope - you should try to actually understand what was in the OP.

If something has been traditionally used for treating an ailment then what they have to do is state:

"The evidence that this product treats (the ailment) is that it has been traditionally used for that purpose." - or words to that effect.

Sorry to burst your preconceived bubble.



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by hawkiye

There has never been a recorded death or even problem with herbal remedies .....



The motto here is deny ignorance - not demonstrate it.

A 10 second search on google will find you cases of overdoses on herbal remedies and warnings from suppliers that it is entirely possible to overdose on them.


And that is the herbs fault? People eat to much and get constipated too so should we have warning labels on food too that eating to much can cause constipation and other complications... Sigh![/quoet]

And so what??
nothing is ever the "fault" of a chemical - it is ALWAYS the "fault" of someone who took too much, or prescribed to much, or used the wrong one - duh!!



Please show us the death toll actually due to herbs as compared to the medical industrial complex?


Ah - nice moving the goal posts.

Got caught telling a porky because you weer too lazy to do any actual research, and now you still want someone else to do the research for you.

Have a look here - whatstheharm.net...


What's the harm in herbal remedies?
Herbal remedies are everywhere these days, often promoted as safe alternatives to prescription medicines. However, many are not manufactured consistently and can have severe side effects on the body. Read more about herbal remedies

Here are 100,508 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.



edit on 8-3-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 





Sorry to burst your preconceived bubble.


Its ok i dont mind you bursting my bubble...



posted on Mar, 8 2012 @ 06:55 PM
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I tend to agree with the general idea expressed here, that what we are witnessing is simply yet one more attempt to squash competition and increase market share for the really big players under the guise of 'concern'.

Probably the best thing to do IMo would simply be to do what alot of sellers of herbs do in the U.S. and that is don't make any stated claims, people can do their own research on the net and view historically how different herbs have been used, and then use their own findings as an aid to making purchases.

I have to wonder too if this push in NZ for labelling is simply a back door way to say once you make any claims then the next step is control of sales.



posted on Mar, 9 2012 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
Originally posted by hawkiye


And so what??
nothing is ever the "fault" of a chemical - it is ALWAYS the "fault" of someone who took too much, or prescribed to much, or used the wrong one - duh!!



Please show us the death toll actually due to herbs as compared to the medical industrial complex?


Ah - nice moving the goal posts.

Got caught telling a porky because you weer too lazy to do any actual research, and now you still want someone else to do the research for you.

Have a look here - whatstheharm.net...


What's the harm in herbal remedies?
Herbal remedies are everywhere these days, often promoted as safe alternatives to prescription medicines. However, many are not manufactured consistently and can have severe side effects on the body. Read more about herbal remedies

Here are 100,508 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.



edit on 8-3-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)


Sigh... You're a real piece of work! Of course you would post tripe like this. None of the deaths on that page were caused by herbs they were caused by people being stupid. However medications and medical treatments are one of the leading direct causes of death.


Prescription drugs [directly] kill some 200,000 Americans every year. Will that number go up, now that most clinical trials are conducted overseas
www.vanityfair.com...

Here try these stats on for size:


A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million.1...

Condition
10-Year Deaths

Adverse Drug Reaction 1.06 million (1)
Medical error 0.98 million (6)
Bedsores 1.15 million (7,8)
Nosocomial Infection 0.88 million (9,10)
Malnutrition 1.09 million (11)
Outpatients 1.99 million (12, 112)
Unnecessary Procedures 371,360 (3,13)
Surgery-related 320,000 (85)
Total 7,841,360
www.whale.to...

Where is the public outcry? Why isn't big brother cracking down on this? Yet idiots here are arguing that herbs are dangerous how pathetically laughable!!!

/argument!



edit on 9-3-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 9 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye


No it is you who misses the point completely. This is all about government telling me what I can and cannot do.

 


Do you live in New Zealand?

Personally, I take a few different supplements, the ones I take I did research on, even though my government does not allow false claims on the bottles, I still wanted to know more than what was on there. Toxicity should be listed IMO.




There has never been a recorded death or even problem with herbal remedies yet conventional medical treatment is one of the leading causes of death and injury today!


News to some people.


Steve Bechler, a pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles, died of complications from heatstroke following a spring training workout on February 17, 2003. The medical examiner found that ephedra toxicity played a "significant role" in Bechler's sudden death.[36]





This is all about big brother protecting markets for their politically connected cronies Big Pharma. In fact you are a victim of big pharma and don't even know it.


Nope. Canada has regulations on its natural remedy industry, and it's to protect consumers. While Health Canada is not free from controversy, neither are the fly by night operations trying to market the latest herbal trends.



posted on Mar, 9 2012 @ 12:47 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


You chopped the article you linked:

The bulk of what you posted was related to this:


Within Health Canada, responsibility for these products crosses the boundaries between the directorate responsible for food safety and the directorate responsible for drug protection. Some products, such as cannabis and khat, are controlled substances pursuant to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, where different restrictions and regulations apply.


And this is Canada's opinion on the WHO:


The herbal community is concerned that Canada will yield to international trade pressure but Health Canada stresses that the World Trade Organization does not have the authority to require countries to adopt and enforce a Codex finding.




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