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What do you think of Hedonism? It seems the most logical.

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posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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Pleasure = Good
Pain = Bad

is this the most basic human instincts? What can be more true than this?

If something is making you feel Pain, then it is Bad, therefore do what you can to get away from it. You can change your thinking into something more Pleasurable (Positive Thinking), or you can just get away.

If something is making you feel Pleasure, then it is Good. Therefore do what you want. Doing what you want is also what happens NATURALLY if you don't control yourself. It is pure INSTINCT.

A good life is not measured in length, it is measured in Pleasurable moments.


However, people like to go to the extremes asking:

What about addiction or what if causing other people Pain brings you happiness...

Well, if a person has an addiction and the addiction is making them happy and they don't want to quit, that is THEIR choice, the purpose of life is joy. If a person has and addiction and doesn't want it and having it makes them feel BAD (Pain) then that is also their choice to get away from it.

As for causing other people Pain (bad) that is unavoidable isnt' it? Can you truly spend on your head in enough ways to make the entire world happy? Are you living your life for YOU or are you letting others control you to live your life for them?

The purpose of life is PLEASURE therefore, we should be focus on living in the way that'll give us most pleasure. That is: being independent, thinking positive, doing what makes us happy.

If we INTEND to hurt others then that is evil because it causes unnecessary Pain (bad)

Anyway, what do you think of this?
edit on 6-3-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Very interesting, and simple way to put life.

Pleasure = Good
Pain = Bad

Very simple!

However, it becomes a bit more complicated when you come across the people that Pleasure for them equals torturing others, being the dictator, raping, stealing from and killing others etc etc.

In a perfect world it would be that simple, but people are so complicated.

I am glad to see you think like me though, things are ever so simple to people like you and I, hehe.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Life would be awesome if it were that simple.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by GreenEyedVixen
reply to post by arpgme
 


Very interesting, and simple way to put life.

Pleasure = Good
Pain = Bad

Very simple!

However, it becomes a bit more complicated when you come across the people that Pleasure for them equals torturing others, being the dictator, raping, stealing from and killing others etc etc.


It doesn't become more complicated the same rules apply.

When people are uncomfortable with raping, torturing, stealing, and killing, they form a resistance to it (police) so that THEY can feel more secure (=happy).

Then when laws are made, if they don't care they'll still do what they want and break laws for their happiness, and the ones who don't are still seeking their happiness because they'll rather not risk it by breaking the law...

See no matter what it still comes down to the happiness thing.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by calnorak
Life would be awesome if it were that simple.


How is life not that simple?



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Also, dearest friend,

I believe that living life for yourself and for others come hand in hand, in my eyes atleast.
When I make the others around me happy, my friends, my family, etc...
When I provide for them, do nice gestures for them and such it warms my own heart to see them smile and be joyous.
In turn, out of their love for me, they shall provide and do nice gestures for me which again, in turn makes me happy.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 04:59 PM
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so is it good or bad to kill for protection or self defence of loved ones?

causing pain seems bad, maybe its necessary so its good?

personally i unfortunately believe things cannot be boiled down to be so simple



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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Pleasure equals good
Pain equals bad
I get your meaning and am glad you added not harming others
Yet pain is for a reason - it tells us something is wrong - mentally or physically and draws our attention to the problem - However pain killers are invaluable also but do not cure causes only symptoms
Some take pleasure in another's pain also
But I get your gist that we should find what fulfills us and avoid that which brings misery etc



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by GreenEyedVixen
reply to post by arpgme
 


Also, dearest friend,

I believe that living life for yourself and for others come hand in hand, in my eyes atleast.
When I make the others around me happy, my friends, my family, etc...
When I provide for them, do nice gestures for them and such it warms my own heart to see them smile and be joyous.
In turn, out of their love for me, they shall provide and do nice gestures for me which again, in turn makes me happy.


That's fine, if that's what makes you happy, but that can be used against you.

You do things to make others happy and in turn they do things to make you happy, but if they want to control you now it would be easy to do so. They can applaud you when you do what THEY want and then disapprove and criticize you when you do what THEY don't want.

I think it is better to do things for people because you WANT to, because that's what makes you happy, not in other to gain their conditional "applauds". But, this is just my experience and what I found help me to feel more free.


Originally posted by trust_no_one
so is it good or bad to kill for protection or self defence of loved ones?


No "good" or "bad", it is up to the person to follow their happiness or not. Does it bring more happiness to kill in self defense and continue living or not kill but to be killed by the attacker.


Originally posted by trust_no_one
causing pain seems bad, maybe its necessary so its good?


Pain is necessary in the sense that it warns you of something you don't like, but it is just a sign to help you go towards the Good/Happiness.


Originally posted by trust_no_one
personally i unfortunately believe things cannot be boiled down to be so simple


Why not?


In general I guess it really comes down to this:

Everyone is ALREADY following their happiness to some extent, but if they don't judge themselves and just allow themselves to be as they are and follow their HIGHEST happiness, then they'll be as HAPPY as possible, because once you have the happiness, once you are thinking the happy thoughts and doing whatever makes you happy, other people's approval becomes irrelevant.


edit on 6-3-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-3-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-3-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


You are right, indeed :]

However in such a simple, perfect world...


I would still believe that if everyone lived to please others then that'd leave others pleasing you in turn. You live for yourself through the love of those around you. You get to do the things and receive the things that bring you joy because you've done it for others, and because those others wish to see you smile.

I stand by my opinion, but I do not dismiss yours either as it is very true in retrospect. Makes me think a lot.

Thank you for this thread!



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by GreenEyedVixen
 


I guess I just don't understand why each person should depend on another for their happiness, when they can be independent, self-fulfilled, and having their own happiness? If the person starts to not like you or they don't approve of you they can just shut you off, whereas when you have your own happiness you help others because you actually WANT to, it is actually sincere, not doing it to get something in return...



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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Life is not that simple. You have to look at all the aspects.

There are many different causes and reasons why we feel pain. They are not all "bad".

First, referring to the physical sense of pain. Pain itself, the fact that we feel it, is actually a good thing. It is how the human body knows that is being harmed and what causes us to protect ourselves. If we didn't feel pain we might get burned and not know it and continue to burn till we lost function. We might break a bone and keep going and it will never heal. We might cut ourselves all the way through before we realize what happened.

Pleasure from the sense of feeling is felt in the same that pain is. They are both physical reactions to the stimulus of nerves in our skin and body. There is a large degree of individual thresholds for pain and some people are proud of and also derive pleasure from testing those thresholds. Piercing and body art are examples of those.

The body also feels physical pain after working out or stretching, running long distances. But in the long term sense these are positive for the person and their body in most cases. There is a momentary feeling of pain but the over all health and well being of that person improves.

Then there is the aspects of emotional pain. Which is very complicated and unique to each individual and circumstances. Many people think emotional pain in some ways can hurt worse than physical pain. Something that cause you emotional pain at one point in life can be a different emotion at a different point.

There are many different aspects of the human psyche that can be both good and bad depending on the situation. It is never just black and white. The devil is in the details and the shades of grey are important factors.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by ThirdRock69
 


I know, I know. This philosophy is true but there is something "off" about it. Thanks for shedding more light in this situation...

I guess "Pain/Bad" is more like a warning sign than absolute evil...



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Well, I suppose this is where our opinions begin to separate, hehe :]

I believe we rely on each other for happiness because we are by nature, social creatures.
We are put here with others for a reason, we are not alone. We are one and we should treat each and everyone as if they were ourselves.

So in essence, if decisions were to be made, they would be made by the needs of the many or all, not by the needs of the one because we are not just one vessel, we are many vessels who in the end only wish to achieve the same goals.

Love, security and prosperity.

Yes?

Why not live as one, helping one another to reach these desired goals?

When we are separate and live for only ourselves only some of us reach these goals, which brings upon sadness.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by GreenEyedVixen
 


Ah, you have a major point there. We are social creatures and that's why we do it (live for the whole instead of the self). Maybe it is this "individualistic" idea that is the unnatural one.

You pointed out a flaw in this philosophy and I'm happy, now I can work with a new one that will be closer to the truth. I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong because I know a perfect answer (philosophy) is out there.

If we (the universe - existence) are all connected in some way, then there should likewise be an all connective law.

I also have a philosophy I came up with on my own which I wish to discuss but I can't discuss it on this thread since this one is dedicated to discussions of Hedonism.



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


the simple fact is that hedonism is a selfish goal , in that only the hedonist`s perceptions are valid

what happens to other people is irrelevent [ to hedonists ] , if the hedonist derives pleasure from the act

thus a sadist can be a hedonist - dreiving pleasure from the pain of others

simples



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


In no way will I say you are wrong and you shouldn't either, silly

Whatever you feel in your heart is the right way.


However, if I have swayed your opinion and you now feel in your heart that this is right then that is great also.

I am grateful for this discussion today. It made me think a lot! Great topic!



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by ignorant_ape
 


Yes! I think you have simplified my post earlier. That is the exact point I was trying to convey myself.

Thank you for this :]



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by GreenEyedVixen
 


Ah, now another question just crossed my mind. We are social animals and are hard-wired to think of the others but I wonder how non-social animals live, maybe hedonism is correct for them?



posted on Mar, 6 2012 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


When it comes to animals, I am usually at a loss on this subject.

But I will speculate, yes, that Hedonism would apply to the animals because they are not aware of their impact on the enivironment or how their actions affects others.

For example, the Lioness kills the Gazelle for food to provide for her own pride.
Little does she know, that may have been the only nearby food source for another starving Lion's pride. Would she share with another pride for the needs of the many, not just the few? No, she would not because top predator survives in the animal kingdom.
Also - she is unaware that the Gazelle she just killed for the benefit of her own pride was possibly mother to baby Gazelles who are now orphaned and lost without the guidance of their mother.

This is what is *supposed* to set us apart from the rest of the animals, although a lot of times we forget this.


Also, I would love to hear your philosophy in full, maybe start another thread? I will look for it if so.
edit on 6-3-2012 by GreenEyedVixen because: (no reason given)



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