The Quran is the verbatim word of ...

Originally posted by Deetermined
Here's another good link on the "Sura Challenge".

"Surah-like-it challenge has been met & Quran not protected against tampering"

The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met when some 530 years ago the first scriptures of Sikhism 'appeared' in muslim-ruled/influenced Punjab territory and proved to be special enough to engage people (both muslims and hindus, who thus became ex-muslims and ex-hindus) in declaring them Divinely Inspired and thus giving rise to a new religion that in the past 500+ years have attracted some 22 million pious believers.

The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met yet another time when in the mid-nineteenth century the first scriptures leading to the modern Bahaï faith 'appeared' in muslim-ruled Persia. Again these scriptures were considered Divinely Inspired by some muslims (who thus became ex-muslims) and proved special enough to form the basis of yet another new post-islam religion that has now some 5 million pious followers.

Thus the quranic sura-like-it challenge has been met at least two times in the past 1400 years, giving rise to two new post-islam religions, each with their own sacred scriptures, considered Divinely Inspired (and apparently 'more special' than the Quran) by its followers. (However, no muslim will and can ever admit the quranic challenge has been met, for when he does that he no longer is a muslim but an apostate.... And the fact that both Sikhs and Bahaï's at times have been/are being persecuted (and sometimes even killed) by muslims says enough... )

mukto-mona.com...

Interesting. Why did these muslims leave their own religion to embrace a new one. Why would people believe that these new books are the inspired word of God.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by 0thetrooth0

 

I found this one, but I don't know if it's authored by the same person mentioned in the link I provided or not.

www.suralikeit.com...

If only we could understand classical Arabic...

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
1. There are various institutions that offer classes to learn quranic arabic. I think most if not all the people that take the classes are muslims. After these muslims go from not knowing arabic to learning arabic and being able to read quran in its original language they still remain muslim. Why do you think this is so? If we believe or know quran is not word of god, why do these people after being able to read their holy book in classical arabic, why do they still remain muslims? Do they not see the barbaric nonsense in the book if any?

2. Why do you think that muslim sheiks and imams would tell people to learn quranic arabic, if they know that quran is not the word of God? arent they afraid that when they learn the language that people will leave Islam? or are these muslim leaders holding all the cards and know quran is indeed word of god?

3. Either muslims are ignorant, or were ignorant . Either this book is word of god or its not. How can some people mistake a barbaric book with the verbatim word of god? OR how can some people mistake the word of the creator of the heavens and the earth with a barbaric book?

4. The quran has a challenge test, saying that if no one can produce a surah like it, then they should accept it as it being the word of god and be muslim, what do you think this challenge means? What do you think it consists of?

5. The Quran asks mankind, you gota keep in mind that muslims believe it is God speaking here, God asks, did you come out of nothing or did you create yourself? How would you answer this.

6. Many muslims talk about the various miracles in quran, like angels and devils are mentioned the same amount of time, quran has science facts unknown at that time and linguistic miracles, is this all one big lie?

Historical facts prove that Mohammed did not speak in Arabic, rather, Syriac Aramaic. The written Arabic came two hundred years after Mohammed. The Quran has never been the verbatim words, not even of Mohammed. Uthman actually burned the Quran, and then had to remake new verses.

For those people unaware of what the Quran and the Hadiths say, should be warned it is not in chronological order and the persons in the Torah are out of order.

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by 0thetrooth0

 

I found this one, but I don't know if it's authored by the same person mentioned in the link I provided or not.

www.suralikeit.com...

If only we could understand classical Arabic...

Classical Arabic came two hundred years after Mohammed. He spoke Syriac Aramaic. The Quran actually borrows many words from Hebrew, because the written form of Arabic was unknown in the time of Mohammed.

Sahih International

Surah 9 Ayat 30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them].

The word used for Ezra is Uzair. Not one single Jew has ever said that Ezra is a messiah, the word used is the same for both examples, so if we take the consistency of words, we know the Arabic writer has inserted this. And in the Quran, the commentator uses brackets to enforce the idea of whom he wants you to think is the person, not the person originally written.

Surah 17 Ayat 57
... call upon [like 'Iesa (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary), 'Uzair (Ezra), angel, etc.] desire (for themselves) means of access to their ... of them should be the nearest and they ['Iesa (Jesus), 'Uzair (Ezra), angels, etc.] hope for His Mercy and fear His Torment.

Notice in the second, which is Muhsin Khan, the commentator has inserted brackets, that means they are placing within the Quran what they want the reader to assume is there. This usually occurs during an abrogation.

It is too bad the writers of the Quran, which is not Mohammed, but Uthman and Abu Bakr and then Ali, were not aware of who Ezra was in the Torah.

If you really want to get an idea of what Mohammed was like, read the Hadiths. But Muslims will tell you that the Hadiths were forged by the other side, and yet every Muslim scholar will tell you that you must read the Hadiths to understand the Quran. The Hadiths are narratives of the life of Mohammed and when a Muslim is confronted with an Hadith, they ask you from what book, then tell you they don't accept that Hadith, and yet official Qurans printed and published by official sources, such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, contain Hadiths.

I was recently told by muslims that the Quran never specifically said that Mohammed said to place crescent moons on the mosques, and yet the Quran does have a verse in which he orders the building of a mosque in Medinah, which still stands to this day, and the mosque has four minarets and six domes and on top of every one of them, a crescent moon is present.

The Quran also say's it's ok for an adult to have sex with a child as long as it's sodomy. Great book you got there

reply to post by ThoughtIsMadness

Organized religion is just brainwashing so that you go with the flow and feel a sense of belonging, even though every single person really has no idea what the truth actually is. So to say any book is the absolute word of god is a falsehood.

Beautifully put. Thank you. I'm convinced it's a personal and unique journey. Look to the original sources, and dismiss any 'modern' interpretation, and make up your mind for yourself. I just don't see any other way to get to the 'Truth'; and probably we won't in any case.
"[It] passeth understanding".

Originally posted by alkesh
The Quran also say's it's ok for an adult to have sex with a child as long as it's sodomy. Great book you got there

Im pretty sure thats not true,

Mind if I ask where you heard this?

Being honest though it wouldnt surprise me, I just found out today its an accepted practice for Rabbis to suck on the genitals of babies after circumcision

It makes me sick what people can justify in the name of religion

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by 0thetrooth0

 

I found this one, but I don't know if it's authored by the same person mentioned in the link I provided or not.

www.suralikeit.com...

If only we could understand classical Arabic...

Classical Arabic came two hundred years after Mohammed. He spoke Syriac Aramaic. The Quran actually borrows many words from Hebrew, because the written form of Arabic was unknown in the time of Mohammed.

Sahih International

Surah 9 Ayat 30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them].

The word used for Ezra is Uzair. Not one single Jew has ever said that Ezra is a messiah, the word used is the same for both examples, so if we take the consistency of words, we know the Arabic writer has inserted this. And in the Quran, the commentator uses brackets to enforce the idea of whom he wants you to think is the person, not the person originally written.

Surah 17 Ayat 57
... call upon [like 'Iesa (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary), 'Uzair (Ezra), angel, etc.] desire (for themselves) means of access to their ... of them should be the nearest and they ['Iesa (Jesus), 'Uzair (Ezra), angels, etc.] hope for His Mercy and fear His Torment.

Notice in the second, which is Muhsin Khan, the commentator has inserted brackets, that means they are placing within the Quran what they want the reader to assume is there. This usually occurs during an abrogation.

It is too bad the writers of the Quran, which is not Mohammed, but Uthman and Abu Bakr and then Ali, were not aware of who Ezra was in the Torah.

If you really want to get an idea of what Mohammed was like, read the Hadiths. But Muslims will tell you that the Hadiths were forged by the other side, and yet every Muslim scholar will tell you that you must read the Hadiths to understand the Quran. The Hadiths are narratives of the life of Mohammed and when a Muslim is confronted with an Hadith, they ask you from what book, then tell you they don't accept that Hadith, and yet official Qurans printed and published by official sources, such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, contain Hadiths.

I was recently told by muslims that the Quran never specifically said that Mohammed said to place crescent moons on the mosques, and yet the Quran does have a verse in which he orders the building of a mosque in Medinah, which still stands to this day, and the mosque has four minarets and six domes and on top of every one of them, a crescent moon is present.

I heard the Quran has varies languages within in. Do you speak classical or some type of arabic yourself?
. I think the purpose for the crescent moon has something to do with the moon god and or lunar calendar. Some muslims say that the brackets are to help the reader better understand what is being read.

Originally posted by alkesh
The Quran also say's it's ok for an adult to have sex with a child as long as it's sodomy. Great book you got there

I think children in the past, especially girls, were more matured physically and mentally. Or perhaps thats what were told in order to justify a 53 man with a 9 year old girl?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by alkesh
The Quran also say's it's ok for an adult to have sex with a child as long as it's sodomy. Great book you got there

Im pretty sure thats not true,

Mind if I ask where you heard this?

Being honest though it wouldnt surprise me, I just found out today its an accepted practice for Rabbis to suck on the genitals of babies after circumcision

It makes me sick what people can justify in the name of religion

The genital thing is disturbing, thats some mest up stuff, y do they do that though

Some muslims or all believe an angel will curse a woman if she doesnt go to "bed" when her husband tells her. Some say this hadith though was made up by some horny desert man. I dont understand why there isnt some hadith that says an angel will curse the man if he doesnt go to bed when wife needs him.

For you too fully understand about the Quran ! This is must see !!

Time:1hr32min04s

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

I am a bit busy I will explain next time

@Others
merapakistan.freevar.com...
Most impressive "miracle"/miracle I saw.

I've seen more impressive stuff. By the way, the word scientific is mispelled so that link loses some credubility. I've been to a Marian apparition where there are a variety of unexplained/supernatural photos. Some of them is some camera effect, but the others didnt have a rational explanation. Maybe on that site they use some advanced technology or magic. Or it is indeed Virgin Mary, Jesus etc.

Well actually I don't consider seeing "images" to be that impressive,I mean how do you know if it is not made up by some other unknown sources,there are too many supernatural sightings that we can't be sure it is really the person or someone shapeshifted etc. (@divine beings,if they are indeed you ,please forgive me).Preplanning a certain verse in a certain language that could be arranged and can be found in a normal human being imo is more impressive YMMV,unless their claim is a hoax,another problem is I don;t know how is that verse written in arabic ,is it really like the picture or is it a vague resemblance(which could turn out to be a coincidence but I doubt it)

And it is not only found in that site but others as well.

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

Some of the photos my family took, and others they showed me immediately when they took the picture right on the spot after it had happened. Why did you say your not a muslim, but you said Quran is not of human origin, what do you mean by this?

Ok,after listening to NWO conspiracy things I got more interested in Islam ,the more research I do,the more I am convinced by Islam,but there are some problems for me to totally believe it ,because some of the things in Islam I felt rather uncomfortable(rather desensitized right now though haha) and converting to Islam is not an easy decision,people around you might get curious and ask you a lot of questions among other things,basically Islam somewhat resonates with me,but I am scared of it.

Last time I kinda believe in buddhism,most of the things make sense to me,because of it's foundation more on philosophy than worshipping which I think has a higher chance of being the truth.For example: life in heaven and hell being impermanent sounds logical to me since nothing material lasts forever. And then when I found out more about Islam ,I found out Islam might be the truth.So isn;t that means there are chances of something I overlooked even after you found something that resonates with you??Since there might be difficulties in converting,why not do more research on it and related topics???Just to confirm the reality of things and not simply believe in one thing and commit yourself totally no matter just because you think it is too likely to be the truth as in "too easy" or "too difficult" or "too miraculous" for you.

In my search I came to doubt and question most of the supernatural things I heard or see(IRL or on the net).There is one time I stumble on the word "yaldabaoth" and then I became more interested in Gnosticism,I am like "hey ,wait a second,if G-d is omnipotent why he could be wrathful???" .In Buddhism,there are 3 poisons Greed,Hatred and Delusion, My interest in Islam waned a little,but I constantly try to desensitize myself to the possibility of Islam being real for fear that if it is real I might have lack some courage to convert to it. One day I google something about related to Islam G-d's "wrath",and it seems to suggests that well He does not get angry like ordinary human beings ,from what I understand it seems to suggest that it means more chance of that particular person getting punished instead of Him literally getting annoyed and angry.This brings me to mind that like Buddhism ,Islam seem to have a tendency of being hard to disprove ,no matter real or false,even when I read ant-Is

lam arguments they don;t sound very convincing to me.This is a similarity I found between Islam and Buddhism.

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


Interesting! I just finished up that book The Fifth Gospel by Haissnan and Levi; it claims that when Christ went to Kashmir after surviving the crucifixion that his devotees there (who knew him as Isa) started following "Islam"....while he was alive...I need to check further into that, though.

I've also read hints that Jesus himself spoke of the coming of Mohammed (unconfirmed, I just picked it up somewhere nebulous).

I don't know enough about Islam yet, but I've looked at a few of their websites, and spoken with a couple of members here who follow it.

I really dislike the disinformation about it that the Extremists (terrorists) have brought to light...I knew nothing much at all about it before 9/11/01 and the aftermath. Not sure Sharia law is to my taste, nor the female suppression, though.

I know what you mean about being "scared" of it.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by QuantumSeeker

 

Interesting! I just finished up that book The Fifth Gospel by Haissnan and Levi; it claims that when Christ went to Kashmir after surviving the crucifixion that his devotees there (who knew him as Isa) started following "Islam"....while he was alive...I need to check further into that, though.

I've also read hints that Jesus himself spoke of the coming of Mohammed (unconfirmed, I just picked it up somewhere nebulous).

I don't know enough about Islam yet, but I've looked at a few of their websites, and spoken with a couple of members here who follow it.

I really dislike the disinformation about it that the Extremists (terrorists) have brought to light...I knew nothing much at all about it before 9/11/01 and the aftermath. Not sure Sharia law is to my taste, nor the female suppression, though.

I know what you mean about being "scared" of it.

edit on 7-3-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Wait,but isn;t Jesus passed away(crucifixion or otherwise) by the time Muhammad's Islam begins??Then how does his devotees at Kashmir "started following "Islam"....while he was alive"???Unless you mean Jesus is still alive at that time somehow?(which is not completely impossible)
I read from somewhere something along the lines of "Glad tidings to Ahmad" which is claimed to be a hebrew (or jewish or something like) translation of Muhammad.And there is that argument about the word "Paracletos" ,
being argued whether does it mean Muhammad.

Maybe all these holy books will come in handy one day, like when the solar flares disturb our infrastructures; we could burn them to stay warm. That way they would be fulfilling an actual, bona fide need-it-to-survive kind of need, rather than throwing these books into the giant void created by pursuing fantasies instead of developing a real and meaningful connection to the Earth and the creatures that live on it. While folks are wasting time praying five times a day certain others are out there cleaning up trash and feeding hungry children. Who is really making the Earth a better place? Those who love all life equally or those that pick and choose groups and species to be favored by 'god?' Women are not property. Animals are not property. The mysterious energy which drives the universe favors no beast, human or otherwise.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by QuantumSeeker

 

Interesting! I just finished up that book The Fifth Gospel by Haissnan and Levi; it claims that when Christ went to Kashmir after surviving the crucifixion that his devotees there (who knew him as Isa) started following "Islam"....while he was alive...I need to check further into that, though.

I've also read hints that Jesus himself spoke of the coming of Mohammed (unconfirmed, I just picked it up somewhere nebulous).

I don't know enough about Islam yet, but I've looked at a few of their websites, and spoken with a couple of members here who follow it.

I really dislike the disinformation about it that the Extremists (terrorists) have brought to light...I knew nothing much at all about it before 9/11/01 and the aftermath. Not sure Sharia law is to my taste, nor the female suppression, though.

I know what you mean about being "scared" of it.

edit on 7-3-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Muslims say that Jesus speaks of the coming of Muhammad, muslims think its Muhammad while Christians think its the Holy Spirit.

Terrorists and the media give a bad name to Islam, they wish to discredit Islam. Why, i dont know.

There is no female suppresion in Islam, you have to look more deep into it. Muslims in Iraq and around there are not practicing the true Islam.

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


wen i got into the nwo conspiracy the seires of video that woke me up was from islam, so i knew islam was the truth, also cuz of the whole one eyed dajjjal that can realy get 2 u, i dont havea problem wit hthe majority of islam i jus want to be sure if Quran is or is not word of God.
the people that have it hard to convert to islam are women because they have to wear hijab, if your a male no one will know ur muslim, jus pray in private and know will ever know, and also if u believe islam is the truth and udont follow it then b prepared to go 2 place where it is made up of men and stones... if something is the truth and u know it is u have 2 follow it no matter what

its not about disproving chris or islam its about u gota prove its the truth

u shudent be muslim because u or other people cant disprove islam u ought to be muslim because u and other people can prove its the truth

I've been handed anti feminist writings by Christians, and while this philosophy may not be commanded by the texts, this practice exists nonetheless. This isn't difficult to believe considering that institutionalized religion is designed specifically for manipulating people's behavior. It's a funny trick that; tricking folks into believing they must behave accordingly lest they be doomed to eternal hell and damnation. In reality it's akin to a sex slave club, certain Mormons do it and it certainly seems that many Muslims do it. Let the ladies show off their lovely locks of hair if that's what they want!

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
reply to post by QuantumSeeker

 

wen i got into the nwo conspiracy the seires of video that woke me up was from islam, so i knew islam was the truth, also cuz of the whole one eyed dajjjal that can realy get 2 u, i dont havea problem wit hthe majority of islam i jus want to be sure if Quran is or is not word of God.
the people that have it hard to convert to islam are women because they have to wear hijab, if your a male no one will know ur muslim, jus pray in private and know will ever know, and also if u believe islam is the truth and udont follow it then b prepared to go 2 place where it is made up of men and stones... if something is the truth and u know it is u have 2 follow it no matter what

its not about disproving chris or islam its about u gota prove its the truth

u shudent be muslim because u or other people cant disprove islam u ought to be muslim because u and other people can prove its the truth

I have basically 4 theories:
-Continuation of other world religions :Baha'i,Mission of Maitreya
-Only One God and this is the final religion:Islam
-Existence/Absence of God is not central to salvation:Buddhism
-There is another ultimate God: (Gnosticism etc.)

I just sometimes can't really grasp the idea of disbelievers ending up in jahanam,I don;t know it sounds a bit too serious and overwhelming for not believing,it is not something as obvious as other common sins where every sane human being can more or less agree too.I mean if the Islam G-d really is not affected by what we do,I don;t understand why we must worship Him 5 times a day .There are also certain evidences that suggest(not confirm ) reincarnation actually does exists ,isn;t that runs contrary to what Islam preached(the state of barzakh)???I heard when a child dies,he/she goes to jannah,but I feel that their lifespans are too short to decide where will they go after they passed away.

And about nwo,before you heard of nwo,you probably won't even thought of it's potential existence ,what if there is actually a conspiracy behind a conspiracy???I mean what feels right right now ,we might not feel it is right a few years later.That being said I think Islam is one of the most likely religion to be real.But I feel I might have missed something in my research for truth,just like last time I almost automatically consider Buddhism to be true because I think (abrahamic) G-d cannot be real because I think omnipotence is impossible(I used to think that way because I don't think math could be changed).

Peace~~

(@G-d Sorry if I actually misunderstood you)