the author of Babylon Mystery changed his mind....

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We don't worship Mary at all, her father wasn't God, Jesus' was.

I never said you worship Mary.... but your beliefs about Jesus being God literally literally makes Mary the mother of divinity... which is as absurd as Catholics calling her queen of heaven

Secondly...your beliefs about Jesus being God implies that God, was born from His own creation (the human species)... as Jesus.

Thirdly, your beliefs about Jesus being God places Christianity in the same league as Hinduism which also has ideas of man-gods and gods becoming men.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Do a little research on ancient religions before you open your mouth about who is having a faith crisis and wondering about their education sir.

I am doing research on ancient religions, RIGHT NOW, and have been off and on for decades, "sir." (which you would know if you actually paid attention to what frequenters of this forum post, rather than your own warped version!)

On my shelf sit encyclopedias of Gods, or World Mythology, of Greek and Roman pantheons, of studies of ancient religions like Celtic Shamanism, Tibetan Buddhism, Native American shamanism, the Abrahamic religions, the Gnostic texts, Egyptian stories, and books from every class of mythology/worship that we know of. At the moment, I am about 1.5 chapters into reading a fun tome called The Evolution of God which starts in the earliest prehistoric times. Author is Robert Wright.
Did you know who the Chuckchee were? And how they dealt with unruly winds? No?

You have been corrected numerous times by Catholics on what Catholics think and do, and you still persist in your misleading assertions.

It was I who started the hated Christmas HOAX thread, remember that one?! That's why I suspect your faith isn't on straight. You condemn some sects of your own general faith (Christianity) by pointing out their pagan-linked traditions, yet you also don't listen to what they themselves are telling you. And you are bashing people who are very much aware of many ancient styles of worship and in the process of learning more about them, saying that they shouldn't "open their mouths."

Do you know who the Essenes were, dude? I don't have a strong enough faith for it to be in crisis. I am a learner, an inquisitive student, and I don't just "take anyone's word for" what I can find out for myself. And if I can't find out for myself, (not being fluent in hieroglyphics, Aramaic, Hebrew, or Assyrian), I will seek information from those who do have the ability to "translate" with some credibility.

I'll open my mouth whenever I like, thanks. Pushy much?
What is it you come here for, lonewolf? To proselytize? To convert? To condemn? To rant? To convince yourself?
No need to answer, that's none of my business, but you might think about how you'd answer if God asked you.
Your avatar alone gives some indication of your inner strife.

Oh, and EDIT TO ADD: I am a baptized and confirmed member of the original Church of England (protestant), but no longer practicing. So I was brought up with it....some call it "Catholic lite".

They also worship the "Trinity", and while the trinity itself as a sort of polytheism is certainly a carry-over from the ancient religions (I never disputed that!), it does not include "Mary" as part of that Trinity. So there.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

They worship the "Queen of Heaven" whom they say is Mary. Mary who is supposed to be God's wife, and His mother, because christians believe Jesus is the physical incarnation of God.

The only difference between you and catholics is that YOU don't worship Mary directly...

otherwise, you have turned Mary into the mother of God... since you believe that Jesus was God who became a man...and was born of Mary.

edit on 7-3-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

We do not worship Mary. She was an apostle, nothing more and she didn't ascend, she is dead in the ground and will remain dead until the resurrection. Learn the difference between protestant and catholic plox.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Please re-read my original post in this thread.
I clearly said you, as a non-catholic DON'T worship Mary.

The only difference between you and catholics is that YOU don't worship Mary directly...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Do you even read what I post?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

She was an apostle, nothing more and she didn't ascend, she is dead in the ground and will remain dead until the resurrection. Learn the difference between protestant and catholic plox. .

Yet, Mary gave birth to God i.e Jesus...according to your own beliefs.

As for the difference between Catholics and protestants...
Catholics worship Mary (as you claimed)
You protestants turn Mary into the mother of God because of your belief that Jesus was God himself.

Ever wondered why BOTH jews and muslims(so called 'enemies') find christianity repulsive?

Its because some of you assign divinity to a man...and some of you claim that a man(Jesus) is God Himself.

No, the Catholics don't. You and lonewolf are both mistaken on that. The Catholics consider her a saint and venerate her, they do not "worship" her as "God" or "part of God."

Veneration of the saints, including Mary, is not worship. Catholics worship God alone.

adapted from Catholic Update Do Catholics Worship Images?
Stories and Prayers, by Teresita Scully

Do Catholics worship the saints? To worship someone is to acknowledge that the one who is worshiped is divine, is God. Sometimes we can confuse cultural gestures of reverence for gestures of worship. In doing so, we often judge not as God does, by what is in the heart, but rather by appearances (see Jn 8:15, Is 11:3).

Catholics hold saints in esteem because they are such wonderful images or mirrors of Christ. Paul several times exhorts his readers to be imitators of him: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, also Phil 3:17, 1 Cor 4:16).

Mary is the first saint, and holds high honor today, as she did in the early Church. Over the course of history, devotion to Mary has taken many forms, and even has been confused with worship. Church teaching has consistently placed Mary in the company of the saints, however.

from www.americancatholic.org... "Do Catholics Worship Mary?"

reply to post by wildtimes

No, the Catholics don't. You and lonewolf are both mistaken on that. The Catholics consider her a saint and venerate her, they do not "worship" her as "God" or "part of God."

If I'm wrong on the Catholics worshipping Mary, I humbly apologize for that.
I was using lonewolf19792000's claim that catholics worship Mary to make a certain point.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

His are...

Christian doctrine is not...

Yes i know you say the entire bible is based on Jesus... but it doesn't mean all Christian theology is accurate according to him

Can you then explain what Christian dogma you're speaking of specifically that goes against what Christ taught?

To name a few... the trinity..... Jesus is God in the flesh... And a recent little issue i've had with another member claiming christians are to follow mosaic law...

These are just a few that come to mind... i believe theres likely to many to count, and im hardly keeping track... I just play it like i see it

reply to post by colbe

windword, Our Lord wants you to become Catholic. I predict, before the
Millennium, the new time, you'll be Catholic.

HAHA! Colbe, so you do have a sense of humor! HA! I predict that at the same time I convert to Catholicism, you turn to reincarnation, Buddhism and New Age Whirling Dervish meditation!

Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

To name a few... the trinity.....

Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit and the Father are two different persons. That's two of the three right there.

Jesus is God in the flesh...

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

And a recent little issue i've had with another member claiming christians are to follow mosaic law...

I won't argue with you there on that point.

These are just a few that come to mind... i believe theres likely to many to count, and im hardly keeping track... I just play it like i see it

Those aren't contradictory at all. Can you think of any others you have confusion about?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit and the Father are two different persons. That's two of the three right there.

He also teaches that there are none greater then the Father, including himself... Your trinity teaches all three are equal, which is not what Jesus teaches...

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

Before abraham was everyone... We've all existed before the creation of the earth...

Those aren't contradictory at all. Can you think of any others you have confusion about?

I disagree... and im not confused about anything. I understand trinitarian beliefs and other christian sects as well... I just don't agree with them.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I was using lonewolf19792000's claim that catholics worship Mary to make a certain point.

Totally appreciate that...he is mistaken. I got your point.

reply to post by Akragon

He also teaches that there are none greater then the Father, including himself... Your trinity teaches all three are equal, which is not what Jesus teaches...

All three ARE equal. Equality doesn't mean "sameness". Husband and wife are equal, they are not the same.

Bro, you gotta look at what Lexicons have to say. For one thing, we are in a Hellenized Western culture, so sometimes things get lost in translation from one culture to another. Example: A Hebrew saying king David is "firstborn" even though he was the youngest of his brothers.

Okay, lets tackle what Jesus tried to convey to his disciples, that the Father was "greater" than He. In the first place, the Greek term for "greater" (meizon) does not necessarily imply one who is greater in nature or essence. It can refer to someone or something being greater in position and/or authority, just as the following passages show:

"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater (meizon) than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11

John being greater than all those born of women does not imply that the rest of the humans were less human than John, or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, the term must mean that John was greater in position and rank.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater (meizon) than his master, nor is one who is sent greater (meizon) than the one who sent him." John 13:16



The Father sent the Son, therefore the Father is greater.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Isn't that what i just said?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Isn't that what i just said?

No, that would be the exact opposite of what you said.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Im sorry i don't agree with what you're saying what so ever...

You're basically sayinng "greater" is the same thing as "precedes"...

God sent Jesus so God precedes him, even came first...

I believe your interpretation of what Jesus is actually saying is based on your ideology... not based on what he actually said...

Greater means GREATER... Larger... Of a greater degree then... etc etc...

And btw..

the Greek term for "greater" (meizon) does not necessarily imply one who is greater in nature or essence.

Jesus covered that too...

They are of the same essence/nature... But the Father is Greater then he.... And greater then ALL

reply to post by Akragon


That's the problem. You're defining "greater" in English from a Western culture. Instead of trying to figure out what "greater" meant in the Greek language it was written in and the Semitic culture it came from.

Jesus ALSO said of women, there was "none born greater than John."

So obviously Jesus meant that John was the strongest, most powerful human to ever been born? Even more powerful than Sampson??

That's why you need a Lexicon man, words change their meanings all the freakin time, so you need a tool that gives you the definition of the term at the time it was originally written.


PERFECT EXAMPLE:

Let's say the translators of the KJV put "gay" in the text every time the Greek said "happy". Imagine the threads that would be started then, with people like you are here, arguing that "gay obviously means a homosexual person, go Google what gay means."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's the problem. You're defining "greater" in English from a Western culture. Instead of trying to figure out what "greater" meant in the Greek language it was written in and the Semitic culture it came from.

I think the problem is you just don't want to admit you're wrong... Maybe you should tell me what word "should" be there... if it isn't what it says

Greater means greater in greek as well as hebrew... even in Aramaic apparently...
www.v-a.com...

Jesus ALSO said of women, there was "none born greater than John."

So obviously Jesus meant that John was the strongest, most powerful human to ever been born? Even more powerful than Sampson??

No, it means ANYONE in Gods kingdom is "greater" then John... read the entire verse...

28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

And in that context obviously its correct... Greater still means greater... It had nothing to do with strength.

silly...

That's why you need a Lexicon man, words change their meanings all the freakin time, so you need a tool that gives you the definition of the term at the time it was originally written.

I realize that... but not in this case... there are other words that Meizon can be inturpreated as... but when you use those words... the sentence makes no sense. And Equal...or anything close is not one of those words

reply to post by Akragon

No, it means ANYONE in Gods kingdom is "greater" then John... read the entire verse...

What do you mean, 'read the entire verse'? I copy/pasted the entire verse above,.. twice.

The Greek uses meizon twice in that verse. Once to say that there has never been born a man "greater" than John in the history of the world. Jesus also says that every person in the kingdom of heaven is "greater" than John.

Here we can clearly see that "greater than" is implying prestige or honor, not strength or power. So going BACK to our earlier discussion you said Jesus cannot be a member of the Trinity because He says the Father is "greater than" He is.

That's a statement of honor by Jesus. It's not meant to be implied that Jesus is saying He isn't God. Just in the same manner that everyone not named John the Baptist was any less of a "human" than John was.

Did you even read this;

All three ARE equal. Equality doesn't mean "sameness". Husband and wife are equal, they are not the same.