the author of Babylon Mystery changed his mind....

Bravo ~!!~

he discovered the Truth or at least part of it. Comparing similarities between paganism and Catholicism is stupid. You could do that with any belief and there are "some" similarities Protestant Christians accept.
Christianity is not the same as paganism. I included Revelation 22:16 at the bottom.

at the link, look to the right for the list of writings:

www.catholicthinker.net...
_ _ _

The author of "Babylon Mystery Religion" - one of the main, original sources alleging the "paganizing" of Catholicism from which *many* fundamentalist authors have drawn - changed his mind after learning the facts, displaying his intellectual honesty - his honest search for truth.
I'll repeat one long quote from Rev. Woodrow:


"My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches—and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church.
It is the same method atheists use in seeking to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Catholic Church. By this method, one also could condemn Protestant and Evangelical denominations such as the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist and Nazarene: Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.
By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, a city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, and tithes.
By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)."


In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.

Rev:22:16
I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star.

Actually pagan practices we're included in many Catholic holidays to get pagans more easily into religion.
Linking Babylonian symbolism in the McDonald arch, or many other company symbols is actually enforcing that paganism has never stopped being used by some of the elite.

Did he change his mind because he was threatened?

Yeah, I'll stay out of the Catholic/Paganism debate.

I will ask you, as a fellow believer, do you think the Catholic Church is a reflection of the first century church? I don't think so.

The average Catholic is a very good person willing to help others. I personally think Catholics are Christians, although I know quite a few "Christians" who believe otherwise.

On the other hand I think some--or even all--of the Popes and other "leaders" are in some very real danger come judgement day.

Then again, so am I barring mercy.

Your zealouness is admirable, Colbe, but you don't seem all that familiar with the Bible when it comes to Catholicism and your eagerness to accept some modern folk as Prophets.

The egg of Ishtar - Babylon

Easter eggs - Christian

Sorry to burst your lie, but paganism is rampant in Catholicism and the Vatican.
Truth and love is the way to God, don't be blinded by the deception.

Youve just pointed out the connections yourself.. they are just two roots of the same tree.

Originally posted by User8911
The egg of Ishtar - Babylon

Easter eggs - Christian

Sorry to burst your lie, but paganism is rampant in Christianity and the Vatican.
Truth and love is the way to God, don't be blinded by the deception.

Ooooh, the stubborn anti-Catholicism. The author and his anti-Catholic
book discovered just the opposite of what you are saying. You didn't
read the OP.

By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

This worn out protest is mute.

Originally posted by colbe
Ooooh, the stubborn anti-Catholicism.

I'm anti-religion because I don't believe God or Jesus wanted people to practice religion, they only want people to have faith and faith is not religion.

Originally posted by colbe

You didn't read the OP.

Originally posted by colbe
In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.

Yes I read that you think someone is incapable of intelligent reasoning if they think the catholic church was corrupted by paganism.

I personally think that paganism is closer to the Catholic religion then religion is close to God.

Originally posted by colbe
By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

Well it seems you don't know my thinking because Jesus was against religion but not against faith like I am.
That's what I think.

Originally posted by colbe
By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

Nope.

Christ was a Jew.

Christianity didn't come about until long after his death. Catholicism came hundreds of years after that when a Roman emperor made Christianity the main religion of the empire.

Pagan traditions were used in Christianity and still to this day (Easter eggs, Christmas trees, solstices etc).

You seem hell bent on trying to convert people to Catholicism and claiming it is the "true" religion by posting conversion threads, Bible quotes and arguing against common and evidence based facts instead of trying to talk about the true message of love and peace to all of mankind along with forgiveness and respect.

Catholicism is only the "true" religion to those who vehemently oppose the idea that other religions came before and that others have other ideals and belong to a different version of the "one god preaching love and kindness" thing.

The sooner you realise the error of your ways and start reaching out to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and others on this forum to show solidarity in faith instead of divisive "my religion is better than yours" comments and posts the better.

Maybe then gnostics and those unsure of their faith can be a lot more sure of themselves and what they believe in and the world (at least on ATS) would be a slightly better, more welcoming place.

reply to post by colbe

Comparing similarities between paganism and Catholicism is stupid. You could do that with any belief and there are "some" similarities Protestant Christians accept.

Indeed:

And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

In this biblical realm of prophecy and the like, harlotry/prostitution was symbolic of religious synchretism - the pollution of god's desired worship with paganism or the religious practices of the non-Israelites (reference the book Hosea).

One can absolutely draw the line straight from catholocism to the protestant and other derivative churches, as almost all of them have turned from the worship of god as He himself set forth, and replaced or infected it with practices originally stemming from foreign faiths and worship. In Exodus - I cannot find the verse now, but will search for it later upon request - he explicitly says not to worship him as the other people do their own gods.

Yet, to bring greater numbers into the church and ease the spread of christianity, catholocism (and by extension her daughters) forsook the holy days, times, and practices originally given to the Israelites and instead took up worship on the day of Sol Invictus (sunday). It replaced the Israelite High Holy days with days of pagan worship (Saturnalia, Eostre, and others). It accepted a change from the practice of naming all days of the week by their order to instead calling them in large part after pagan gods or tradition - seriously, google them sometime and see where our weekday names come from (we've got the usual pagan day of worship on the day of the sun, Tiw, Woden, Thor, Frigg, and Saturn - the more confusing stem from various languages and references to more common greek/roman gods).

And other adoptions have also taken place. Are all the original directives forsaken? Of course not. But are they polluted? Yes. And does Revelation 17 stack up fairly well in this and other lights with the Roman Catholic faith, and its various spin offs? Most certainly.

Granted, I am a confirmed Lutheran, but I do not actively practice aside from in my own private life. Of all named christian faiths, I am closest to the Seventh-Day Adventists, but even they (or at least some of their historic leaders) have their flaws.

For a good view on what the original christian faith was likely closest to, and what Christ most likely intended prior to the pollution of his message, look to the Ebionites - however unpopular that suggestion will be, and how much it will disagree with much of Paul's (perceived, at least) teaching that has been so readily adopted by christianity.

McDonalds golden arches are based on the St. Louis Arch right? So, you see, we do live in modern day babylon.
edkohout.com...

Originally posted by BACONHAWK
McDonalds golden arches are based on the St. Louis Arch right? So, you see, we do live in modern day babylon.
edkohout.com...

tee hee...good one.

Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by colbe
Ooooh, the stubborn anti-Catholicism.

I'm anti-religion because I don't believe God or Jesus wanted people to practice religion, they only want people to have faith and faith is not religion.

Originally posted by colbe

You didn't read the OP.

Originally posted by colbe
In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.

Yes I read that you think someone is incapable of intelligent reasoning if they think the catholic church was corrupted by paganism.

I personally think that paganism is closer to the Catholic religion then religion is close to God.

Originally posted by colbe
By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

Well it seems you don't know my thinking because Jesus was against religion but not against faith like I am.
That's what I think.

edit on 4-3-2012 by User8911 because: (no reason given)

There are "religions", they are all man-made, non-Christian included. There is one faith, see the difference? the faith comes from God, Jesus Christ. He established one Church, all that is needed.

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism....so...one Church.

Jesus was against man-made rules not the revelation given Man by the God the Father.

Do you see why it's going to take a divine act of God (the Great Warning) to bring Christianity to oneness of belief and the disbelievers to the faith?

Here you have a famous anti-Catholic author who wrote "Babyon Mystery Religion", admitting he got a wrong and the replies and comments are still Mr. Woodrow's old protest. Put it to rest. Mark it off your list of objections. Woodrow is so sure he doesn't want anymore copies of his book to go out.

The fact is clear. Again, the first from his quote. Mr. Woodrow said:


"My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches— and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church."...

There are obvious and, to me, rather grievous adaptions from paganism by the Roman Catholic Church. On the eschatological side of things, the Bible in the book of Revelations describes a specific institution, which the Roman Catholic Church eerily fits. The author offers a recantation for the fact that he feels that the similarities harmless, no shame there. However, Judeo-christian liturgical practices are specific to it. We can pick out the apples and oranges all day, but the fact of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church has adopted some of the central practices from idolatrous religions. Furthermore, I feel the author should clear his oraculous use of the word pagan.

Originally posted by curious7

Originally posted by colbe
By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

Nope.
Christ was a Jew.

Christianity didn't come about until long after his death. Catholicism came hundreds of years after that when a Roman emperor made Christianity the main religion of the empire.

Pagan traditions were used in Christianity and still to this day (Easter eggs, Christmas trees, solstices etc).

You seem hell bent on trying to convert people to Catholicism and claiming it is the "true" religion by posting conversion threads, Bible quotes and arguing against common and evidence based facts instead of trying to talk about the true message of love and peace to all of mankind along with forgiveness and respect.

Catholicism is only the "true" religion to those who vehemently oppose the idea that other religions came before and that others have other ideals and belong to a different version of the "one god preaching love and kindness" thing.

The sooner you realise the error of your ways and start reaching out to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and others on this forum to show solidarity in faith instead of divisive "my religion is better than yours" comments and posts the better.

Maybe then gnostics and those unsure of their faith can be a lot more sure of themselves and what they believe in and the world (at least on ATS) would be a slightly better, more welcoming place.

It is not nice to say "hell bent" in referring to me, your mock because you disagree.

I was directing my comments to someone who rejected the subject of the OP. By looking at similarities, so is non-Catholic Christianity. The same for any belief if you accept their examples and did you read, you could make the same claim about Our Lord. It's ridiculous, there is no connection between paganism and the faith. They are at opposites, Catholicism is divine in origin.

Jesus was born a Jew, who also as God came to establish God's New Covenant with mankind. There are bits of Jesus' teachings accepted by certain groups but only is the fullness of Our Lord's revelation in the New Covenant proclaimed by Catholicism, Christ's Church. Everyone else must come to belief even the non-Christian believers you spoke of.

Remember our discussion when the Great Warning happens. It will be your free will choice to accept God showing you personally what
I just stated.


God bless you curious7,

reply to post by colbe

In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.

Really? Have you ever been to the Vatican Museum? They have a bust of Janus the 2 faced roman pagan god. What would a so called "christian" church be doing with an idol that is forbidden in both the old and new testaments for believers to have?

Insulting someone's intelligence, how "christian" of you, very merciful of you in your hypocrisy. Did you know that christmas is really Saturnalia? Here's what Tertullian a true christian historian from the second century has to say about christmas:

"On your day of pagan gladness, we [Christians]
Neither cover our doorposts with wreaths...
You consider it a proper thing to decorate your
house like some new brothel...but we do not
celebrate along with you the holidays..."
-(Tertullian, (A.D. 155-220), 2001, p. 1176).
(quoted by David Bercot,
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs,
1998, p. 342).

December 25th was observed as a Holiday
long before Christ was born. In fact,
while Christ was still on the earth, both
he and his early followers were witness to
the Joyous merry-making of the Roman Saturnalia,
that occured every December. It is certain
that Jesus and his Apostles were able to see,
the gift-giving, the feasting, ane the decorating
of fir trees, during the Pagan Holidays of Rome.
The houses were decorated with Holly, Mistletoe,
and evergreen wreaths, on the very day that
mankind now claims is in honor of Christ.
Yet this was the pagan Saturnalia of Rome during
the celebration of the sun-god "Sol".

The Roman Catholic Church jumped right in bed with Nimrod. Nowonder she's called the "Whore of Babylon" in the book of Revelation, she jumped in bed with Satan and his paganism before her husband had been gone 2 hours by heavens reckoning , what a whore.

"December 25th was the day the Romans
celebrated the birth of their (pagan) sun-god."
-The Encyclopedia Americana,
vol. 6, pg. 623.

Sugarpie, you need to learn to do research instead of spouting your brainwashed liturgy and believing everything those Nephilim ghosts tell you. Those magic beads and magic water don't seem to help you any where. Neither does your Queen of Heaven Ishtar the Whore of Babylon

"to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan
masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient
to institute the 25th of December as the feast
of the birth of Christ...from the pagan feast,
celebrated on the same day in honor of the pagan god,
Mithras..."
-(Manual of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).

Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, he was born during the hebrew month of Tishri which falls between September and October. Nimrod was born on december 25th though. Who ya worshipping on december 25th if it ain't Jesus?

Luke 2:8-11 8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

So Jesus was born when the weather was still warm, this could be no later than October 15th because weather in Israel are extremes and shepherds could not have lived outdoors with their flocks in the dead of winter

. It's amazing what you can do when you know how to research.

"as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks,
it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet
commenced(begun), and that, consequently, our Lord
was NOT born on the 25th of December, when no flocks
were out in the fields; nor could He have been born
later than September, as the flocks were still in the
fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in
December should be given up. The feeding of the
flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact,
which casts considerable light upon this disputed point"
- (Adam Clarke's Commentary,
Abingdon Press, Nashville,
note on Luke 2:8). "ex]



The truth is, you worship Nimrod and Semiramis (Ishtar/Inanna) and their baby son Tammuz.

Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven

Your brand of christianity is called "Mithraism"

Source

edit on 4-3-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by curious7

Originally posted by colbe
By your thinking, Christ Himself is pagan.

Nope.
Christ was a Jew.

Christianity didn't come about until long after his death. Catholicism came hundreds of years after that when a Roman emperor made Christianity the main religion of the empire.

Pagan traditions were used in Christianity and still to this day (Easter eggs, Christmas trees, solstices etc).

You seem hell bent on trying to convert people to Catholicism and claiming it is the "true" religion by posting conversion threads, Bible quotes and arguing against common and evidence based facts instead of trying to talk about the true message of love and peace to all of mankind along with forgiveness and respect.

Catholicism is only the "true" religion to those who vehemently oppose the idea that other religions came before and that others have other ideals and belong to a different version of the "one god preaching love and kindness" thing.

The sooner you realise the error of your ways and start reaching out to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and others on this forum to show solidarity in faith instead of divisive "my religion is better than yours" comments and posts the better.

Maybe then gnostics and those unsure of their faith can be a lot more sure of themselves and what they believe in and the world (at least on ATS) would be a slightly better, more welcoming place.

It is not nice to say "hell bent" in referring to me, your mock because you disagree.

I was directing my comments to someone who rejected the subject of the OP. By looking at similarities, so is non-Catholic Christianity. The same for any belief if you accept their examples and did you read, you could make the same claim about Our Lord. It's ridiculous, there is no connection between paganism and the faith. They are at opposites, Catholicism is divine in origin.

Jesus was born a Jew, who also as God came to establish God's New Covenant with mankind. There are bits of Jesus' teachings accepted by certain groups but only is the fullness of Our Lord's revelation in the New Covenant proclaimed by Catholicism, Christ's Church. Everyone else must come to belief even the non-Christian believers you spoke of.

Remember our discussion when the Great Warning happens. It will be your free will choice to accept God showing you personally what
I just stated.


God bless you curious7,

I wasn't mocking at all, I'm just trying to show you that you're completely wrong.

You can believe in Catholicism, that's fine, good for you. Just like others can believe in Judaism, Islam, Scientology, whatever speaks to them best.

The problem is, the likes of you are trying to convert people into your belief system instead of saying "look brother/sister, I have my beliefs, you have yours but lets not fight over who is right and wrong. Lets instead join together in a solidarity of faith and show others what it means to be blessed by our faith."

Wouldn't that make more sense to follow?

Whether it's God, Yeshua, Yahweh, Allah, whatever. Still the same thing when it comes down to it and I'm sure that God (lets call it God and disregard labeling with gender restrictions if it's all powerful and knowing) would much prefer people to be showing peace and togetherness as a species than fighting and trying to convert because of a silly man-made concept like religion.

Originally posted by The GUT
Yeah, I'll stay out of the Catholic/Paganism debate.

I will ask you, as a fellow believer, do you think the Catholic Church is a reflection of the first century church? I don't think so.

The average Catholic is a very good person willing to help others. I personally think Catholics are Christians, although I know quite a few "Christians" who believe otherwise.

On the other hand I think some--or even all--of the Popes and other "leaders" are in some very real danger come judgement day.

Then again, so am I barring mercy.

Your zealouness is admirable, Colbe, but you don't seem all that familiar with the Bible when it comes to Catholicism and your eagerness to accept some modern folk as Prophets.

Hi TG, thanks for your kind reply.


If disbelievers would look at the quotes of the first Christians, they would
see their beliefs are the same as the Church teaches today. The trouble
in our time is the loss of believing what the Church teaches.

A comment on your saying "all of the Popes"....

There have been a couple of bad popes, they're known as non-popes.
They were not duly elected. Christ said in Matthew 16:18, He would
not leave His Church. We can trust the Holy Father's guidance.

We know from prophecy and can see Satan has infiltrated the Church, meaning some of the hierarchy in the Vatican (Pope Paul VI's warning). There is the loss of faith by all Christians, look at the denial about the sin
of contraception in the news so not just Catholic. The loss of faith and morals worldwide these last fifty years is terrible but Satan will not win. It will look like he has...

There have scandals and schisms all throughout human history, so what, man has a fallen sinful nature. It is God guiding His Church in this end of time once again while some "fallen men" directed by Satan attempt to destroy her. The Church, like Our Lord, her crucifixion is soon.

With the loss of faith, what can Heaven do but speak through modern
prophets? And Heaven has. I owe my conversion/reversion to one of Mary's messages given through a prophet in the U.S.

Prophecy makes established written and oral divine revelation more explicit. Look to Church teaching, to all of the faith which includes Holy Scripture, to the prophetic, approved and unapproved, to the grace of the Sacraments, most important for your soul, the Eucharist and Confession.
Protestants, the Orthodox, non-Christians will convert at the Great
Warning. They must persevere then, all of us must through the Great Tribulation.

Oops, I am going on and....you're in the choir. I am really very traditional.
If I could change it, there would be only one Mass, the Tridentine Mass.

reply to post by curious7



"I wasn't mocking at all, I'm just trying to show you that you're completely wrong. You can believe in Catholicism, that's fine, good for you. Just like others can believe in Judaism, Islam, Scientology, whatever speaks to them best."

Curious7,

I apologize to you. "Mocking" was not the right word. I felt "hell bent" was harsh. Your words underlined...

Relativism is believing whatever a person finds to be true, is true. How
is that? God's revealed one plan so all those personal beliefs amount
to zip. They might contain a tiny bit of God's plan for His creation by
why accept so little? You are limited, waylaid, so you could easily lose your soul.

The world has gone so far away from God that He in this time will attempt
to bring us back to Him. Prophecy does not say Our Lord is
returning "soon" to tell the world, all is fine, you can believe what you want. And imagine Protestantism...which of the 38,000 sects in Protestantism is Christ going to reveal to the world to be His true Church?

Nonsense, a house divided falls. Prophecy, Scripture, the saints are explicit about God's end time plan. The Protestant prophetic is gently
preparing our brothers and sisters, if God spelled it out to them now,
they pridefully would reject their own prophecy. It has to be something major and it's going to be. It's the Second Pentecost but worldwide this time.

I am saying....that's what the messages, Protestant and Catholic state.

a typo....sorry.

"by" should be "but"....

"They might contain a tiny bit of God's plan for His creation but why
accept so little?"